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Does BL auto hit flyers?

No, as you cannot snap shot anything that does not require a BS.

Happyjew wrote:
No, as you cannot snap shot anything that does not require a BS.

Just going to put this out there for debate,

With Blood Lance, you are never resolving a shot at a zooming Flyer per the rules for Hard to Hit so you are never in fact taking a Snap Shot.

I'm fine with Blood Lance hitting flyers, as long as my vibro cannons can.

Happyjew wrote:
I'm fine with Blood Lance hitting flyers, as long as my vibro cannons can.

I have no problem with either as I don't play flyers in the first place....hahaha. However it has become a kneejerk reaction to bring up Snap Shot immediately without taking into consideration how certain shooting attacks work outside of the normal rules for shooting.

Should the 4D6 line cross under a flier, you would then check to see if your model has the Skyfire rule as your shot is going to be resolved as a snap shot against it. If you have the Skyfire rule, you would have had to declared it prior to shooting the power which means anything thats not a flyer, FMC, or skimmer under that beam isnt going to be hit and those models outlined just previously will be. If you dont have Skyfire your beam will pass harmlessly under the Flier and hit the units bellow it that are eligible to be hit by it.


Also, I just checked that power. Seems pretty crappy due in part to its wording against non-vehicles. :|

Xzerios wrote:
Should the 4D6 line cross under a flier, you would then check to see if your model has the Skyfire rule as your shot is going to be resolved as a snap shot against it. If you have the Skyfire rule, you would have had to declared it prior to shooting the power which means anything thats not a flyer, FMC, or skimmer under that beam isnt going to be hit and those models outlined just previously will be. If you dont have Skyfire your beam will pass harmlessly under the Flier and hit the units bellow it that are eligible to be hit by it.


Also, I just checked that power. Seems pretty crappy due in part to its wording against non-vehicles. :|

The problem with the above is that it in no way follows the rules for shooting as set in the rule book.

Shots resolved at a zooming Flyer follow a specific sequence as set in the BRB, not what you have outlined above.

You follow the shooting sequence as outlined on pg 13, iirc. When you declare the target, in this case a zooming Flyer, at that time the Hard to Hit rule comes into affect forcing you to Snap Shot because you are indeed firing at a zooming Flyer. Blood Lance never declares a target, the line is drawn and anything in the path suffers a str8 hit. You were never firing at the Flyer and thus were never resolving a shot at the Flyer.

Same with Death Ray, Vibro Cannons, and JotWW. You never declare a target, however, some of these do have a target.

Your Psychic Shooting attack though doesnt have the Skyfire rule and is unable to hit the Flier at that point.

The same issue was brought up by the Necrons Doom Scythe and the Death ray. Difference here is that the Scythe has the option to turn on Skyfire where as your model does not. You must still follow the rules outlined by the Fliers entry in the book as in this situation, a Flier is present. Since the rules for fliers state that all shots fired against them count as Snap Shots unless the model firing has Skyfire, you must then proceed to the rules for Snap Shots.

Xzerios wrote:
Your Psychic Shooting attack though doesnt have the Skyfire rule and is unable to hit the Flier at that point.

The same issue was brought up by the Necrons Doom Scythe and the Death ray. Difference here is that the Scythe has the option to turn on Skyfire where as your model does not. You must still follow the rules outlined by the Fliers entry in the book as in this situation, a Flier is present. Since the rules for fliers state that all shots fired against them count as Snap Shots unless the model firing has Skyfire, you must then proceed to the rules for Snap Shots.

Ok, canned response noted.

Now, read the rule for Hard to Hit. It specifices when resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer, you Snap Shot if you do not have Skyfire. The shooting sequence is clear as day in the BRB. At no time do you shoot Blood Lance at anything. If the rule stated when resolving hits AT a zooming Flyer, fine. However, with Blood Lance you at no time are shooting AT a zooming Flyer and never trigger the Snap Shot.

It is right there in the rules for Hard to Hit regarding resolving a shot, AT a zooming Flyer.

You can point the blood lance on a flyer but in order to get a result you must resolve the attack against the flyer. And since you can't fire it as a snapshot, the attack against the flyer can't be resolved.

That's a good thing. Imagine how broken the Necron Doom Scythe would be otherwise. And this is coming from a Necron player.

copper.talos wrote:
You can point the blood lance on a flyer but in order to get a result you must resolve the attack against the flyer. And since you can't fire it as a snapshot, the attack against the flyer can't be resolved.

