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 Drunkspleen wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.

Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.

But they do have to be Snap Fired to be able to resolve their effects against Flyers, which means rolling against BS1, rather than BS3, when firing the Vibro Cannon.

Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

Can I seriously ask why anyone ever mentions the Vibrocannon that actually states it rolls to hit - using BS no less - simply without a target which is irrelevant to every rule mentioned?

It is so entirely out of the conversation that it makes you look like a goon. Is my codex old, making me just wrong?

Unless I am missing something entirely, this is utterly asinine.

What are you babbling about?

Vibro cannons roll to hit using their BS. Then you draw a line from one of them. Then everything the line goes through takes damage, including your own units, units locked in close combat, and fliers.

And "without a target" is not irrelevant. It's the entirety of this rules debate. You can't Snap Shot at something you aren't shooting at.

You can't shoot at your own units or units locked in close combat at all, yet the Vibro cannon still hits them. It hits fliers just the same.

Drunkspleen wrote:The Blood Lance is not forcibly turned into a Snap Shot simply by virtue of passing through a Flyer, it is simply forbidden from resolving against the Flyer because it wasn't a Snap Shot.

Incorrect, the 'lance' is a single shot and the moment that shot passes under/over the Flyer model, you must now resolve the (single) shot as a Snap Shot as the rule for Snap Shot calls out for.

To answer another question, no, you will not get Deny the Witch as the Psychic test was taken, but there was no defined target of the power; those are the prerequisites for the rule. No defined target, no Deny the Witch. Eldar Warlocks also get around this but they dont take Psychic Tests per their FaQ.

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.

Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.

But they do have to be Snap Fired to be able to resolve their effects against Flyers, which means rolling against BS1, rather than BS3, when firing the Vibro Cannon.

Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

It doesn't matter that they have already rolled to hit, because Hard to Hit tells you the shot can only be resolved as a snap shot, because you have opted not to make a snap shot with your Vibro Cannons you are forfeiting the ability to resolve any sort of shot against a Zooming Flyer should the line pass through them.

Xzerios wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:The Blood Lance is not forcibly turned into a Snap Shot simply by virtue of passing through a Flyer, it is simply forbidden from resolving against the Flyer because it wasn't a Snap Shot.

Incorrect, the 'lance' is a single shot and the moment that shot passes under/over the Flyer model, you must now resolve the (single) shot as a Snap Shot as the rule for Snap Shot calls out for.

See above, you don't have to, you are told shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots, if you simply don't resolve the shot against the zooming flyer, you are equally following that rule as if you resolve the entire shot as a snap shot. There is no obligation for the Blood Lance to "turn into" a snap shot just because it hit a Flyer, especially since it can't be fired as a snap shot, it simply is unable to resolve damage against the flyer for fear of breaking that clause.

... Youll be resolving that shot against the Flyer as the line passed over/under the model. The BRB does not give you permission to not resolve any shots on a whim. Resolve your shot sir.

Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You need to remember the FAQ is a rules clarification, not a change to the rule. It's not flawed logic if it's the way it works.

FAQs change rules all the time. See Shadow in the Warp over the last few 5th ed FAQd and Spre Cloud in the last 5th ed FAQ. Since you probably won't be able to find them (unless you keep all of them):

Does Shadow in the Warp affect psykers who are taking a Psychic test whilst embarked within a transport vehicle? Originally No, changed to Yes (specifically it was changed to Yes in the very last 5th ed FAQ for Nids).


Do enemy models assaulting a Venomthrope brood, or another frindly Tyranid unit within range of its Spre Cloud, have their Initiative reduced to 1 for assaulting through the cloud? (p45)
A: No, as the Spore Cloud is not a piece of terrain. (Direct opposition to the Rule Book, where it wasn't moving through terrain that caused the drop, it was taking a difficult/dangerous terrain test.

Remember, they bundle their FAQ and Errata into the same document. But no, a Q/A format document is not changing rules it is clarifying them. Doesn't matter if they change their answer (look at whip coils as well). An actual rules change is when they say to change combat shield from 5+ to 6+ or they remove barrage from a weapon, things like that.

Page 81, Hard to Hit:

Shots resolved at a zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

Hmm, so what is the Warhammer 40k defined process for resolving a shot a something?

