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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:48:38
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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Huge Bone Giant
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No it isn't.
Read the Shooting Phase rules.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:50:16
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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So your assertion here is that the autohit cannot be resolved so it does not infact hit and that you see no conflict in this?
Is that correct?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:53:48
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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The Hive Mind
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Lt.Soundwave wrote:resolving the shot without breaking rules.
Which would be a conflict! Hence you refer to what rule in the BRB when such a conflict arrives?
No, a conflict would be "All PSAs require a roll to hit." vs the Codex FAQ that says Blood Lance does not require a roll to hit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:54:52
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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kirsanth wrote:"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots" is not "Shots targeted at a zooming flyer. . . ."
The PSA is trying to resolve a shot at a zooming flyer without using Snap Shots.
We all agree it is not targeting, nor is it worrying about hitting, and those are parts of resolving a shot?
Shot resolution is a defined process that includes targetting a model. You cannot sit here and throw the defined shooting process under the bus when convenient.
Parts of the defined shooting process, but not the shooting process, namely declaring the Flyer as the target of the shot. If you never declared the zooming Flyer as the target of the PSA, per the shooting process of Warhammer 40k, you are NOT shooting AT the zooming Flyer. The PSA may hit the zooming Flyer, but that does not inherently mean that you shot AT the zooming Flyer.
I showed how the Hard to Hit rule clearly specifies instances where it does not allow zooming Flyers to accidentally or intentionally be hit by blast or template weapons without being shot AT and Blood Lance does not fall under any of those inclusions.
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If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:55:15
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target. Zero mention of resolving shooting AT a target as well.
The attack simply draws a line and strikes those that fall under it. Automatically. Nothing in that is vague.
Anything that would disallow this is by definition coming into conflict with the stated mechanics of the attack itself. There is no way around this.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:56:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:59:27
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Huge Bone Giant
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The shooting phase does not end with hitting, neither does resolving shots.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:01:44
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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The Hive Mind
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Lt.Soundwave wrote:The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.
FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.
Zero mention of resolving shooting AT a target as well.
Great! So we don't resolve the shooting attack then. Codex trumps BRB after all, and no permission to resolve the shooting attack means it doesn't get done. Glad we cleared that up.
See the problem with "CODEX ALWAYS WINS BLARG"?
You must fall back to the BRB in some situations.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:02:43
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Ah selective reading
The attack simply draws a line and strikes those that fall under it. Automatically. Nothing in that is vague.
Anything that would disallow this is by definition coming into conflict with the stated mechanics of the attack itself. There is no way around this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:03:26
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Huge Bone Giant
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Page 15, main rules:
"When the Wound pool is empty, the shooting attack has been completely resolved."
Until you get to that stage, you are still resolving it.
Illegally, in this case.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:10:06
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote: Lt.Soundwave wrote:The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.
FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.
Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:11:10
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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kirsanth wrote:The shooting phase does not end with hitting, neither does resolving shots.
No it doesn't, however when you are not resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer in the first place that does not matter.
Kirsanth, look to the recent Deny the Witch versus JotWW debate.
In that debate it was asked whether or not units hit AFTER the initial unit were allowed Deny the Witch rolls. It was determined that due to the FAQ telling you that the first unit affected by the power is the target unit, only that first unit is allowed a Deny the Witch roll.
In this instance, you do not have a target unit. The rules for Blood Lance never have you declaring a target nor treating a unit as a target. Resolving a hit from Blood Lance is resolving part of the defined shot process of a PSA. However, it is not resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer which the rules for Hard to Hit specifically outline as the trigger to enact the Snap Shot rules.
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If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:13:55
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Huge Bone Giant
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Resolving a shot at a flyer still does not require targeting a flyer, or even shooting at one. No matter how many times people assert it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/28 18:28:16
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:14:41
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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Double post. Oops.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 18:15:40
If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:24:09
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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The Hive Mind
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DarknessEternal wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Lt.Soundwave wrote:The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.
FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.
Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.
I'm sure you read the word "indirectly".
BRB page 20 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.
With that quote plus the statement in the BA FAQ saying that the unit can only assault the first unit hit, that means that's the target unit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:26:05
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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DarknessEternal wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Lt.Soundwave wrote:The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.
FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.
Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.
It states only the first unit hit can be assaulted and you can only assault a unit that you targeted in the shooting phase if you shoot...so, there's that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 19:00:44
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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rigeld2 wrote: DarknessEternal wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Lt.Soundwave wrote:The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.
FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.
Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.
I'm sure you read the word "indirectly".
BRB page 20 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.
