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Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Look at the rule itself; it specifically points out that Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot HIT zooming Flyers. Without that clause, those weapons could hit a zooming Flyerbecause it never shot AT the zooming Flyer but instead could have been shot AT a unit right next to the zooming Flyer and then scattered onto the zooming Flyer thus hitting it without shooting AT it.. Notice that there is no such clause for Blood Lance or anything like Blood Lance?

You are taking this totally out of context, that statement restricts a Blast weapon from ever hitting a Zooming flyer, it's not just about targetting a different unit and having it scatter. Even if a blast weapon had Skyfire and thus was not firing snap shots it is still totally and utterly unable to ever hit a Zooming Flyer. The reason it doesn't call out things like Blood Lance is because they can hit flyers, IF fired with Skyfire. If they don't have Skyfire though, they are unfortunately resolved as snapshots against the Flyer, and given they don't use Ballistic Skill no shot resolution is allowed to occur.

Well until there is a FAQ about it, the rule would stand that Flyers do not benefit from HtH for these line attacks. It states that any unit along the line suffers a hit. As it is currently worded, you could not DtW it either, since it does not target.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Both of you are hung up on the automatic hits element of Blood Lance and are missing the main point that you never shoot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance.

You never resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance because you never shoot AT anything with Blood Lance. A 4d6 line is drawn in any direction and anything under the line suffers as str8 8 lance type hit.

And nothing says you have to shoot AT anything to require hard to hit or snap shot to come into play.

The rule for Hard to Hit does exactly that! It tells you when resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer right in the rule. Resolvijng a shot AT something is a defined process which specifically includes choosing a target, which Blood Lance never does. How else would you determine that a zooming flyer is being shot AT if it isn't targetted?

Look at the rule itself; it specifically points out that Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot HIT zooming Flyers. Without that clause, those weapons could hit a zooming Flyerbecause it never shot AT the zooming Flyer but instead could have been shot AT a unit right next to the zooming Flyer and then scattered onto the zooming Flyer thus hitting it without shooting AT it.. Notice that there is no such clause for Blood Lance or anything like Blood Lance?

As it stands, PSA or shooting attacks that do not shoot AT a zooming Flyer but can still hit it by some mechanic of their rules, do not trigger Snap Shots and hit the zooming Flyer.

Oh god, here we go again with the "target target target" thing.

Ya, there's a clause for blast and template weapons in there, great. They can't ever be fired as snap shots anyway and are outside this debate.

So, you say that blood lance skips a step in the requirement for resolving attacks but also because it skips that step it doesn't count as resolving an attack against a flyer? How do you not see that's incorrect?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Well until there is a FAQ about it, the rule would stand that Flyers do not benefit from HtH for these line attacks. It states that any unit along the line suffers a hit. As it is currently worded, you could not DtW it either, since it does not target.

So...you're the authority on it pre-FAQ?

And this is where you show your misunderstanding or just plain ignorance of the rules Kevin949;

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

That is the RAW argument that you cannot break.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
And this is where you show your misunderstanding or just plain ignorance of the rules Kevin949;

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

That is the RAW argument that you cannot break.

Quite correct.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer...

Everything you have said up to here is entirely reasonable

...because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

This is a baseless opinion, you have no idea why they wrote that rule, as I have already demonstrated it serves more purposes than just the one you claim because it also prevents things with skyfire from firing their blast weapons at flyers, despite them targetting the flyer itself.

It is not support for any RAW discussion and is barely even good support for a RAI discussion.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer.

But cannot damage the flyer at all without resolving the remainder of the shot at the Flyer, such as rolling to penetrate and rolling on the damage table etc.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer...

Everything you have said up to here is entirely reasonable

...because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

This is a baseless opinion, you have no idea why they wrote that rule, as I have already demonstrated it serves more purposes than just the one you claim because it also prevents things with skyfire from firing their blast weapons at flyers, despite them targetting the flyer itself.

It is not support for any RAW discussion and is barely even good support for a RAI discussion.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer.

But cannot damage the flyer at all without resolving the remainder of the shot at the Flyer, such as rolling to penetrate and rolling on the damage table etc.

Care to show me a template, blast, or large blast weapon with Skyfire? The WHOLE point of Skyfire is to allow weapons to fire with using a normal BS instead of Snap Shot against FLYERS.

However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

You want to try and accuse me of a baseless opinion by proposing a scnerio that not only DOESN'T EXIST, but also flies in the face of the rules intention whereas my opinion can and does regularly happen in game all the time. Honestly, you cannot possibly look anymore stupid with that argument.

