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Except you are not resolving a shot at all, you are resolving a hit. A shot would indicate a dice roll being required.

Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

Hitting it.
Remember, as was explained at length to me and in great detail with a little bit of mocking, shooting and shooting at are different things.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/452317.page
(warning - 5th ed argument, but the shoot == shoot at argument wasn't using rules anyway)

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

Hitting it.
Remember, as was explained at length to me and in great detail with a little bit of mocking, shooting and shooting at are different things.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/452317.page
(warning - 5th ed argument, but the shoot == shoot at argument wasn't using rules anyway)

So, hitting it isn't part of the resolution process anymore? Honestly, I don't care if blood lance is "bypassing" the to hit roll. It's technically NOT, it's automatically hitting it. It's the same thing with wraiths "automatically passing" dangerous terrain tests. They didn't bypass the test, they still rolled but they pass no matter what. It's the same with blood lance, you still roll but you hit no matter what. Which cannot happen against flyers without skyfire.

You can't take a step out of the resolution process just because something "automatically" happens. Similar to AP 2 weapons, no armor saves can ever be taken so a wound is automatically applied. That still counts as an unsaved wound (meaning you had to ROLL but you automatically fail), otherwise certain other effects would NEVER happen due to an unsaved wound (such as FNP). Do you see what I'm getting at with this?

To reiterate, just because something "automatically happens" does not mean it "is skipped" in the grand process.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unlesst he model or weapon has the Skryfire special rule, as described on page 42)"
Quoted for clarity.

Tyr,
I do see what you're saying but your entire argument is set on your special interpretation of the word "AT". If my Psyker casts Blood Lance and hits a rhino, and IC and a Flyer. These statements help explain what happens.

I draw a line and my line HITS the rhino, the IC and the Flyer.
I did not choose a target, but I did aim this line to see what I'm shooting AT.
My psyker did not aim AT the rhino, the IC or the Flyer but he did shoot the Blood Lance AT everything that it hits.

These shots are still resolved AT (and against) the rhino, the IC and the Flyer.

Tyr, I see what you're trying to do, I really do. If you shoot a hill directly behind the model and oops, the shot hits the model, you still shot AT the model. This isn't a random effect where you accidentally put the line on someone. You aim it AT a line of enemy models. So to speak you are placing the line so you shoot at each of the models in the line.

I play Blood Angels and it would be great to have the only Psychic power in the game with a loophole that lets you hit flyers without Snap Fire, but unfortunately it doesn't work.

This psychic shooting attack is resolved AT the models the line hits, is not resolved with a BS so cannot be resolved as a Snap Shot and therefore - can not hit Flyers.the Flyer.

ND, I know that the BA player is placing the line of Blood Lance so that he can hit the Rhino, IC, and Flyer. You are pointing out plain common sense that he is indeed shooting the PSA at the Rhino, the IC, and the Flyer. However the problem is that Warhammer 40k does not care one bit about common sense, it only cares about what the rules say.

That is the crux of the problem in so many RAW debates on this specific forum. People read a part of the rules and instantly equate the real world mechanics of what that rule says and forgo what it actually means in gaming terms. I have seen it so many times, not only regarding the rules for shooting, moving, assaulting, etc, and. Etc.

In this case you are taking the act of the player deliberately placing the 4d6 Blood Lance line so that it hits, the Rhino, the IC, and the Flyer and equating that to the librarian targetting and shooting at those models and thus it must be resolved as a Snap Shot. However per the rules, the Librarian as a model never chose the Rhino, the IC, or the Flyer as targets to shoot at. Per the rules you have to remove you as the player from the battlefield and accept that the Librarian didnt know that there was a Rhino, an IC, and a Flyer all lined up in a neat row and just cast Blood Lance in the general direction of the enemy lines and happened to hit a Rhino, an IC, and a Flyer all lined up in a neat row.

