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@Tyr

Page 12, The Shooting Sequence

2. Choosing a target. The unit can shoot AT one enemy unit that it can see.



Page 12, CHOOSE A TARGET

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target to shoot AT.



Page 13, WHICH MODELS CAN FIRE?

All models in the unit must shoot AT the same target unit.



Page 73, SHOOTING AT VEHICLES

When a unit fires AT a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret.

<snip>

As the whole unit must fire AT the same target, this often means that some of their weapons can't damage the target vehicle,.....



And yet somehow I am reading too much into,

Page 81, Hard to Hit

Shots resolved AT a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.



?????

How about I make my counter-accusation? Everyone against Blood Lance not hitting Zooming Flyers are willfully ignoring "Shots resolved AT..." as a reference to the defined shooting process in Warhammer 40k to bolster their flawed argument.

Page 12 and 13 does not apply to blood lance since it doesnt have a nominated target obviously. You were the one saying that. Now don't try to use wordings from that paragraph to support your argument. This is not particularly credible.
Page 73 also doesn't apply to blood lance since it doesnt need LOS. So this part is also invalid for our discussion.

The whole targetting process is skipped and therefore all reference to target units (i.e. the word AT) as well. This is the reason why blood lance is not shot at a certain unit. So it is not a shot at someone resolved but a hit on someone. Big difference.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
@Tyr

Page 12, The Shooting Sequence

2. Choosing a target. The unit can shoot AT one enemy unit that it can see.



Page 12, CHOOSE A TARGET

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target to shoot AT.



Page 13, WHICH MODELS CAN FIRE?

All models in the unit must shoot AT the same target unit.



Page 73, SHOOTING AT VEHICLES

When a unit fires AT a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret.

<snip>

As the whole unit must fire AT the same target, this often means that some of their weapons can't damage the target vehicle,.....



And yet somehow I am reading too much into,

Page 81, Hard to Hit

Shots resolved AT a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.



?????

How about I make my counter-accusation? Everyone against Blood Lance not hitting Zooming Flyers are willfully ignoring "Shots resolved AT..." as a reference to the defined shooting process in Warhammer 40k to bolster their flawed argument.

Page 12 and 13 does not apply to blood lance since it doesnt have a nominated target obviously. You were the one saying that. Now don't try to use wordings from that paragraph to support your argument. This is not particularly credible.
Page 73 also doesn't apply to blood lance since it doesnt need LOS. So this part is also invalid for our discussion.

The whole targetting process is skipped and therefore all reference to target units (i.e. the word AT) as well. This is the reason why blood lance is not shot at a certain unit. So it is not a shot at someone resolved but a hit on someone. Big difference.

You do know you that if you actually read my posts in this thread that you would see that has been my premise all along? That the Hard to Hit rule refers specifically to all the examples I have given and because Blood Lance does not use any of those examples I listed, Hard to Hit does not apply to Blood Lance.

/facepalm

You do know you that if you actually read my posts in this thread that you would see that has been my premise all along? That the Hard to Hit rule refers specifically to all the examples I have given and because Blood Lance does not use any of those examples I listed, Hard to Hit does not apply to Blood Lance.

/facepalm

Yes, because I did read your posts I do know that you you were argueing in favour of blood lance. So I was wondering why you wrote such a post (The one I quoted before). If it was irony, I couldnt find it behind your language. Sorry about that. Still no aggression or facepalm needed, mate...

So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

Xzerios wrote:
So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

So, how are you going to resolve the shot without resolving it at the Flyer if it was struck by the shot?


Cause once more, if you dont have Skyfire and are going to resolve shots with a Flyer, your Snap Firing as Hard to Hit has stated. As it stands Tyr, the only thing that The Blood Lance has managed to do is prevent the Flyer from taking its Evade rule. We wont get to that rule though cause youll still have to resolve your shot and due to Hard to Hit, you cant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

... Wait, you want me to show you how to resolve shots at a flyer? Thats all your asking? Page 74 sir. The whole process for Resolving Shots on that page does so.

Now, you need to prove that your Shot does not need to be resolved at the Flyer without resolving in order to get around Hard to Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

As much as you would like to claim the shot was not targeted at the flyer, or somehow the flyer was hit, but the shot wasn't fire AT the flyer, all shots that hit a flyer, were shot AT the flyer.

I put a gun over my shoulder and fire blind, if I hit a cat, I still fired the gun AT the cat.

Just because you didn't "choose a target" or other special term your psyker is still firing AT the flyer. This is what you cannot get around no matter how you try.