And your are not resolving a shot at a flyer or what you calling, "the remainder of a shot" against a flyer. A hit does not make a shot, however a shot does make a hit. As I have pointed out with both the scenarios for blast and template weapons, as well as the rules for Blood Lance, units/models can indeed be hit, without having never been shot AT!

Just to add to your COMPLETELY baseless scenario of blast weapons with Skyfire; even if it did exist, MY OPINION WOULD STILL APPLY.

/facepalm

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Care to show me a template, blast, or large blast weapon with Skyfire? The WHOLE point of Skyfire is to allow weapons to fire with using a normal BS instead of Snap Shot against FLYERS.

Missiles on both Dark Eldar Flyers, Plasma Cannons on Storm Ravens, I think the Valkyrie/Vendetta both have blast missile systems too, oh and of course the Storm Talon. That enough Blast Skyfire for you?

However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

Well you can without targetting it yes, you still have to resolve shots at it when you roll to wound etc.

You want to try and accuse me of a baseless opinion by proposing a scnerio that not only DOESN'T EXIST, but also flies in the face of the rules intention whereas my opinion can and does regularly happen in game all the time. Honestly, you cannot possibly look anymore stupid with that argument.

Hahah, pot meet kettle, maybe check your facts before tossing around names and accusations.

And your are not resolving a shot at a flyer or what you calling, "the remainder of a shot" against a flyer. A hit does not make a shot, however a shot does make a hit. As I have pointed out with both the scenarios for blast and template weapons, as well as the rules for Blood Lance, units/models can indeed be hit, without having never been shot AT!

A shot's resolution is more than just selecting a target, it's a series of steps. You cannot perform the later steps against a Zooming Flyer without Snap Firing.

Just to add to your COMPLETELY baseless scenario of blast weapons with Skyfire; even if it did exist, MY OPINION WOULD STILL APPLY.

you mean your opinion of the RAI? Yeah I can't refute your Opinion about RAI, of course, despite your opinion MY FACTS STILL APPLY REGARDING RAW.

It says under the flyer rules nothing about hitting against a flyer or even targetting a flyer. It says RESOLVED against a flier are snap shots. Sure it hits, in the process of resolving the shot against the flyer you now have to check the skyfire rules and the skyfire rules say auto hits can not affect the unit with snap fire.

What I don't understand is Blood lance doesn't roll to hit. So how can you all cry that you need to use snapfire when bloodlance does not roll to hit. It is not a regular shooting attack. It is a psychic power that causes 1 hit against everything in its path. It IS that simple, untill FAQd you cannot choose to apply a rule that does not apply to the particular attack in question as there is no place to apply it to. Stating that in this case you can't target a flyer with Blood lance at all is baseless as the weapons rules as currently written state that it causes 1 hit at str 8 to every target on the line with the only exception being units locked into hand to hand combat. Unless they add cannot target zooming flyers or something of the sort Blood Lance will still be able to hit flyers. Think of it as an intelligent warp missile. All that bein said you should still get a deny the witch roll against it, couldn't you also evade for a saving throw?

 Kevin949 wrote:
So...you're the authority on it pre-FAQ?

No. But if you read the rule it is quite simple. Your trying to interpret the snap shot / HtH section to justify why it shouldn't work, not why it doesn't work.

"Any enemy unit in the path suffers a S8 AP1 hit." There is no wiggle room in that sentence. No "resolve hits" or "needs Skyfire", no "under / over the line"(which technically doesn't exist)

The flyer takes a hit as well as everything not exempted by the Blood Lance rule.

A flyer is in the air so it isn't crossed by the path of the attack.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A flyer is in the air so it isn't crossed by the path of the attack.

Fluff != rules.

I'm not weighing in on either side of the argument, just observing that trying to use fluff in a rules debate is silly.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
What I don't understand is Blood lance doesn't roll to hit. So how can you all cry that you need to use snapfire when bloodlance does not roll to hit. It is not a regular shooting attack. It is a psychic power that causes 1 hit against everything in its path. It IS that simple, untill FAQd you cannot choose to apply a rule that does not apply to the particular attack in question as there is no place to apply it to. Stating that in this case you can't target a flyer with Blood lance at all is baseless as the weapons rules as currently written state that it causes 1 hit at str 8 to every target on the line with the only exception being units locked into hand to hand combat. Unless they add cannot target zooming flyers or something of the sort Blood Lance will still be able to hit flyers. Think of it as an intelligent warp missile. All that bein said you should still get a deny the witch roll against it, couldn't you also evade for a saving throw?