The rules tells us how to represent the psuedo reality of the Warhammer 40k battlefield. You cannot interject real world mechanics and common sense into those defined rules.

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

Hitting it.
Remember, as was explained at length to me and in great detail with a little bit of mocking, shooting and shooting at are different things.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/452317.page
(warning - 5th ed argument, but the shoot == shoot at argument wasn't using rules anyway)

So, hitting it isn't part of the resolution process anymore?

It absolutely is.
You're under the impression that shooting == shooting at, and if something has been hit, one of those things must have occurred.
I was informed otherwise in the thread I linked.

blood lance cannot hit flyers under the current rules.

blaktoof wrote:
blood lance cannot hit flyers under the current rules.

Care to cite a rule to support your position?
I'm not saying I disagree or agree with you, but assertions like that without rules are useless.

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

Hitting it.
Remember, as was explained at length to me and in great detail with a little bit of mocking, shooting and shooting at are different things.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/452317.page
(warning - 5th ed argument, but the shoot == shoot at argument wasn't using rules anyway)

So, hitting it isn't part of the resolution process anymore? Honestly, I don't care if blood lance is "bypassing" the to hit roll. It's technically NOT, it's automatically hitting it. It's the same thing with wraiths "automatically passing" dangerous terrain tests. They didn't bypass the test, they still rolled but they pass no matter what. It's the same with blood lance, you still roll but you hit no matter what. Which cannot happen against flyers without skyfire.

You can't take a step out of the resolution process just because something "automatically" happens. Similar to AP 2 weapons, no armor saves can ever be taken so a wound is automatically applied. That still counts as an unsaved wound (meaning you had to ROLL but you automatically fail), otherwise certain other effects would NEVER happen due to an unsaved wound (such as FNP). Do you see what I'm getting at with this?

To reiterate, just because something "automatically happens" does not mean it "is skipped" in the grand process.

The simplest way I can think of explaining it to you is as follows:

The recipe to bake a cake involves:

1. Placing cake mix in a mixing bowl.
2. Add two eggs to mixing bowl.
3. Mix.
4. Bake.

Now if i add two eggs to mixing bowl and bake it, did I make a cake?

It is the same with shot resolution. It is a defined process, of which choosing a target to shoot at is a step that is needed to trigger the Snap Shots clause in Hard to Hit.

blaktoof wrote:
blood lance cannot hit flyers under the current rules.

The codex description of the power, specifically says otherwise, so you will need some rules somewhere to prove this point.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
It is a defined process, of which choosing a target to shoot at is a step that is needed to trigger the Snap Shots clause in Hard to Hit.

Well since it is a defined process, which does not mention rolling to penetrate vehicles, then I guess you cannot resolve the shot against a vehicle.

rigeld2 wrote:

It absolutely is.
You're under the impression that shooting == shooting at, and if something has been hit, one of those things must have occurred.
I was informed otherwise in the thread I linked.

Perhaps if the player didn't choose where the line went, then I'd agree that you aren't shooting at something.

Though I am curious about something...since you have to "aim up" to fire the blood lance at a flyer....doesn't that seem a bit largely biased to the psyker? What with the "under the line" clause, would that still hit everything between the psyker and the flyer at that point? Or is it actually only models/units that are intersected by the line that take the hit?


Consequently, what are the odds your line will intersect a unit prior to hitting a flyer? Remember, you can't draw it to the base. Anyway, just conjecture or whatever.

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It absolutely is.
You're under the impression that shooting == shooting at, and if something has been hit, one of those things must have occurred.
I was informed otherwise in the thread I linked.

Perhaps if the player didn't choose where the line went, then I'd agree that you aren't shooting at something.

Though I am curious about something...since you have to "aim up" to fire the blood lance at a flyer....doesn't that seem a bit largely biased to the psyker? What with the "under the line" clause, would that still hit everything between the psyker and the flyer at that point? Or is it actually only models/units that are intersected by the line that take the hit?


