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Okay. Swarmlord kills 5 marines leaving no one in base to base with the tyrant guard. The guard would pile in at the next step. But they are not I'm base to base with anything? Do they still pile in? Is combat over? We're doing a game right now and can't find solid rules on this. Any help would be awesome. Thanks. Dan.

They still pile-in unless the pile-in move isn't enough to get into base contract. Then combat is over.

Happyjew wrote:
They still pile-in unless the pile-in move isn't enough to get into base contract. Then combat is over.

Can you point me to some rules that say they still get to do the I step. The chaos deamon guy I am playing is saying they can't pile in.

Top of pg 23.

He is saying the who can fight says they don't get their pile in because on page 22 Init step in bold. The question is. Are they still engaged in combat because based on the rules as written it would seem they are no longer "engaged" when it would be their turn.

Sounds like your friend is a bit of a tool. Combat is only over when, after all pile ins are made, no one can get into b2b. Or when someone wins / makes a fallback move.

You do not determine the status of "are these two units engaged in a close combat" when breaking down initiative steps, UNLESS no one can reach b2b (after all pile ins). You only determine who is eligible to swing.

This is very clearly explained on page 23.

Ex: Daemon Prince with I5 charges a squad of marines and on his Init kills all models in base contact. On the marines turn, the unit is still engaged, and must pile in 3" towards the daemon prince. Only if no-one can reach b2b is the combat ended.

Stormbreed wrote:
Okay. Swarmlord kills 5 marines leaving no one in base to base with the tyrant guard. The guard would pile in at the next step. But they are not I'm base to base with anything? Do they still pile in? Is combat over? We're doing a game right now and can't find solid rules on this. Any help would be awesome. Thanks. Dan.

If the tyrant guard's initiative is 4 and there are some space marines left(I am not looking up tyrant guard cos it doesn't matter), if they can make it into b2b when both move ie are within 6" of one another. If they are different initiative values and whoever comes after the swarmlord cannot make it into b2b with any opponent the combat ends. If you cannot reach b2b it's like a failed charge.

I guess he believes nowhere in the rules does it say that after the model is removed there is anything in Combat still so no one would then get a pile in.

If in CC once all models are killed within BB do the guys at a lower Int get a pile in?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Okay. Swarmlord kills 5 marines leaving no one in base to base with the tyrant guard. The guard would pile in at the next step. But they are not I'm base to base with anything? Do they still pile in? Is combat over? We're doing a game right now and can't find solid rules on this. Any help would be awesome. Thanks. Dan.

If the tyrant guard's initiative is 4 and there are some space marines left(I am not looking up tyrant guard cos it doesn't matter), if they can make it into b2b when both move ie are within 6" of one another. If they are different initiative values and whoever comes after the swarmlord cannot make it into b2b with any opponent the combat ends. If you cannot reach b2b it's like a failed charge.

Just to be clear, you are saying that if I4 marines can't get to b2b but the I1 PF sarge can then combat is over before he gets to pile in?

 Boneblade wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Okay. Swarmlord kills 5 marines leaving no one in base to base with the tyrant guard. The guard would pile in at the next step. But they are not I'm base to base with anything? Do they still pile in? Is combat over? We're doing a game right now and can't find solid rules on this. Any help would be awesome. Thanks. Dan.

If the tyrant guard's initiative is 4 and there are some space marines left(I am not looking up tyrant guard cos it doesn't matter), if they can make it into b2b when both move ie are within 6" of one another. If they are different initiative values and whoever comes after the swarmlord cannot make it into b2b with any opponent the combat ends. If you cannot reach b2b it's like a failed charge.

Just to be clear, you are saying that if I4 marines can't get to b2b but the I1 PF sarge can then combat is over before he gets to pile in?

Basically later in the game (now over) I lost based on this rule basically.

Imagine Tyranid Prime and crew charging, his lash wip brings the first 3 to I1, and he kills them outright.

According to the way he wanted to play the rules, combat is now over, he did not get to hit back and the other warriors didn't attack either. We just finished smiling at one another inches apart.

Basically RAW to him said pile in can only be done by units that are within 2" of "Units in Combat"

Basically if, at any given initiative value, the 3 inch pile in move is not enough to get any models into Base Contact then combat ends and the remaining initiative values are lost and combat ends determining assault results as normal.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Basically if, at any given initiative value, the 3 inch pile in move is not enough to get any models into Base Contact then combat ends and the remaining initiative values are lost and combat ends determining assault results as normal.

Agreed. I just don't know where it says that. The only rule on pile in we could find said units that are within 2inches of units engaged in combat. If the I6 guy had killed what he was touching is he still "in combat"?

It says that on Page 23, Left Column, 6th graph, 2nd sentence.

"If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end."

They say 6" because both players can make pile in moves, of 3" each, at any given initiative if they have the same Initiative step.

But if only 1 side has models moving at an initiative step then it is a total of 3" of course.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says that on Page 23, Left Column, 6th graph, 2nd sentence.

"If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end."

They say 6" because both players can make pile in moves, of 3" each, at any given initiative if they have the same Initiative step.

But if only 1 side has models moving at an initiative step then it is a total of 3" of course.

While sensible, the context of "at any given initiative is yours, not RAW. You even say that at a given initiative it might only be 3" whereas the book clearly defines a combined 6" WILL be used before you can declare that combat is over.

Except that there is no combined move if one side has models striking at I6 and one side does not.

If both sides have models striking at I4 then if both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the combat ends.

Look at the context of the paragraph:

"When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first" (23)

The first sentence assumes both players have models moving at the same time. Thus it says 6 inches.