Snap Shots can't be used with any shooting attack that doesn't roll to hit using BS (in this case Blood Lance is one such attack) and shots can't effect Zooming Flyers unless they are resolved as Snap Shots, so Blood Lance can't affect Zooming Flyers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A flyer is in the air so it isn't crossed by the path of the attack.

Fluff != rules.

I'm not weighing in on either side of the argument, just observing that trying to use fluff in a rules debate is silly.

He is correct in that, the line drawn from the lance has to pass through units to affect them, meaning in the case of a flyer it must be drawn up into the sky (not that I believe it would effect them anyway, but a similar situation happens with Eldar Vibro Cannons which can effect Flyers since they roll to hit).

It's not like the Doom Scythe's Death Ray which affects everything under it.

Of course, it appears Dozer seems to think that the line has to be drawn along the table, which I do not agree with.

That may well be RAI Dozer, but as its currently written the Flyer is still "in the path of the line". Death Ray states anything the line touches, which using pg 80 of the Flyer rules you can make an argument why it shouldnt hit the Flyer, since the base is effectively ignored. But Blood Lance is written far more generically. The Flyer is in the path (direction) of the line and therefore gets hit. Snapshots and HtH have nothing to do with it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A flyer is in the air so it isn't crossed by the path of the attack.

Fluff != rules.

I'm not weighing in on either side of the argument, just observing that trying to use fluff in a rules debate is silly.

It actually "is" a rule, flyers are above the battlefield, not on it.

It only hits units on the ground.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

I would just like to point out that you ARE shooting "at" the second unit with that template/blast weapon, but they are not the target. There *is* a difference.

And yes, you're right, you're not firing a blood as a snap shot, but hard to hit does not require you to FIRE as a snap shot, it requires you to RESOLVE as a snap shot. And if you can not resolve all parts of the hit as a snap shot, you can not hit what you shot at.

Support that with rules Dozer.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It only hits units on the ground.

Unfortunately, if the rules quote earlier was indeed correct (though it was snipped), it just says "in any direction" and not "on the battlefield". But those rules were written for a 2d space so it's just assumed it's "on the ground". Also, if it was "on the ground" then nothing would ever be under the line, but that is obviously not true.

That said, it still can't hit a flier without skyfire.

Okay I see it does say path not units on the ground. I agree with DS though in regards to it not working due to snapfire - skyfire otherwise rune priests could JotWW assaulting enemy units.

"Extend a straight line, 4d6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction -- this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the path suffers a single S8, AP 1 hit with the Lance type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected-- the lance darts over them before continuing on its course."


Automatic hits skip the entire "to hit" process and hence, Skyfire or HtH would have no effect on Blood Lance. It goes straight to wounding or penetrating.

It does, since the shot cannot be resolved.

The hits could happen, but the shot cannot be resolved.

The shot was not targeted at a flyer, but that isn't what the restriction states - it states that shots can only be resolved as snap shots; blood lance cannot be resolved as a snap shot.

As a PSA, it is a shot being resolved against a flyer regardless of its target.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Care to show me a template, blast, or large blast weapon with Skyfire? The WHOLE point of Skyfire is to allow weapons to fire with using a normal BS instead of Snap Shot against FLYERS.

Missiles on both Dark Eldar Flyers, Plasma Cannons on Storm Ravens, I think the Valkyrie/Vendetta both have blast missile systems too, oh and of course the Storm Talon. That enough Blast Skyfire for you?

However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

Well you can without targetting it yes, you still have to resolve shots at it when you roll to wound etc.

You want to try and accuse me of a baseless opinion by proposing a scnerio that not only DOESN'T EXIST, but also flies in the face of the rules intention whereas my opinion can and does regularly happen in game all the time. Honestly, you cannot possibly look anymore stupid with that argument.

Hahah, pot meet kettle, maybe check your facts before tossing around names and accusations.

And your are not resolving a shot at a flyer or what you calling, "the remainder of a shot" against a flyer. A hit does not make a shot, however a shot does make a hit. As I have pointed out with both the scenarios for blast and template weapons, as well as the rules for Blood Lance, units/models can indeed be hit, without having never been shot AT!

A shot's resolution is more than just selecting a target, it's a series of steps. You cannot perform the later steps against a Zooming Flyer without Snap Firing.

Just to add to your COMPLETELY baseless scenario of blast weapons with Skyfire; even if it did exist, MY OPINION WOULD STILL APPLY.

you mean your opinion of the RAI? Yeah I can't refute your Opinion about RAI, of course, despite your opinion MY FACTS STILL APPLY REGARDING RAW.