Consequently, what are the odds your line will intersect a unit prior to hitting a flyer? Remember, you can't draw it to the base. Anyway, just conjecture or whatever.

That would be the Death Ray wording. There is a strong argument "under the line" to ignore Flyers because the base is ignored for most purposes. However, Blood Lances says "in the path of the line" which is far more generic.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


The simplest way I can think of explaining it to you is as follows:

The recipe to bake a cake involves:

1. Placing cake mix in a mixing bowl.
2. Add two eggs to mixing bowl.
3. Mix.
4. Bake.

Now if i add two eggs to mixing bowl and bake it, did I make a cake?

It is the same with shot resolution. It is a defined process, of which choosing a target to shoot at is a step that is needed to trigger the Snap Shots clause in Hard to Hit.

You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It absolutely is.
You're under the impression that shooting == shooting at, and if something has been hit, one of those things must have occurred.
I was informed otherwise in the thread I linked.

Perhaps if the player didn't choose where the line went, then I'd agree that you aren't shooting at something.

Though I am curious about something...since you have to "aim up" to fire the blood lance at a flyer....doesn't that seem a bit largely biased to the psyker? What with the "under the line" clause, would that still hit everything between the psyker and the flyer at that point? Or is it actually only models/units that are intersected by the line that take the hit?


Consequently, what are the odds your line will intersect a unit prior to hitting a flyer? Remember, you can't draw it to the base. Anyway, just conjecture or whatever.

That would be the Death Ray wording. There is a strong argument "under the line" to ignore Flyers because the base is ignored for most purposes. However, Blood Lances says "in the path of the line" which is far more generic.

Oh does it say in the path? That's good to know then.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).

Well, no. There's no target chosen until after the line is drawn - there cannot be since that's what decides your target.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).

Well, no. There's no target chosen until after the line is drawn - there cannot be since that's what decides your target.

That is not what decides your target, that is what decides what you hit. The BA FAQ then goes on to clarify that the first unit you hit is the only unit that you are then allowed to assault. To then try and equate that with the rules for only being able to assault that which you have targeted is adding parameters to the BA FAQ that are just not there.

OK I found a sentence in the Blood Angels FAQ that may alter the discussion a bit:

"Blood Lance is a shooting atack that can hit multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit/s is he permitted to assault?"

Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance


Now we don't need much brain to conclude the following:

The librarian is allowed to assault the unit he chose as his target for shooting. Since the FAQ disallows him to assault any unit hit by the Blood Lance beyond the first, this means necessarily that all units except for the first one are in fact not targets of his shooting. Furthermore it means that the first unit has to be treated as his target since he made a shooting attack and is able to assault the first unit.

That means the line cannot be traced in such a way that a flyer is first unit under the line, because then the game breaks. (You chose an invalid target for your shooting attack)
But if a flyer happens to be hit by the line after another unit, he must suffer the result since he wasn't target of the shooting attack.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).

Well, no. There's no target chosen until after the line is drawn - there cannot be since that's what decides your target.

That is not what decides your target, that is what decides what you hit. The BA FAQ then goes on to clarify that the first unit you hit is the only unit that you are then allowed to assault. To then try and equate that with the rules for only being able to assault that which you have targeted is adding parameters to the BA FAQ that are just not there.

Uhm...except for the line in the rulebook that says a unit can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turns shooting phase. The FAQ is only a clarification of the blood lance and assaulting rule, it's not changing the fundamentals of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
OK I found a sentence in the Blood Angels FAQ that may alter the discussion a bit:

"Blood Lance is a shooting atack that can hit multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit/s is he permitted to assault?"

Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance


Now we don't need much brain to conclude the following:

The librarian is allowed to assault the unit he chose as his target for shooting. Since the FAQ disallows him to assault any unit hit by the Blood Lance beyond the first, this means necessarily that all units except for the first one are in fact not targets of his shooting. Furthermore it means that the first unit has to be treated as his target since he made a shooting attack and is able to assault the first unit.

