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I can't find a reason that sweeping advances would not work outside of assualt. We were talking about it on the Hive and I wanted to see what Dakka thought.

So a unit is locked in CC. In the movement phase a psyker uses Terrify on a unit (other than one that has ATSKNF). It casues a morale test to avoid Falling Back. IF it fails then the unit it is in CC with should be able to get a sweeping advance to try and wipe out the unit. That unit can then get its consolidation move. Then it can make it's normal move as it is still the movement phase (and charge in the assault phase too.)

Here are some other situations I can see that can cause out of Assault Fall Back moves.

Spore mine wanders into the back of a unit and casues causalties that drop it below 25%.
Blast marker scatters so it lands on a unit in CC and casues causalties that drop it below 25%.
Mawloc uses TftD and hits a unit in CC and drops it below 25%.

I am sure there are others.

The only restriction i would get from reading the BRB would be this under sweeping advances:

"When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a SA, attempting to cut down their fleeing foes"

Here you might interpret falling back from combat as a result of the combat not an outside wound source however this might be RAI. So moving on it states that the victors make a SA however as the combat hasn't started yet there are no victors since both units have scored 0 wounds on each other.

In the 2nd paragraph even says the winning unit roll again if they fall back from an external source there isn't a winning unit on the cc atm to roll against their I. You might however charge them as they are falling back and if they fail their Ld again get destroyed.

Considering all of that is under the "Determine Assault Results" heading, I'd say you can't SA outside of assault resolution.

The issue is that if a unit in combat has its status changed to Falling Back it must fall back. They are locked in combat so I can not see how they could not Fall Back without triggering a Sweeping Advance.

Just becasue it is not from Combat Resolution doesn't stop it from being a unit Falling Back out of combat. Even the rule Lord Yayula quoted does not state what caused the unit to Fall Back, just that "When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a SA, attempting to cut down their fleeing foes"

Does not say only from Combat Resolution, just says falls back from combat.

 Gloomfang wrote:
The issue is that if a unit in combat has its status changed to Falling Back it must fall back. They are locked in combat so I can not see how they could not Fall Back without triggering a Sweeping Advance.

Just becasue it is not from Combat Resolution doesn't stop it from being a unit Falling Back out of combat. Even the rule Lord Yayula quoted does not state what caused the unit to Fall Back, just that "When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a SA, attempting to cut down their fleeing foes"

Does not say only from Combat Resolution, just says falls back from combat.

The point I'm getting at is that all the rules allowing for a sweeping advance, and sweeping advance itself, fall under the "Determine Assault Results" section. If you're moving out of assault in the movement phase then you can't do a sweeping advance as that takes place in the assault phase only. Even the "Our Weapons Won't Work" or whatever it's called is done during the assault phase and I'm pretty sure they make note to mention it does trigger SA as normal.

Anyway, just saying that to me it appears that SA can only be done during the assault phase because it appears, to me, that is the only time you're given permission to test for it. You're correct in that it doesn't matter the source causing the fall back move, but it does have to happen during the assault phase.

Also, the "Falls Back from Combat" statement is still under the main heading of "Determining Assault Results". Everything under that heading up to "Multiple Combats" is a sub-heading for Determining Assault Results.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Anyway, just saying that to me it appears that SA can only be done during the assault phase because it appears, to me, that is the only time you're given permission to test for it. You're correct in that it doesn't matter the source causing the fall back move, but it does have to happen during the assault phase.

I think that is the issue right there in what you said. There is not a test for a Sweeping Advance other than to see if you catch and kill the models that are Fleeing. Permission to test for a Sweeping Advance is given whenever a unit it is in CC with Falls Back.

What section the rule is in is kinda irelavent as they will put it in the section that applies 90% of the time becasue they have to put it someplace.

But how do you determine the winner?

The determine assault results section tells us how to do this.

Who won the combat? (Remember the determine assault results section tells us how to find this information).P.26

 DeathReaper wrote:
But how do you determine the winner?

The determine assault results section tells us how to do this.

Who won the combat? (Remember the determine assault results section tells us how to find this information).P.26

No one wins the combat. It is not applicable.

Many things can cause a unit to take a morale check and Fall Back. If the unit Falls Back from CC the unit it is in combat with can perform a Sweeping Advance per the Sweeping Advance rules. Follow the rules as normal for Sweeping Advance to see if the fleeing unit is caught and destroyed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a quick follow up question for the folks that say you do not get to do a Sweeping Advance outside of Assault.