With that quote plus the statement in the BA FAQ saying that the unit can only assault the first unit hit, that means that's the target unit.
Nice attempt at a leap of logic, but it is flawed.
As Blood Lance has the ability to hit multiple units without targetting any of them a FAQ was needed to determine which of multiple units hit were eligible to be assaulted. Nothing more, nothing less. To insinuate that Blood Lance targets somethings by being able to assault it after hitting it it with Blood Lance is all types of wishful thinking.
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If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 19:13:44
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Tyr Grimtooth wrote:rigeld2 wrote: DarknessEternal wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Lt.Soundwave wrote:The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.
FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.
Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.
I'm sure you read the word "indirectly".
BRB page 20 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.
With that quote plus the statement in the BA FAQ saying that the unit can only assault the first unit hit, that means that's the target unit.
Nice attempt at a leap of logic, but it is flawed.
As Blood Lance has the ability to hit multiple units without targetting any of them a FAQ was needed to determine which of multiple units hit were eligible to be assaulted. Nothing more, nothing less. To insinuate that Blood Lance targets somethings by being able to assault it after hitting it it with Blood Lance is all types of wishful thinking.
You need to remember the FAQ is a rules clarification, not a change to the rule. It's not flawed logic if it's the way it works.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 19:35:39
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Apples are not oranges my friend.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 19:46:30
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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Kevin949 wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:rigeld2 wrote: DarknessEternal wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Lt.Soundwave wrote:The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.
FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.
Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.
I'm sure you read the word "indirectly".
BRB page 20 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.
With that quote plus the statement in the BA FAQ saying that the unit can only assault the first unit hit, that means that's the target unit.
Nice attempt at a leap of logic, but it is flawed.
As Blood Lance has the ability to hit multiple units without targetting any of them a FAQ was needed to determine which of multiple units hit were eligible to be assaulted. Nothing more, nothing less. To insinuate that Blood Lance targets somethings by being able to assault it after hitting it it with Blood Lance is all types of wishful thinking.
You need to remember the FAQ is a rules clarification, not a change to the rule. It's not flawed logic if it's the way it works.
Your right, it is a rules clarification on how you determine which of multiple units hit by Blood Lance you are then allowed to assault. The answer being the first unit hit by Blood Lance.
Nothing about that unit being the target unit.
Nothing about Blood Lance having a target.
Like I said, a faulty leap of logic.
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If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 20:09:58
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Dakka Veteran
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This sentence says it pretty clearly. "shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots."
Page 81, under hard to hit.
Now one persons argument here is that they didnt target the flyer. Fine if you didnt target it then wht are you arguing its hit you didnt aim it at the flyer. No where under hard to hit does it mention TARGETING anywhere in the hard to hit paragraph. Since the blood lance hit everything in its path with the exceptions it has written you must resolve them hits as well though you didnt target them.
Auto hits do not hit a zooming flyer.
However if you wanted to roll a perils test and them roll to hit and hit with a 6 Id let you hit my flyer. You know perfectly well that rule was written before snap fire, hard to hit and zooming flyers, so since it is not addressed in the blood angels codex nor the FAQ you have to use the only rules written for them 3 rules and thats the BRB.
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In a dog eat dog be a cat. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 20:15:01
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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Fixture of Dakka
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Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.
Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 20:39:52
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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kirsanth wrote:Fragile wrote:Its only ridiculous if your arguing that their is a shooting involved. There is no shooting.
A Psychic Shooting Attack is indeed Psychicly Shooting Attacks at things.
Indeed, then what BS does it use to hit all those nonflyers ??
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 20:45:18
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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Huge Bone Giant
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DarknessEternal wrote:Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.
Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.
This is why I have avoided equating the two. Much like JotWW and other things, they have their own, different, rules.
Fragile wrote: kirsanth wrote:Fragile wrote:Its only ridiculous if your arguing that their is a shooting involved. There is no shooting.
A Psychic Shooting Attack is indeed Psychicly Shooting Attacks at things.
Indeed, then what BS does it use to hit all those nonflyers ??
Happy you see the issue.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 20:46:45
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
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Lungpickle wrote:This sentence says it pretty clearly. "shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots."
Page 81, under hard to hit.
Now one persons argument here is that they didnt target the flyer. Fine if you didnt target it then wht are you arguing its hit you didnt aim it at the flyer. No where under hard to hit does it mention TARGETING anywhere in the hard to hit paragraph. Since the blood lance hit everything in its path with the exceptions it has written you must resolve them hits as well though you didnt target them.
Auto hits do not hit a zooming flyer.