That means the line cannot be traced in such a way that a flyer is first unit under the line, because then the game breaks. (You chose an invalid target for your shooting attack)
But if a flyer happens to be hit by the line after another unit, he must suffer the result since he wasn't target of the shooting attack.

Again I'll say, the shooting sequence only requires you to choose a target, nothing in snap shots or hard to hit requires the target to be the flyer to trigger those limitations.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).

Well, no. There's no target chosen until after the line is drawn - there cannot be since that's what decides your target.

That is not what decides your target, that is what decides what you hit. The BA FAQ then goes on to clarify that the first unit you hit is the only unit that you are then allowed to assault. To then try and equate that with the rules for only being able to assault that which you have targeted is adding parameters to the BA FAQ that are just not there.

Uhm...except for the line in the rulebook that says a unit can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turns shooting phase. The FAQ is only a clarification of the blood lance and assaulting rule, it's not changing the fundamentals of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
OK I found a sentence in the Blood Angels FAQ that may alter the discussion a bit:

"Blood Lance is a shooting atack that can hit multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit/s is he permitted to assault?"

Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance


Now we don't need much brain to conclude the following:

The librarian is allowed to assault the unit he chose as his target for shooting. Since the FAQ disallows him to assault any unit hit by the Blood Lance beyond the first, this means necessarily that all units except for the first one are in fact not targets of his shooting. Furthermore it means that the first unit has to be treated as his target since he made a shooting attack and is able to assault the first unit.

That means the line cannot be traced in such a way that a flyer is first unit under the line, because then the game breaks. (You chose an invalid target for your shooting attack)
But if a flyer happens to be hit by the line after another unit, he must suffer the result since he wasn't target of the shooting attack.

Again I'll say, the shooting sequence only requires you to choose a target, nothing in snap shots or hard to hit requires the target to be the flyer to trigger those limitations.

You are reading the FAQ wrong.

The FAQ is not clarifying that Blood Lance targets the first unit it hits and is thus allowed to assault it. The FAQ is clarifying that the only unit it can assault is the first unit the power hit. You are adding the BRB targeting/assault requirements to the FAQ to bolster your flawed argument, without any rules support to do so. If the Blood Lance was FAQ'd like the JotWW FAQ, then you would have a leg to stand on as it specifically tells you to treat the first model affected by the power as the target model. However you cannot infer that the Blood Lance FAQ insinuates the first model hit by the power must be the target model because you are allowed to assault it after you hit it.

The shooting sequence requires that you choose a target to shoot AT. The Hard to Hit rule tells you that when you are resolving a shot AT a Zooming Flyer, you trigger Snap Shots if you do not have Skyfire. Read the rules completely instead of paraphrasing them to bolster your argument.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

ND, I know that the BA player is placing the line of Blood Lance so that he can hit the Rhino, IC, and Flyer. You are pointing out plain common sense that he is indeed shooting the PSA at the Rhino, the IC, and the Flyer. However the problem is that Warhammer 40k does not care one bit about common sense, it only cares about what the rules say.

I'm not using "common sense", I am using "common understanding" of the RAW. I agree this isn't the same as applying the exact game terms more commonly used, but 40k has never been that precise.

Your whole argument relies on the word "AT" instead of "AGAINST". When every other rule in the game plays a certain way and flyers just can't be hit by such powers, to make a whole change of playstyle based on this strict interpretation must be plainly wrong. Following RAW doesn't require common sense or real world analogies, but it does require you to understand the rule in the common speech used in writing it.

It's safe to say that shooting attacks that hit the flyer are the shots that are resolved at the flyer.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

You are reading the FAQ wrong.