Outside of Assualt (per your argument) you can not Fall Back out of Assault as that is the only time you have permission to move out of CC. (otherwise you are locked in combat).

However the rules for Falling Back state that if a unit can not Fall Back they are Trapped! and destroyed. As they have no permission to leave CC does that make them fall under the rules for Trapped!?

Per pg.26 "When a unit falls back from combat, THE VICTORS make a sweeping advance." Also "When a sweeping advance is performed both the unit falling back and THE WINNING UNIT roll a d6..."
By your own admission there is no winner or victor in this situation, so the unit falling back rolls a d6, but no one else does.

To answer your follow up, pg. 30 is pretty clear under trapped, and is would certainly apply, but take of the passage just above "Models falling back from CC can freely move through ALL enemy models that were involved in that combat (that missed there chance to catch them)..." No one has had a chance to catch them here.

NeoParn wrote:
Per pg.26 "When a unit falls back from combat, THE VICTORS make a sweeping advance." Also "When a sweeping advance is performed both the unit falling back and THE WINNING UNIT roll a d6..."
By your own admission there is no winner or victor in this situation, so the unit falling back rolls a d6, but no one else does.

You are quoting from the rules for combat resolution. I am asking what happens to a unit Falling Back for reasons outside of Combat Resolution.

To answer your follow up, pg. 30 is pretty clear under trapped, and is would certainly apply, but take of the passage just above "Models falling back from CC can freely move through ALL enemy models that were involved in that combat (that missed there chance to catch them)..." No one has had a chance to catch them here.

By your own rules posted they are destroyed.
As no models had a chance to catch them then they can not fall back through ANY enemy models. They can only move freely through enemy models that missed thier chance to catch them. That would make them Trapped!.

Gloomfang wrote:

NeoParn wrote:Per pg.26 "When a unit falls back from combat, THE VICTORS make a sweeping advance." Also "When a sweeping advance is performed both the unit falling back and THE WINNING UNIT roll a d6..."
By your own admission there is no winner or victor in this situation, so the unit falling back rolls a d6, but no one else does.

You are quoting from the rules for combat resolution. I am asking what happens to a unit Falling Back for reasons outside of Combat Resolution.

SA does not happen for that reason.

The rules about SA are from combat res and the winning unit gets to do it.

No winning unit, no one can SA.

 DeathReaper wrote:
SA does not happen for that reason.

The rules about SA are from combat res and the winning unit gets to do it.

No winning unit, no one can SA.

Just to be clear this is what you are basically saying.

"Sweeping Advances can only happen when a unit breaks after failing a morale check and Falling Back when they lose combat."

I will take momentaraly accept that as a Prima Facie argument.

Then, per your understanding of the rules happens under each circumstance.

1) The original question about having a unit in CC fail a morale check from Terrify during the Movement phase.
2) A scattered blast marker that reduces the unit below 25% during the shooting phase and fails its morale check during the Shooting Phase.

Specificaly:
What rules goven Falling Back when locked into CC outside of the assault phase?
What rules give the unit attempting to Fall Back premission to leave combat outside of those found within the Combat Resolution section.

I thought you never take a Morale test due to 25% casualties when locked in combat, but I'm away from boss at the moment.

It's like this, the rules for NORMAL UNITS falling back (not special rules or unit types) are only mentioned on pages 20, 26, 27 & 28 (All the assault phase, specifically Assault Results) and 30-31 (morale).; Sweeping advance (again for normal units) is only on 26-28 under Assault Results.
So, the original question; terrify targets a unit in CC:
1) Deny The Witch roll fails
2) Pg 29 covered how and when to make a morale check, PG 30 tells us what do do when the morale check fails
3) They roll a morale check per Terrify, and they fail
4) pg.30 again tells us how they must fall back, and as I was saying, they can not move through any enemy models when they do so

((Correction))
For shooting blasts it's quite different:
1) Target unit looses 25% or more in shooting phase
2) Pg 28, Units locked in CC do not take Morale checks or pinning tests caused by shooting.

That's it. As Sweeping advance is only mentioned in Assault resolution (not part of this sequence in the movement phase) and all of its language is dependent on who "won" or "lost" the assault your resolving.

I can't find any other rules relevant here, that would permit a sweeping advance outside of the assault phase or by a unit who did not win an assault.