However if you wanted to roll a perils test and them roll to hit and hit with a 6 Id let you hit my flyer. You know perfectly well that rule was written before snap fire, hard to hit and zooming flyers, so since it is not addressed in the blood angels codex nor the FAQ you have to use the only rules written for them 3 rules and thats the BRB.
I am not saying you are wrong. I am going to say that because of poor grammar, I can not understand what you were trying to say.
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On Dakka he was Eldanar. In our area, he was Lee. R.I.P., Lee Guthrie. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 21:10:14
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Indiana
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Let me see if I can try to explain how I see the order of operations. Let me know where I am making a mistake
1.Cast blood lance successfully
2.Nominate a direction and roll
3.All models under the line are eligible to be hit by the power
4.They are now considered to be automatically hit
5.They are then wounded/armor pened as normal
Actually now that I look more closely RAW is that the snap shot rule prevents something from firing not from resolving damage. "May not be fired as snap shots" However in this situation it has already been fired. However in this situation, since it has already been fired, even though snap shots kick in there is no effect as it kicks in after the thing it would prevent has already occurred. It can't retroactively prevent the individual from firing as that is what snap shots does, not prevent them from resolving damage.
However having said that I would argue that if you wanted the blood lance to hit the flier it would have to be aimed skyward and would not hit anything along the ground. In the power it says nominate a direction and measure from the base. It says nothing about along the table or even a point(like the death ray/Jaws). If you fire it along the ground the flyer is never in its path. I suppose the same thing could be argued for skimmers, however they are usually not high enough off the ground that troops on the ground would not get hit.
Although it is difficult concept to understand this is definately a 3D game(especially with the introduction of things like true line of sight) and if we can look at it as a 3D issue than I think it can work.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 21:10:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 21:12:07
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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Irked Necron Immortal
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If I may folks. Some things need to be cleared up with the Power itself first off.
Pg 63 Blood Angels Codex wrote:
The Blood Lance
The Librarian conjures a mighty lance, glistening with gore. On a single word of command, the lance flies from his hands, skewering everything in its own path.
This power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.
Ok, theres the elephant in the room. Theres one FaQ question that is prevalent to this situation though:
Pg 4 Blood Angels Codex FaQ wrote:
Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No.
Ok, lookin good so far. For those that are Anti-side, leme give ya one here:
Pg 13 BRB Roll to Hit, third paragraph wrote:
Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses (or, at the very least will need re-rolling - see below). If several weapons have different Strengths, special rules or AP values, use different coloured dice or roll them separately.
Alright, theres a pretty obvious conflict ion of rules as the BRB says nothing auto-hits and this Psyker power doesnt have to roll to hit at all. Not bad so far. That will prevent the Flier from taking Evade, so thats pretty cool. Lets move on now in this situation.
That Blood Angel Priest is about to throw this lance here and hes set up the line to go over two Necron Immortal units fully staffed and one Night Scythe. Now the Priest expends his charge and passes his test to use the power. Beam goes its full 24" range and hits all three units. Outstanding! Lets resolve those shots.
Theres nothing that the Immortals have that will save them from taking the STR8 AP1 shot. One model will most likely be going down as its going to wound it on a 2+. Lets move on to the flier. It does have something that we need to cover here before we can finish resolving this Psychic Shooting Attack on it.
Pg 81 BRB wrote:
Hard To Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.
Right. This here is where the Blood Lance argument will fall apart. Even though the power doesnt need to roll to hit as its FaQ has outlined, the power still has to be resolved against -every model hit by it-. As Hard To Hit has pointed out, this power must be resolved as a Snap Shot now. The reason the power itself is now resolved as a Snap Shot is that the power outlines that it is a 'lance' type and only one shot is made. Since the Flier was hit and its Hard To Hit rule has made the entire beam count as a Snap Shot, we must look to the rules for Snap Shots.
Pg 13 BRB, Snap Shots bolded text to end of paragraph wrote:
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purposes of those shots. Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance , or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.
Theres where we break the rule is right there. You have already fired your beam but the moment it crossed the flyer model, you become unable to fire it. Again, nothing in The Blood Lance's rule or FaQ has prevented you from not resolving the shot as a Psychic Shooting Power. As the BRB now takes trump in the specifications of Hard to Hit vs the BRBs own Resolving Damage on page 74 as the Flyer is still a vehicle.
So to TLDR everything up to this point:
The Blood Lance does not have to roll to hit, this prevents Evade from triggering due its wording for the Flyer
The Blood Lance still is a Psychic Shooting Attack and must be resolved as one, thats where the Flyer's Hard to Hit trumps the actual resolving of the shot by making the entire shot a Snap Shot.