The FAQ is not clarifying that Blood Lance targets the first unit it hits and is thus allowed to assault it. The FAQ is clarifying that the only unit it can assault is the first unit the power hit. You are adding the BRB targeting/assault requirements to the FAQ to bolster your flawed argument, without any rules support to do so. If the Blood Lance was FAQ'd like the JotWW FAQ, then you would have a leg to stand on as it specifically tells you to treat the first model affected by the power as the target model. However you cannot infer that the Blood Lance FAQ insinuates the first model hit by the power must be the target model because you are allowed to assault it after you hit it.

The shooting sequence requires that you choose a target to shoot AT. The Hard to Hit rule tells you that when you are resolving a shot AT a Zooming Flyer, you trigger Snap Shots if you do not have Skyfire. Read the rules completely instead of paraphrasing them to bolster your argument.

So...now we're just choosing to decide how rules work and are interpreted to benefit whoever?

I think I'm finished then.

Again I'll say, the shooting sequence only requires you to choose a target, nothing in snap shots or hard to hit requires the target to be the flyer to trigger those limitations.

Hard to hit requires the flyer to be shot at to force the shooting unit to snapfire. Now compare that with the wording of "choose a target"...

And to ask the other way round: Where in the shooting process can you quote me this specific wording when it comes to hits and penetration?


@Tyr

The FAQ is not clarifying that Blood Lance targets the first unit it hits and is thus allowed to assault it. The FAQ is clarifying that the only unit it can assault is the first unit the power hit.

You are right about that. There can be another reason why the librarian is allowed to assault than the unit being his target. But lets expand the issue a bit and assume that he is attached to a unit. Since you assume that the Blood Lance does not have a target the unit should be free to shoot at a unit they like. Lets assume they shot at a completely different unit. Does that mean the unit is unable to assault afterwards since their target was the unit the regulars shot at and the librarian is restricted to assault them as well as they are disallowed to assault the first unit under the librarians line?

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

ND, I know that the BA player is placing the line of Blood Lance so that he can hit the Rhino, IC, and Flyer. You are pointing out plain common sense that he is indeed shooting the PSA at the Rhino, the IC, and the Flyer. However the problem is that Warhammer 40k does not care one bit about common sense, it only cares about what the rules say.

I'm not using "common sense", I am using "common understanding" of the RAW. I agree this isn't the same as applying the exact game terms more commonly used, but 40k has never been that precise.

Your whole argument relies on the word "AT" instead of "AGAINST". When every other rule in the game plays a certain way and flyers just can't be hit by such powers, to make a whole change of playstyle based on this strict interpretation must be plainly wrong. Following RAW doesn't require common sense or real world analogies, but it does require you to understand the rule in the common speech used in writing it.

It's safe to say that shooting attacks that hit the flyer are the shots that are resolved at the flyer.

I find it quite funny that everyone against the Blood Lance hitting a Zooming Flyer hinges their entire argument on dismissing the "AT" in resolving a shot "AT" a Zooming Flyer.

Do you think I just pulled "AT" out of my arse?

Page 12, The Shooting Sequence

2. Choosing a target. The unit can shoot AT one enemy unit that it can see.

Page 12, CHOOSE A TARGET

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target to shoot AT.

Page 13, WHICH MODELS CAN FIRE?

All models in the unit must shoot AT the same target unit.

Page 73, SHOOTING AT VEHICLES

When a unit fires AT a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret.

<snip>

As the whole unit must fire AT the same target, this often means that some of their weapons can't damage the target vehicle,.....

And yet somehow I am reading too much into,

Page 81, Hard to Hit

Shots resolved AT a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

?????

How about I make my counter-accusation? Everyone against Blood Lance not hitting Zooming Flyers are willfully ignoring "Shots resolved AT..." as a reference to the defined shooting process in Warhammer 40k to bolster their flawed argument.

Tyr, you are right. Or, you are maybe right, but it's ambiguous. You are definitely not wrong though (we've already covered ambiguous).

However, you will not convince these people. Yes, all they want is the last word, they don't care if they are right. Just let them have it. No further use is being drawn here since the last 4 pages have brought nothing actual new to the question or answer.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tyr, you are right. Or, you are maybe right, but it's ambiguous. You are definitely not wrong though (we've already covered ambiguous).