This is the same thread from a bit ago.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469426.page#4647582

@Neoparn
so they are Trapped! and destroyed as they can not move without coming within 1" of an enemy model (as they have to be in BtB or they would not be in combat in the first place.

Edit:A good catch on the shooting and CC. Missed that. So Terrify is about the only thing.

Fragile wrote:
This is the same thread from a bit ago.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469426.page#4647582

And that one also wasn't really resolved.

I would personally stand firm that it would not trigger a sweeping advance as per the rulebook it's listed under the assault phase section only and more specifically it's listed under the assault resolution section of that.

I see people on here using what section of the book a rule is in to denote when that rule is supposed to come in play so I see no difference here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gloomfang wrote:
@Neoparn
so they are Trapped! and destroyed as they can not move without coming within 1" of an enemy model (as they have to be in BtB or they would not be in combat in the first place.

Edit:A good catch on the shooting and CC. Missed that. So Terrify is about the only thing.

Are you saying they'd be Trapped! because they started their fall back move in b2b with an enemy?

 Gloomfang wrote:
@Neoparn
so they are Trapped! and destroyed as they can not move without coming within 1" of an enemy model (as they have to be in BtB or they would not be in combat in the first place.

Edit:A good catch on the shooting and CC. Missed that. So Terrify is about the only thing.

This is possible, and you could certainly engineer a situation where that happens (analogous to surrounding a transport to make disembarkation impossible) but it is not automatic. The units falling back STARTS in B2B, but then it is allowed to move 2d6" and is allowed to move AROUND enemy models as long as they don't stop within 1" of them. So:
XXXX
0000

The 0's are not trapped since they can move away/around

XXXXXX
X0000X
XXXXXX

The 0's are surround, since they can't move through anyone and aren't automatically bumped 1" away in this scenario. You could sandwich them against impassable terrain instead, just make sure your units basses are too close together for the opponents basses to fit between or move around.

NeoParn wrote:
IThat's it. As Sweeping advance is only mentioned in Assault resolution (not part of this sequence in the movement phase) and all of its language is dependent on who "won" or "lost" the assault your resolving.

I can't find any other rules relevant here, that would permit a sweeping advance outside of the assault phase or by a unit who did not win an assault.

The "winning side" is not the trigger for SA. SA is triggered by a unit falling back from CC. Pg. 26 "When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a SA."

"falls back" is from failing the morale check. Pg29. "If the results is higher than their LD, ...... the unit will immediately Fall Back."

Now in the case of CC, the rules state that the losing side must make a Morale Check "Pg26."

Losing combat causes a Morale Check.

Failing a Morale Check causes a Fall Back.

Falling back from Close Combat causes a Sweeping Advance.

Fragile wrote:

NeoParn wrote:
IThat's it. As Sweeping advance is only mentioned in Assault resolution (not part of this sequence in the movement phase) and all of its language is dependent on who "won" or "lost" the assault your resolving.

I can't find any other rules relevant here, that would permit a sweeping advance outside of the assault phase or by a unit who did not win an assault.

The "winning side" is not the trigger for SA. SA is triggered by a unit falling back from CC. Pg. 26 "When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a SA."

"falls back" is from failing the morale check. Pg29. "If the results is higher than their LD, ...... the unit will immediately Fall Back."

Now in the case of CC, the rules state that the losing side must make a Morale Check "Pg26."

Losing combat causes a Morale Check.

Failing a Morale Check causes a Fall Back.

Falling back from Close Combat causes a Sweeping Advance.

NeoParn wrote:
Per pg.26 "When a unit falls back from combat, THE VICTORS make a sweeping advance." Also "When a sweeping advance is performed both the unit falling back and THE WINNING UNIT roll a d6..."
By your own admission there is no winner or victor in this situation, so the unit falling back rolls a d6, but no one else does.

Triggering is not something WE disagree about.

It seems that what we ARE disagreeing about: Are everyone involved in combat during the movement phase ; who has not been forced to fall back by a malediction, considered the winner of that close combat. This is because only units who have won close combat can roll a d6 to catch the unit falling back.

Deleted by User.

The terms winners / losers is carrying over from the Determine results paragraphs. RAW it works, but I dont think it will stand to a FAQ, since GW made a point to state that Morale checks didnt happen as a result of shooting, (probably to avoid this situation).

How the models falls back makes no difference. They fell back which is the trigger for the Sweeping Advance rule.