Page 12, The Shooting Sequence (emboldened text by me)

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at one enemy unit that it can see. Every model that wishes to shoot must be able to see the target unit, and be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
3. Roll to hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model's Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
4. Roll to wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any wounds caused by the firing unit...<snip>

Just to add some additional clarification, page 12, Choose a Target

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at.

Interesting. So when you resolve a shot AT something, the second step in the Warhammer 40k defined process is choose a target to shoot AT. Of course resolving a shot at a zooming Fler is different in some aspects being a vehicle, but it still includes includes choosing the zooming Flyer as a target to shoot AT.

Which brings us to Blood Lance. As a PSA, the rule for Blood Lance is as follows,

Codex Blood Angels, page 63: The Blood Lance,

The power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any unit in the lance's path suffers a single strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

Well, we see that Blood Lance does not choose a target per the Warhammer 40k defined process. If you forgot the clarification on page 12, that means it doesn't "choose a target to shoot AT.

So going back to the top, page 81, Hard to Hit

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots..[/b]

As Blood Lance does not choose a target per the Warhammer 40k defined process for shooting, ie, it does not "choose a target to shoot AT, it is not a shot resolved AT a Zooming Flyer and therefore never triggers the requirement to be resolved as a Snap Shot.

Removed the silly, but seriously; if you cannot produce a RAW argument against this, just flat out admit you are trying to RAI in a houserule.

So what if you have 2 units hit by a Vibro Cannon?

First a tank, then the flyer.

With a vibro cannon it becomes even werider. You roll to hit, and say roll a 5. You draw the line and both vehicles take an automatic hit.

Since it's claimed you need to resolve it as a snap hot, would you 'miss' the first vehicle as well?

I don't see how the flyer would magically create 2 different to-hit rolls for each vehicle.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

It doesn't matter that they have already rolled to hit, because Hard to Hit tells you the shot can only be resolved as a snap shot,

And you're not allowed to roll to hit against units locked in close combat at all. Vibro cannons hit them just fine. They hit fliers too. They hit things they're not allowed to hit so long as the line goes through them.

Is it really your contention that "only hit with Snap Shots" is more restrictive than "cannot be shot at"?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

It doesn't matter that they have already rolled to hit, because Hard to Hit tells you the shot can only be resolved as a snap shot,

And you're not allowed to roll to hit against units locked in close combat at all. Vibro cannons hit them just fine. They hit fliers too. They hit things they're not allowed to hit so long as the line goes through them.

Is it really your contention that "only hit with Snap Shots" is more restrictive than "cannot be shot at"?

No you are not allowed to target units locked in close combat. You can hit (and wound) them just fine, as long as you do not target them. As such, blast weapons scattering can hit them. the Vibro Cannon (whihc has no target) can hit them. JotWW and Blood Lance cannot affect them. Templates have a rule specifying they cannot be placed to cover models in cc.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
And you're not allowed to roll to hit against units locked in close combat at all. Vibro cannons hit them just fine. They hit fliers too. They hit things they're not allowed to hit so long as the line goes through them.

Is it really your contention that "only hit with Snap Shots" is more restrictive than "cannot be shot at"?

yes, well you are misquoting but yes is the answer to the question you sought to approximate, I consider the involvement of the word "Resolved" to fundamentally render Hard to Hit very different from Shooting Into & Out Of Close Combat

Happyjew wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

It doesn't matter that they have already rolled to hit, because Hard to Hit tells you the shot can only be resolved as a snap shot,

And you're not allowed to roll to hit against units locked in close combat at all. Vibro cannons hit them just fine. They hit fliers too. They hit things they're not allowed to hit so long as the line goes through them.

Is it really your contention that "only hit with Snap Shots" is more restrictive than "cannot be shot at"?

No you are not allowed to target units locked in close combat. You can hit (and wound) them just fine, as long as you do not target them. As such, blast weapons scattering can hit them. the Vibro Cannon (whihc has no target) can hit them. JotWW and Blood Lance cannot affect them. Templates have a rule specifying they cannot be placed to cover models in cc.

Topic for a different thread, but JotWW can indeed affect models in close combat as only the first model affected by the power is considered the target model, everything else is just hit as the power goes through (SW FAQ). So as long as the first model is an eligible target (not in CC in this case) everything else is just hit as the power goes through.