However, you will not convince these people. Yes, all they want is the last word, they don't care if they are right. Just let them have it. No further use is being drawn here since the last 4 pages have brought nothing actual new to the question or answer.

I find it funny that the main counterpoint is,

"Well Tyr, "AT" isn't really what you think it is."

Seriously? That is it without anything to back up that assertation? At least I can back up my interpretation of what they mean when they use "AT" with cited rules.

I agree, done with this circus.

tYR ARGUMENT HAS BEEN SOLELY ON THE FACT YOUR NOT TARGETING ANYTHING. oops

Right I think we all understand that. So based on that there is no roll to hit just auto hits. In the 5th edition it was perfect there was no contradicting rules, nor where there rules for flyers. However there is rules for flyers and them rules gots to be followed since narry one codex has written rules to the contrary.

Blood lance dosent target and Hard to hit has zero venacular to say its targeted just resolveing. So as written the blood lance fails o hit a flyer, and hits everything else except whats written in the codex as exclusions.

Id say lets comprimise for now and let all ground units be hit 4d6 and when it cross's a flyer roll a dice and if ya get a six BAM!!!! the flyer is hit and everybody wins. Easy Peasy

We all have our ideas about FAQ and Gw it would be silly to expect them to rule one way or the other when they get to sit around read these forums and laugh at us DAFT people
making something simple so impossible.

Well Tyr, resolve the Psychic Shooting attack with the Flyer then. Please, go on good sir. :3

Lungpickle wrote:
tYR ARGUMENT HAS BEEN SOLELY ON THE FACT YOUR NOT TARGETING ANYTHING. oops

Right I think we all understand that. So based on that there is no roll to hit just auto hits. In the 5th edition it was perfect there was no contradicting rules, nor where there rules for flyers. However there is rules for flyers and them rules gots to be followed since narry one codex has written rules to the contrary.

Blood lance dosent target and Hard to hit has zero venacular to say its targeted just resolveing. So as written the blood lance fails o hit a flyer, and hits everything else except whats written in the codex as exclusions.

Id say lets comprimise for now and let all ground units be hit 4d6 and when it cross's a flyer roll a dice and if ya get a six BAM!!!! the flyer is hit and everybody wins. Easy Peasy

We all have our ideas about FAQ and Gw it would be silly to expect them to rule one way or the other when they get to sit around read these forums and laugh at us DAFT people
making something simple so impossible.

Is English your second or third language by chance?

Ok, so blood lance is a random distance PSA.
It does not target things as normal.

So, i fire it towards a flyer and the roll comes up short.
Was it fired at the flyer, or just towards it?

Same thing again, but this time the distance is enough to pass through/over/under it, was it fired at it?

Blood lance states it can move as needed to hit targets in higher areas.
Does not state a limit on height, so the sky is still fair game.

Problem is, you are not actually firing it at anything, you are just firing it in a general direction.
Someone earlier said if it was a random direction it would be fine.
How so? its still not fired at anything, you have just made it ineffective to use against anything at any point in time.

Now, rules state that it needs to be "fired at" for the whole flyer rules to kick in.
This shooting attack does not have a target, thus you are not firing it at anything specific, just in a general direction.
Firing something towards a model does not mean you are firing at it.

If i fire a lance at a unit of boyz and it goes through them and into a 2nd unit behind them, i havent shot at them, infact, i didnt shoot at the 1st unit.
I simply fired it towards them.

Granted the whole debate hinges on the word "at" but it needs to.
Firing towards and at something are nowhere near the same thing.
The rules use "fired at" as a trigger to activate flyer rules.
If said trigger is not activated, i would assume the rules related to it are never brought into use.

Hold up folks. Put the at/against discussion part aside.


I want Tyr to resolve the shot with the Flyer unit.