That's a good thing. Imagine how broken the Necron Doom Scythe would be otherwise. And this is coming from a Necron player.

The hard to hit rule only pertains to shots. It's not a blanket statement made about any attack versus the flyer having to be snap shots only. There are a few things that cause automatic hits in a way that's not a shot.

 Shandara wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
You can point the blood lance on a flyer but in order to get a result you must resolve the attack against the flyer. And since you can't fire it as a snapshot, the attack against the flyer can't be resolved.

That's a good thing. Imagine how broken the Necron Doom Scythe would be otherwise. And this is coming from a Necron player.

The hard to hit rule only pertains to shots. It's not a blanket statement made about any attack versus the flyer having to be snap shots only. There are a few things that cause automatic hits in a way that's not a shot.

Which is EXACTLY my point.

If Hard to Hit was specific in saying, any hits resolved against a zooming Flyer, then there would be a valid argument for Blood Lance not working due to the rules for Snap Shots. Instead it uses the defined rules of shooting at a zooming Flyer, which Blood Lance never does as it will never be shooting AT a zooming Flyer. It may hit a zooming Flyer, but at no time was it ever shot AT a zooming Flyer.

Is the line drawn "on the battlefield"?

Does your shot pass over/under the flier? If it does, then youll be resolving your Psychic Shot at that flier, in addition to anything under that line in just a moment. Thats where Hard to Hit steps in and prevents you from doing so as your shot counts as an auto-hit against the flier. That shot will be resolved as a Snap Shot and auto-hits are not permitted as Snap Shots. In theory, I could then say that your unable to shoot your beam as it passed over/under my flier and save any other models that would have been hit by it on the account that your beam was one shot and had the Snap Shot rule applied to it; Denying you the effects of your power.

Xzerios wrote:
Does your shot pass over/under the flier? If it does, then youll be resolving your Psychic Shot at that flier, in addition to anything under that line in just a moment. Thats where Hard to Hit steps in and prevents you from doing so as your shot counts as an auto-hit against the flier. That shot will be resolved as a Snap Shot and auto-hits are not permitted as Snap Shots. In theory, I could then say that your unable to shoot your beam as it passed over/under my flier and save any other models that would have been hit by it on the account that your beam was one shot and had the Snap Shot rule applied to it; Denying you the effects of your power.

No, if the line passes over/under the zooming Flyer, you are not resolving a psychic shot AT the Flyer, you are resolving a hit OF the Flyer. Those are the rules for Blood Lance. You never shot AT the zooming Flyer, which is what triggers Hard to Hit.

You need to read the Shooting Sequence in the BRB and understand that is what the Hard to Hit rule refers to when it says shooting AT a zooming Flyer. As Blood Lance does not follow those rules, it never shot AT a zooming Flyer and thus never triggers Hard to Hit and the subsequent rules regarding Snap Shots.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Does your shot pass over/under the flier? If it does, then youll be resolving your Psychic Shot at that flier, in addition to anything under that line in just a moment. Thats where Hard to Hit steps in and prevents you from doing so as your shot counts as an auto-hit against the flier. That shot will be resolved as a Snap Shot and auto-hits are not permitted as Snap Shots. In theory, I could then say that your unable to shoot your beam as it passed over/under my flier and save any other models that would have been hit by it on the account that your beam was one shot and had the Snap Shot rule applied to it; Denying you the effects of your power.

No, if the line passes over/under the zooming Flyer, you are not resolving a psychic shot AT the Flyer, you are resolving a hit OF the Flyer. Those are the rules for Blood Lance. You never shot AT the zooming Flyer, which is what triggers Hard to Hit.

You need to read the Shooting Sequence in the BRB and understand that is what the Hard to Hit rule refers to when it says shooting AT a zooming Flyer. As Blood Lance does not follow those rules, it never shot AT a zooming Flyer and thus never triggers Hard to Hit and the subsequent rules regarding Snap Shots.

You seem to know the rule for Blood Lance, does it say to draw a line "on the battlefield"?

It only says 'extend a straight line, 4d6" long... in any direction'.

 Shandara wrote:
It only says 'extend a straight line, 4d6" long... in any direction'.

And I am on the jobsite right now, but I recall it also jumping up and over certain units and terrain.

jumping over units locked in combat and up to units on ruins and the like.

Are you going to resolve that shot against the Flier or not? Mind you, a resolved shot is from the start of its To Hit to the Allocate Wounds and Remove Models; Substituting the Allocate Wounds and Remove Models with Shooting at Vehicles.