Your getting caught up on the word "at". Understandable. In the end though, you have to resolve the shot.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Hmm, so what is the Warhammer 40k defined process for resolving a shot a something?

Theres actually two process' for this, you have found the first one on page 12 (and even quoted it! ). The one we are talking about though is found on page 74. Thats the set for resolving shots for vehicle models. Id also like to point out that I noted this on the big post.

In the end for vehicle models, youll still be resolving the shot with some form of a roll for penetration, correct? Thats a step of resolving the shot at a vehicle and the Hard to hit states that if your resolving a hit on a flyer, its counted as Snap Shots. Theres no way for you to get around this. Doesnt matter about the 'shot at' portion. Youll eventually move to resolve your shot on the flyer and thats where your Codex ended and the BRB steps in to resolve this shot. Now back in the realm of BRB vs BRB, the rules for Flyers are more specific and thats where your one shot gets (harhar) shot down. Nothing allows you to not resolve the shot at any time (cause such a rule does not exist); You are also not allowed to resolve each shot individually as it is a 'lance' type shot (granted, this is old fifth edition terminology). This shot is still counted as one Psychic Shooting attack, not one for each unit that the beam passed over. Thats why when you apply the rules from the Flyer which trump the shot resolving like normal, is the shot denied resolving due to it (the whole shot) being considered a Snap Shot once it passed over/under the Flyer. The results of you being able to resolve this snap shot now against the ground units that it hit is unable to finish resolution because the whole shot became a Snap Shot and is now unable to fire.
That sir is where the can of worms opens up. It would be a waste of time to redo the shot. Simplest forms to resolve it are either follow the rules as they are written and that would result in nothing happening bar the point spent and test passed. The other option is to discredit the Flyer resolution, despite this breaking the rules, but to keep the game moving, continue wth the ground units hit anyway.

Except the autohit totally bypassing the entirety of your post by not snapfiring.

Autohit: Yes, I wont dispute it.
Resolving: Power fails. I have proven this with rules. The codex does not bypass this function of the Psychic Shooting attack and as the rules for doing such are within the BRB, the BRB rules for Flyers trumps the resolution of the Psychic Shooting attack. Mind you, the rule for hard to hit has "resolve" within it. This is a part of the process that even the auto-hit that is The Blood Lance does not have permission to skip.

 Shandara wrote:
So what if you have 2 units hit by a Vibro Cannon?

First a tank, then the flyer.

With a vibro cannon it becomes even werider. You roll to hit, and say roll a 5. You draw the line and both vehicles take an automatic hit.

Since it's claimed you need to resolve it as a snap hot, would you 'miss' the first vehicle as well?

I don't see how the flyer would magically create 2 different to-hit rolls for each vehicle.

Not possible. You have to draw a line. A line has a definition. It's not a plane that goes up to infinity, it's a strait line with no width or depth. Vibro-cannons specifically says "through" a unit. Not over, not under, not around, but "through".

If it were to hit a tank and then bend up to a flyer, it would no longer be a "line".

Please make a new thread for the Vibro-canons for the Eldar folks. Ill pull up a codex and join it that later but please move that discussion out of this one.
Thank you. :3

Xzerios wrote:
Autohit: Yes, I wont dispute it.
Resolving: Power fails. I have proven this with rules. The codex does not bypass this function of the Psychic Shooting attack and as the rules for doing such are within the BRB, the BRB rules for Flyers trumps the resolution of the Psychic Shooting attack. Mind you, the rule for hard to hit has "resolve" within it. This is a part of the process that even the auto-hit that is The Blood Lance does not have permission to skip.

You have not proven anything will rules. What you have done is dismissed is the defined shooting process, specifically, choosing a target which you shoot at to make your argument.

Resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer means that you specifically chose that Zooming Fler as your target, per the defined shooting process. You chose to shoot AT that target. I am not reading into "at" and then coming up with some conspiracy theory against Zooming Flyers, I am applying the defined process for resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer.

If you're not resolving the hit at the flyer, then what are you doing Tyr?

Xzerios wrote:
Please make a new thread for the Vibro-canons for the Eldar folks. Ill pull up a codex and join it that later but please move that discussion out of this one.
Thank you. :3

We compare to Vibro Cannons because it is the closest non-psychic shooting attack. This is also the reason why some of us argued that Blood Lance still required a To Hit roll prior to the FAQ. Well that and the fact it was a PSA that did not say it autohit...