As with the Psyker power Terrify, I could just as easily shoot a group near two units locked in combat with a Tesla Destructor, ark to them and if I caused 25% casualties, you would still have to make a moral check. If you failed it, I (and I highly doubt this would happen with an I2) could possibly Sweeping Advance your guys as they are falling back; This time in the Shooting Phase.

@Kevin
Basically yes. The rules for Falling Back do not allow you to become unlocked from combat. That forces you to be within 1"of an enemy modle. Eating dinner with my son, i will check for pg rerences when i get home.

Xzerios wrote:
As with the Psyker power Terrify, I could just as easily shoot a group near two units locked in combat with a Tesla Destructor, ark to them and if I caused 25% casualties, you would still have to make a moral check..

I'm curious as to where you get the underlined, as the very last paragraph on page 28 seems to disagree with you.

Xzerios wrote:
How the models falls back makes no difference. They fell back which is the trigger for the Sweeping Advance rule.

As with the Psyker power Terrify, I could just as easily shoot a group near two units locked in combat with a Tesla Destructor, ark to them and if I caused 25% casualties, you would still have to make a moral check. If you failed it, I (and I highly doubt this would happen with an I2) could possibly Sweeping Advance your guys as they are falling back; This time in the Shooting Phase.

NeoParn wrote:

...For shooting blasts it's quite different:
1) Target unit looses 25% or more in shooting phase
2) Pg 28, Units locked in CC do not take Morale checks or pinning tests caused by shooting.

Fragile wrote:
...GW made a point to state that Morale checks didnt happen as a result of shooting, (probably to avoid this situation).

QFT

I expect an FAQ regarding psychic powers, hopefully soon.

Oh, I see it and you stand corrected. Ill concede the Arking aspect, however, it still stands that the trigger for Sweeping Advances is a unit falling back that was locked in Close Combat.

Xzerios wrote:
Oh, I see it and you stand corrected. Ill concede the Arking aspect, however, it still stands that the trigger for Sweeping Advances is a unit falling back that was locked in Close Combat.

NeoParn wrote:

Fragile wrote:

NeoParn wrote:
IThat's it. As Sweeping advance is only mentioned in Assault resolution (not part of this sequence in the movement phase) and all of its language is dependent on who "won" or "lost" the assault your resolving.

I can't find any other rules relevant here, that would permit a sweeping advance outside of the assault phase or by a unit who did not win an assault.

The "winning side" is not the trigger for SA. SA is triggered by a unit falling back from CC. Pg. 26 "When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a SA."

"falls back" is from failing the morale check. Pg29. "If the results is higher than their LD, ...... the unit will immediately Fall Back."

Now in the case of CC, the rules state that the losing side must make a Morale Check "Pg26."

Losing combat causes a Morale Check.

Failing a Morale Check causes a Fall Back.

Falling back from Close Combat causes a Sweeping Advance.

NeoParn wrote:
Per pg.26 "When a unit falls back from combat, THE VICTORS make a sweeping advance." Also "When a sweeping advance is performed both the unit falling back and THE WINNING UNIT roll a d6..."
By your own admission there is no winner or victor in this situation, so the unit falling back rolls a d6, but no one else does.

Triggering is not something WE disagree about.

It seems that what we ARE disagreeing about: Are everyone involved in combat during the movement phase ; who has not been forced to fall back by a malediction, considered the winner of that close combat. This is because only units who have won close combat can roll a d6 to catch the unit falling back.

I can find rules on pg. 26 that define who the winner is, and then what that winner may do and it involves actions that happen in the assault phase. Can you point me to any pages/rules that allow you to declare a unit to be "the winning unit" at some other time or for some other reason?

Um, guys? If a unit falls back from close combat, they ignore enemy models in the same combat. Page 30, right column, first paragraph. You're not going to trap them that way.

For those still arguing for sweeping: It's not enough that the falling back unit is eligible to be swept. There must also be a unit that is eligible to sweep them. Even granting the former, there's no way in this scenario to have the latter.

NeoParn wrote:
I can find rules on pg. 26 that define who the winner is, and then what that winner may do and it involves actions that happen in the assault phase. Can you point me to any pages/rules that allow you to declare a unit to be "the winning unit" at some other time or for some other reason?

So, tell me then, what would happen to tje unit that fell back from a combat during the movement phase? They cant fall back because again, thats the trigger for Sweeping Advacnes *more so; You can only fall back during the Sub-Fight Phase by your logic*. They cant be allowed to disengage freely because the unit doesnt have Hit and Run.

Explain your reason.