Good, you found some blast weapons with Skyfire. Now how exactly does that invalidate my baseless opinion when it STILL applies to blast weapons and templates that accidentally scatter or are intentional placed to HIT a zooming Flyer? The rule still prevents them from hitting the zooming Flyer despite them not having SHOT at the zooming Flyer.

And resolvong a shot is a defined process per the BRB. Resolving one element of said process does not suddenly make it that you have done the entire process. I have already shown you two specific circumstances where you can hit something that you never shot at.

You keep ignoring the RAW of Hard to Hit and gloss over it to rush into the rules for Snap Shot to quickly shout out that shooting attacks that do not use BS or hit automatically cannot be snap shot. However the verbatim of Hard to Hit is specific in that the trigger to Snap Shot is in resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer. Resolving a shot AT anything is a defined process, the key one in this debate of declaring a target of the shot, which Blood Lance does not do.

If Blood Lance was worded like the JotWW FAQ, then you would be correct because then it would be resolving a shot AT a defined target. However, Blood Lance declares no target, it merely hit whatever it passes over in its 4d6 direction, which would include zooming Flyers because you never shot AT the zooming Flyer thus triggering the rules for Snap Fire.

Simple set of questions,

1. Did Blood Lance shoot AT the zooming Flyer? If it didn't shoot AT a zooming Flyer, how are your resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer?

2. Did Blood Lance HIT a zooming Flyer? If it HIT a zooming Flyer, are you resolving a shot AT the zooming Flyer or are you resolving a HIT of the zooming Flyer?

If it hits automatically resolution has already occurred yes?

Furthermore the Codex trumps the rulebook in the first place. Would not the specific rules for the psychic power trump anything in the BRB period that came into conflict with it?

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

I would just like to point out that you ARE shooting "at" the second unit with that template/blast weapon, but they are not the target. There *is* a difference.

And yes, you're right, you're not firing a blood as a snap shot, but hard to hit does not require you to FIRE as a snap shot, it requires you to RESOLVE as a snap shot. And if you can not resolve all parts of the hit as a snap shot, you can not hit what you shot at.

Wrong.

In Warhammer 40k, shooting is a defined process in which a target is selected and fired upon. That target is considered to have been shot at per the defined shooting process of the rules. You may HIT other targets in some circumstances as I outlined with regard to scattering blast and template overlap, but per the defined shooting process of Warhammer 40k, you did not shoot AT those targets.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Furthermore the Codex trumps the rulebook in the first place. Would not the specific rules for the psychic power trump anything in the BRB period that came into conflict with it?

Entirely incorrect.

Specific trumps general. If nothing is contradicted, nothing is trumped.

Nothing in Blood lance contradicts the main rules. - in this case.

Blood lance cannot be resolved via snap shot.

 kirsanth wrote:
It does, since the shot cannot be resolved.

The hits could happen, but the shot cannot be resolved.

The shot was not targeted at a flyer, but that isn't what the restriction states - it states that shots can only be resolved as snap shots; blood lance cannot be resolved as a snap shot.

As a PSA, it is a shot being resolved against a flyer regardless of its target.

No, because shooting is a defined process in Warhammer 40k. And the restriction is prefaced specifically by the defined process of shooting AT a zooming flyer. Seriously, you people just gloss over that specific wording to jump at the chance to quote the Snap Shot rules.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

I would just like to point out that you ARE shooting "at" the second unit with that template/blast weapon, but they are not the target. There *is* a difference.

And yes, you're right, you're not firing a blood as a snap shot, but hard to hit does not require you to FIRE as a snap shot, it requires you to RESOLVE as a snap shot. And if you can not resolve all parts of the hit as a snap shot, you can not hit what you shot at.

Wrong.

In Warhammer 40k, shooting is a defined process in which a target is selected and fired upon. That target is considered to have been shot at per the defined shooting process of the rules. You may HIT other targets in some circumstances as I outlined with regard to scattering blast and template overlap, but per the defined shooting process of Warhammer 40k, you did not shoot AT those targets.

Well in that case I claim that your blood lance is shooting "at" every unit it hits. *Shrug*

Let me ask you, if you use blood lance and you hit an IC first and 3" behind him is a squad of whatever, you kill the IC...can you assault the squad?

Hard to Hit only does anything against shots at the zooming flier (since we're not concerned with templates and blasts in this argument).

Blood Lance and Vibro Cannons are only arguably shots of any kind; they are definitely not shots at the flier. (Specifically, vibro cannons are allowed to hit absolutely anything, even intentionally hitting your own guys).