I have shown with rules sir you are unable to resolve that shot at the flier. Burden now falls you your camp to prove with either your Codex that your able to resolve this shot without resolving the shot with the BRB for your powers codex trumping ability to work as your defining it to.

Im going to save you from looking through the Blood Angels book here and tell you that you are unable to. Your own FaQ has told you that it is resolved like a normal Psychic Shooting Attack. This is in the BRB. The wording of The Blood Lance doesnt have a target specifically as its a 'lance' type power. No target, thats fine. Does your line cross a unit? Youll be resolving that shot using the rules to resolve that shot at the unit with either the rules for it on page 12, or on page 74. Again, there is no way around this. The wording for Hard to Hit states that -any shot- being resolved at a Flying model that was zooming is a Snap Shot. Since there is no process for you to not not resolve your shot with the Flyer and your codex does not resolve the shot, you are bound by the rules within the BRB to resolve the shot.


The Hard to Hit rule cares not about the targeted portion of your shot. Youll be resolving it at the Flyer and thats where the power falls apart as the rules from the BRB literally prevent you from doing so.

Xzerios wrote:
I have shown with rules sir you are unable to resolve that shot at the flier. Burden now falls you your camp to prove with either your Codex that your able to resolve this shot without resolving the shot with the BRB for your powers codex trumping ability to work as your defining it to. .

No argument from me. I agree that none of the 4 "line" "weapons" can affect Flyers, with the exception of the Death Ray fired with the Skyfire rule (which is possible). However in the Death Ray scenario it either hits Flyers/FMCs/Skimmers or Ground units (including Skimmers) but not both.


Damn Eldar and Tau having nothing but Skimmers... (War Walkers excluded of course)

Skyfire Nexus will allow them to hit Flyers.

Xzerios wrote:
Skyfire Nexus will allow them to hit Flyers.

I think this is outside of the area of discussion.

Or at least the answer to it. LoL

Xzerios wrote:
I have shown with rules sir you are unable to resolve that shot at the flier. Burden now falls you your camp to prove with either your Codex that your able to resolve this shot without resolving the shot with the BRB for your powers codex trumping ability to work as your defining it to.

Im going to save you from looking through the Blood Angels book here and tell you that you are unable to. Your own FaQ has told you that it is resolved like a normal Psychic Shooting Attack. This is in the BRB. The wording of The Blood Lance doesnt have a target specifically as its a 'lance' type power. No target, thats fine. Does your line cross a unit? Youll be resolving that shot using the rules to resolve that shot at the unit with either the rules for it on page 12, or on page 74. Again, there is no way around this. The wording for Hard to Hit states that -any shot- being resolved at a Flying model that was zooming is a Snap Shot. Since there is no process for you to not not resolve your shot with the Flyer and your codex does not resolve the shot, you are bound by the rules within the BRB to resolve the shot.


The Hard to Hit rule cares not about the targeted portion of your shot. Youll be resolving it at the Flyer and thats where the power falls apart as the rules from the BRB literally prevent you from doing so.

Actually no you haven't.

You are not resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer with Blood Lance as you never targeted it per the defined rules of both shooting at a vehicle and a Zooming Flyer. You continue to dismiss this key difference because it destroys your argument.

Blood Lance, as a PSA does indeed shoot, however it was never shot at a Zooming Flyer. You are not resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer in the case of Blood Lance, you are resolving a hit of a Zooming Flyer. Resolving a hit is part of the defined rules of making a shooting attack, however because the Zooming Flyer was never a target of the shooting attack, per the RAW on page 12,

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at.

It was never shot at. It was hit by Blood Lance, but per the rules I have cited, it was never shot at.

Now you keep saying that you have used the rules to prove your point, yet I see nothing cited that tells you that,

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots...

Is not referring to the defined process of making a shooting attack. You say that I am reading into "at" yet there is only one defined process for resolving a shooting attack in the BRB that tells you that you, "choose a target for them to shoot at." Even the rules for resolving shooting attacks at vehicles still requires that you follow and/or modify the general rules found on page 12 to account for armor penetration and vehicle damage. You will note however that both rules still follow the rules for choosing a target.

So I ask you since you have said that you have shown me in the rules, what rules are you using for resolving a shot?