 Boneblade wrote:

While sensible, the context of "at any given initiative is yours, not RAW. You even say that at a given initiative it might only be 3" whereas the book clearly defines a combined 6" WILL be used before you can declare that combat is over.

except in this case its only 3" because the opposing player cannot make a pile in move. (only one model and it was the initial charger) so the player being assaulted can only move 3". 6" is not factored anywhere in this particular case because at no point is there an opposing unit that can make and initiative step pile in move of 3".

Hmm double post

this isn't hoarmachine your engaged until someone fails a moral roll and runs or dies.

Azrell wrote:
this isn't hoarmachine your engaged until someone fails a moral roll and runs or dies.

Or until a Pile-In fails to get anyone into btb.

This answers all my questions.

Basically to go back to what I had said.

Once swarmlord had killed the 4 Choas in B2B contact, the tyrant guard still would have got their 3inch pile in move. They make it into combat and then the chaos guys would get there 3inch pile in.
he
Had the Tyrant Guard not been able to get into B2B then the combat would end, and then both sides would once more pile in to try and get into B2B for the next turn.

The real rule side that I see missing is where it actually says the tyrant guard would get their I Pile in, if, Swarmlord was not in B2B with anyone. Obviously in terms of how the games "plays" in our minds the TG would just fly into battle as well, my chaos enemy was using the RAW to say you only get an I Pile in if you are within 2" of something locked in combat, and under locked in combat it states they are in B2B contact, thus once the swamlord was no longer in B2B then he wasn't "locked" and tin turn the Tyrant Guard couldn't use the I Pile in.....

Ughhhh, either way they still would have all ended up in combat because once combat ends they would have piled in. Which would have saved poor swarmy from being deamon fire deathed
:(

Thanks for all the replies guys.

This is incredibly flawed logic.

Your version:
Abaddon kills all models in b2b on I6
Marines on I4 never even try to pile in because combat is "broken" before their initiative step is reached
No pile in moves are made and the entire rule is IGNORED

My version:
Marines are in the next initiative step and pile in 3" but cannot reach b2b
Now plague marines are in the I3 initiative step and with a 3" pile in move (combined 6" with marines) one or more model reachs base contact and combat may continue

 Boneblade wrote:

This is incredibly flawed logic.

Your version:
Abaddon kills all models in b2b on I6
Marines on I4 never even try to pile in because combat is "broken" before their initiative step is reached
No pile in moves are made and the entire rule is IGNORED

My version:
Marines are in the next initiative step and pile in 3" but cannot reach b2b
Now plague marines are in the I3 initiative step and with a 3" pile in move (combined 6" with marines) one or more model reachs base contact and combat may continue

Rules version:
Abaddon kills all modesl in b2b on I6.
Marines fail to make it into b2b on I4, combat ends.
pg 23 read it.

I've read it. The emphasis on checking by initiative step is yours. Nowhere doesn't say magically check the "next initiative step" for a pile in and then specify you refuse another perfectly equal initiative step the same opportunity.

Except to blatantly state that you should get a combined (BOTH SIDES) move of 6" and therefore breaking combat will be very unlikely. Not an every game occurrence because most situations will produce close combats where models have different init values.

So even "if both players pile in moves combined" are insufficient to bring the combatants back into b2b, you don't throw out the rest of the initiative steps as you are told to do on pg23?

If you cannot make the marines at I4 into combat, whatever goes at I3 cannot make a pile in or attack simple as. If there were more models at I4 that could make the gap and continue the fight then ok cool but where does that happen in your example?

Combat works by initiative steps. You don't say the combat is over when abaddon crushes the unit, you say it is over when nobody can make it into b2b. You also don't get to move the I4 models 3", then the I3 models their 3" to try to make it back into b2b, you only get to try with the next initiative step down the ladder which is I4 in the above example.

When the combat ends you move on to the combat resolution step, it's like when a riot breaks away from the police line. The rioters pull back their people the police drag back anyone that is down and zip tie them. Then people either rush back into the fray or run away. What happens is that the units are now 3" from one another and have the opportunity to assault or shoot or move away in the next player turns assuming their is not an SA.

 Boneblade wrote:
I've read it. The emphasis on checking by initiative step is yours. Nowhere doesn't say magically check the "next initiative step" for a pile in and then specify you refuse another perfectly equal initiative step the same opportunity.

Except to blatantly state that you should get a combined (BOTH SIDES) move of 6" and therefore breaking combat will be very unlikely. Not an every game occurrence because most situations will produce close combats where models have different init values.

you get a "combined (BOTH SIDES) move of 6"" if both sides have Pile in moves to make at that Initiative step.

Do not ignore the bold part of that paragraph.

"When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first" (23)

The first sentence assumes both players have models moving at the same time. Thus it says 6 inches.

Sometimes this is not the case.

Tool


So init steps are there for a reason. Since he killed enough to keep his lower init step dudes out of combat I say your turn go smash him

Lungpickle wrote:
Tool


So init steps are there for a reason. Since he killed enough to keep his lower init step dudes out of combat I say your turn go smash him

No. no.... shoot him then smash him !

Don't forget pg 23 states that after all initiative steps are lost, work out assault results as per pg 26. If your thenopponent doesn't break, you then make an end of combat pile in. This may have allowed you to pile in with your swarmlord, and therefore your TG pile in and you are locked in combat

I concede the point. It does in fact appear that the pile-ins would skip my theoretical plague marines. I just found it very counter intuitive that inflicting "too much" damage against the enemy unit would prevent other members of my unit from participating in the assault.

However, I suppose this is well compensated by the fact that the assaulting unit does get the benefit of the original charge move (2-12") as well as any sweeping advance or end of combat pile in which may occur as a result of the enemy unit trying to leave combat.