The Blood Lance is prevented from being fired at all (in its entirety) due to Snap Shots preventing the power from happening.
Well... seems like a big can of worms here. How will folks play it cause with the rules mapped out in this fashion, it would be a @#$%# to go back and redo the beam so the Blood Angel player can still use his power. How would you guys/gals play it?
Personally, Id let the power go, it hit everything else, but the flyer; Just for a quick game.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 21:19:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 23:30:51
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Xzerios wrote:Pg 13 BRB Roll to Hit, third paragraph wrote:
Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses (or, at the very least will need re-rolling - see below). If several weapons have different Strengths, special rules or AP values, use different coloured dice or roll them separately.
Alright, theres a pretty obvious conflict ion of rules as the BRB says nothing auto-hits and this Psyker power doesnt have to roll to hit at all. Not bad so far. That will prevent the Flier from taking Evade, so thats pretty cool. Lets move on now in this situation.
Sorry, bit of a flaw to point out...
There is no conflict, the BRB does NOT say nothing auto-hits. It says (underlined the missing part) "When rolling To Hit" there are no auto-hits. An Auto-hit does not roll to hit.
If something triggered off a roll To Hit, it would not trigger with an auto-hit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 23:31:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 01:38:17
Subject: Re:Blood Lance and flyers
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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DarknessEternal wrote:Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.
Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.
But they do have to be Snap Fired to be able to resolve their effects against Flyers, which means rolling against BS1, rather than BS3, when firing the Vibro Cannon.
Leth wrote:Actually now that I look more closely RAW is that the snap shot rule prevents something from firing not from resolving damage. "May not be fired as snap shots" However in this situation it has already been fired. However in this situation, since it has already been fired, even though snap shots kick in there is no effect as it kicks in after the thing it would prevent has already occurred. It can't retroactively prevent the individual from firing as that is what snap shots does, not prevent them from resolving damage.
You are focusing on the wrong rule, it's already been fired, correct, and we know it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, because it can't be fired as a snap shot, which means, when you look at the Hard to Hit rule for Zooming Flyers, it can't be resolved against them because it wasn't a snap shot. Automatically Appended Next Post: Xzerios wrote:
Right. This here is where the Blood Lance argument will fall apart. Even though the power doesnt need to roll to hit as its FaQ has outlined, the power still has to be resolved against -every model hit by it-. As Hard To Hit has pointed out, this power must be resolved as a Snap Shot now. The reason the power itself is now resolved as a Snap Shot is that the power outlines that it is a 'lance' type and only one shot is made. Since the Flier was hit and its Hard To Hit rule has made the entire beam count as a Snap Shot, we must look to the rules for Snap Shots.
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So to TLDR everything up to this point:
The Blood Lance does not have to roll to hit, this prevents Evade from triggering due its wording for the Flyer
The Blood Lance still is a Psychic Shooting Attack and must be resolved as one, thats where the Flyer's Hard to Hit trumps the actual resolving of the shot by making the entire shot a Snap Shot.
The Blood Lance is prevented from being fired at all (in its entirety) due to Snap Shots preventing the power from happening.
The Blood Lance is not forcibly turned into a Snap Shot simply by virtue of passing through a Flyer, it is simply forbidden from resolving against the Flyer because it wasn't a Snap Shot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/29 01:43:13
Interceptor Drones can disembark at any point during the Sun Shark's move (even though models cannot normally disembark from Zooming Flyers).
-Jeremy Vetock, only man at Games Workshop who understands Zooming Flyers |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 02:36:14
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Kevin949 wrote:You need to remember the FAQ is a rules clarification, not a change to the rule. It's not flawed logic if it's the way it works. FAQs change rules all the time. See Shadow in the Warp over the last few 5th ed FAQd and Spre Cloud in the last 5th ed FAQ. Since you probably won't be able to find them (unless you keep all of them): Does Shadow in the Warp affect psykers who are taking a Psychic test whilst embarked within a transport vehicle? Originally No, changed to Yes (specifically it was changed to Yes in the very last 5th ed FAQ for Nids). Do enemy models assaulting a Venomthrope brood, or another frindly Tyranid unit within range of its Spre Cloud, have their Initiative reduced to 1 for assaulting through the cloud? (p45) A: No, as the Spore Cloud is not a piece of terrain. (Direct opposition to the Rule Book, where it wasn't moving through terrain that caused the drop, it was taking a difficult/dangerous terrain test.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/29 02:49:37
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/29 03:08:29
Subject: Blood Lance and flyers
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Dakka Veteran
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So do we get to deny the witch on it? LOL
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In a dog eat dog be a cat. |
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