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:
Your getting caught up on the word "at". Understandable. In the end though, you have to resolve the shot.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Hmm, so what is the Warhammer 40k defined process for resolving a shot a something?

Theres actually two process' for this, you have found the first one on page 12 (and even quoted it! ). The one we are talking about though is found on page 74. Thats the set for resolving shots for vehicle models. Id also like to point out that I noted this on the big post.

In the end for vehicle models, youll still be resolving the shot with some form of a roll for penetration, correct? Thats a step of resolving the shot at a vehicle and the Hard to hit states that if your resolving a hit on a flyer, its counted as Snap Shots. Theres no way for you to get around this. Doesnt matter about the 'shot at' portion. Youll eventually move to resolve your shot on the flyer and thats where your Codex ended and the BRB steps in to resolve this shot. Now back in the realm of BRB vs BRB, the rules for Flyers are more specific and thats where your one shot gets (harhar) shot down. Nothing allows you to not resolve the shot at any time (cause such a rule does not exist); You are also not allowed to resolve each shot individually as it is a 'lance' type shot (granted, this is old fifth edition terminology). This shot is still counted as one Psychic Shooting attack, not one for each unit that the beam passed over. Thats why when you apply the rules from the Flyer which trump the shot resolving like normal, is the shot denied resolving due to it (the whole shot) being considered a Snap Shot once it passed over/under the Flyer. The results of you being able to resolve this snap shot now against the ground units that it hit is unable to finish resolution because the whole shot became a Snap Shot and is now unable to fire.
That sir is where the can of worms opens up. It would be a waste of time to redo the shot. Simplest forms to resolve it are either follow the rules as they are written and that would result in nothing happening bar the point spent and test passed. The other option is to discredit the Flyer resolution, despite this breaking the rules, but to keep the game moving, continue wth the ground units hit anyway.

I decided to rip apart the first part of this post since there are so many mistakes in it.

Theres actually two process' for this, you have found the first one on page 12 (and even quoted it! ).

No, there is not two processes. Shooting at vehicles only makes some modifications to the general rules for shooting to account for such things as armor penetration and rolling for damage. As I noted, choosing a target remains the same.

In the end for vehicle models, youll still be resolving the shot with some form of a roll for penetration, correct?

No, you will be resolving a hit from Blood Lance with some form of a roll for penetration. Blood Lance did not shoot at the vehicle, but it still hit the vehicle.

Thats a step of resolving the shot at a vehicle and the Hard to hit states that if your resolving a hit on a flyer, its counted as Snap Shots.

No, Hard to Hit states that if you are resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer it can only be resolved as a Snap Shot

Doesnt matter about the 'shot at' portion.

Interesting statement considering that on page 12 it states, "Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at."

You keep saying that you use the rules, yet in what I have pointed out, it appears that you have not even read the rules.

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unlesst he model or weapon has the Skryfire special rule, as described on page 42)"
Quoted for clarity.

Tyr,
I do see what you're saying but your entire argument is set on your special interpretation of the word "AT". If my Psyker casts Blood Lance and hits a rhino, and IC and a Flyer. These statements help explain what happens.

I draw a line and my line HITS the rhino, the IC and the Flyer.
I did not choose a target, but I did aim this line to see what I'm shooting AT.
My psyker did not aim AT the rhino, the IC or the Flyer but he did shoot the Blood Lance AT everything that it hits.

These shots are still resolved AT (and against) the rhino, the IC and the Flyer.

Tyr, I see what you're trying to do, I really do. If you shoot a hill directly behind the model and oops, the shot hits the model, you still shot AT the model. This isn't a random effect where you accidentally put the line on someone. You aim it AT a line of enemy models. So to speak you are placing the line so you shoot at each of the models in the line.

I play Blood Angels and it would be great to have the only Psychic power in the game with a loophole that lets you hit flyers without Snap Fire, but unfortunately it doesn't work.

This psychic shooting attack is resolved AT the models the line hits, is not resolved with a BS so cannot be resolved as a Snap Shot and therefore - can not hit Flyers.

But if the 'shot' can not be resolved as a Snap Shot it could not hit the rhino either.

 Shandara wrote:
But if the 'shot' can not be resolved as a Snap Shot it could not hit the rhino either.

Why could it not hit the Rhino? There is no restriction that you have to Snap Shot to hit a Rhino (some exception apply, this is not one of them).