Well, I don't specifically have a dog in this debate but I view it no differently then the doom scythe weapon and I also am of the opinion that you can't shoot or hit fliers it unless you have skyfire. Mainly because you are forced to resolve as snap shots and snap shots say you can't fire a weapon that doesn't use a BS as a snap shot. While you may not be firing it as a snap shot, you certainly shouldn't be able to resolve it as one either.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Well, I don't specifically have a dog in this debate but I view it no differently then the doom scythe weapon and I also am of the opinion that you can't shoot or hit fliers it unless you have skyfire. Mainly because you are forced to resolve as snap shots and snap shots say you can't fire a weapon that doesn't use a BS as a snap shot. While you may not be firing it as a snap shot, you certainly shouldn't be able to resolve it as one either.

This is how I read it as well.

If it was not labeled as a PSA, I could see room for debate, as it is (one of) the only 'line attack' not required to be on the board.

So can the death ray shoot a flyer? as it can have skyfire as a flyer?

Death ray specifies that the line is on the battlefield.

That is what the second sentence I wrote was about.

editing to add:
Even so, it would not matter - for the same reason Kevin949 outlined.
Having skyfire is not the requirement, unless I misread, as there is no way to use it with a death ray.

 kirsanth wrote:
Death ray specifies that the line is on the battlefield.

That is what the second sentence I wrote was about.

editing to add:
Even so, it would not matter - for the same reason Kevin949 outlined.
Having skyfire is not the requirement, unless I misread, as there is no way to use it with a death ray.

The sky is still on the battlefield, but jokes aside, is what you are saying a yes or a no?

Well now wait a sec, I'm not saying the death ray can't hit fliers. I'm saying it can't resolve as snap shots against them. If you declare skyfire with it you're avoiding the snap shot rule against flyers, but you will not hit ground targets at that point with it. I know it's easily up for debate (as there have been a few threads on it already) and could very much use an FAQ ruling, but going by the rules that *I* see, that's how *I* play it.

The point I'm making is that the psyker doesn't have skyfire (barring some other situation) and so doesn't have the option to bypass the "resolve as snap shots" restriction, regardless to the auto-hit of the power (which actually further enforces it wouldn't work). If he did have skyfire, he would be in the same boat as the scythe though, hit air but not ground or hit ground but not air.

Both of you are hung up on the automatic hits element of Blood Lance and are missing the main point that you never shoot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance.

You never resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance because you never shoot AT anything with Blood Lance. A 4d6 line is drawn in any direction and anything under the line suffers as str8 8 lance type hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Both of you are hung up on the automatic hits element of Blood Lance and are missing the main point that you never shoot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance.

You never resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance because you never shoot AT anything with Blood Lance. A 4d6 line is drawn in any direction and anything under the line suffers as str8 8 lance type hit.

And nothing says you have to shoot AT anything to require hard to hit or snap shot to come into play.

 Kevin949 wrote:
And nothing says you have to shoot AT anything to require hard to hit or snap shot to come into play.

This, resolving a shot involves a series of stages, targetting, rolling to hit, rolling to penetrate, rolling on the damage table, etc.

All of these parts of resolving a shot can't be done at a zooming flyer if you aren't using Skyfire. (edit: without using the snap shot rules which forbid non-BS skills)

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Both of you are hung up on the automatic hits element of Blood Lance and are missing the main point that you never shoot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance.

You never resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance because you never shoot AT anything with Blood Lance. A 4d6 line is drawn in any direction and anything under the line suffers as str8 8 lance type hit.

And nothing says you have to shoot AT anything to require hard to hit or snap shot to come into play.

The rule for Hard to Hit does exactly that! It tells you when resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer right in the rule. Resolvijng a shot AT something is a defined process which specifically includes choosing a target, which Blood Lance never does. How else would you determine that a zooming flyer is being shot AT if it isn't targetted?

Look at the rule itself; it specifically points out that Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot HIT zooming Flyers. Without that clause, those weapons could hit a zooming Flyerbecause it never shot AT the zooming Flyer but instead could have been shot AT a unit right next to the zooming Flyer and then scattered onto the zooming Flyer thus hitting it without shooting AT it.. Notice that there is no such clause for Blood Lance or anything like Blood Lance?

As it stands, PSA or shooting attacks that do not shoot AT a zooming Flyer but can still hit it by some mechanic of their rules, do not trigger Snap Shots and hit the zooming Flyer.