Xzerios wrote:
So, how are you going to resolve the shot without resolving it at the Flyer if it was struck by the shot?


Cause once more, if you dont have Skyfire and are going to resolve shots with a Flyer, your Snap Firing as Hard to Hit has stated. As it stands Tyr, the only thing that The Blood Lance has managed to do is prevent the Flyer from taking its Evade rule. We wont get to that rule though cause youll still have to resolve your shot and due to Hard to Hit, you cant.

/sigh

I feel like Michael Coreleone. Pay attention Xzerios and read, NOT SKIM OVER, but read the following;

Page 67, Manifesting Psychic Powers
Page 68, Types of Psychic Powers: Powers Without a Type

As a shooting attack, I start with the Shooting Sequence,

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot: BA Librarian.

Having nominated a BA Librarian to use a PSA, I need to now reference Manifesting Psychic Powers

1. Expend Warp Charge: BA Librarian reduces his Warp Charge by 1
2. Declare Target: You do not declare a target with the Blood Lathe PSA.
3. Take Psychic Test: BA Librarian takes a psychic test.
4. Deny the Witch: No enemy was targeted by the Blood Lance PSA so no Deny the Witch roll is granted.
5. Resolve Psychic Power: Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarians base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendlu units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

***A quick question Xzerios, do you see anything above that indicates that I am shooting at a Zooming Flyer? Yea, didn't thinks so.

6. A Zooming Flyer is in the lance's path and suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type.
7. As a Zooming Flyer is a vehicle you do not roll to wound, but instead roll for armor penetration to determine if the hit is a glancing or penetrating hit.
8. As a Zooming Flyer is a vehicle, you resolve damage from the glancing or penetrating hit.

Feel free to ramble on about how resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer is not what I think it is and that I am reading into, "AT".

This may have been mentioned already, have not really looked at the whole thread, but... When is the Blood Lance used? In the Shooting phase? And if it is, wouldn't that put it under a shooting attack?

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

As much as you would like to claim the shot was not targeted at the flyer, or somehow the flyer was hit, but the shot wasn't fire AT the flyer, all shots that hit a flyer, were shot AT the flyer.

I put a gun over my shoulder and fire blind, if I hit a cat, I still fired the gun AT the cat.

Just because you didn't "choose a target" or other special term your psyker is still firing AT the flyer. This is what you cannot get around no matter how you try.

This isn't Cathammer 40k.

If it was however,

As you did not declare the cat as the target of your over the shoulder blind firing attack, you were not shooting at the cat even if you did indeed hit the cat.

Cathammer 40k is not real life yp.

Garukadon wrote:
This may have been mentioned already, have not really looked at the whole thread, but... When is the Blood Lance used? In the Shooting phase? And if it is, wouldn't that put it under a shooting attack?

...it's a Psychic Shooting Attack. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Ok, since you dont want to finish resolving your shot. Ill take the STR8 hit. My Flyer has AV11 all the way around. You do nothing.


Oh, you want to roll to pen? Guess what your doing? (heres the part where the music for opening a chest from any Zelda game plays) Resolving your shot~~~~


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pg 81 BRB wrote:
Hard To Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

Na~ Na~ Naaaaaa~

Xzerios wrote:
Ok, since you dont want to finish resolving your shot. Ill take the STR8 hit. My Flyer has AV11 all the way around. You do nothing.


Oh, you want to roll to pen? Guess what your doing? (heres the part where the music for opening a chest from any Zelda game plays) Resolving your shot~~~~

I see your finally getting it. Now you roll your Armor pen and see what happens.

Xzerios wrote:
Ok, since you dont want to finish resolving your shot. Ill take the STR8 hit. My Flyer has AV11 all the way around. You do nothing.


Oh, you want to roll to pen? Guess what your doing? (heres the part where the music for opening a chest from any Zelda game plays) Resolving your shot~~~~


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pg 81 BRB wrote:
Hard To Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

Na~ Na~ Naaaaaa~

Let me fix that selective reaiding problem of yours.

At what point is Blood Lance declaring the Zooming Flyer a target and rolling to hit it? I listed the entire breakdown of the rules for you and you cannot even grasp the basic concept of shooting at a target as defined in the rules. You grasp, or lack thereof, the rules is so painful that it almost seems deliberate.

Good sir, you still need to resolve your shot. Your codex has stated that it never has to roll to hit and that will deny the Flyer model Evade as it works. However, you will still need the BRB to resolve your shot (cause the codex doesnt do that step). Thats where you run aground with the logic I have put forth. In order for your power to work as your describing, you have to show me that your shot is able to resolve itself, without resolving to deny the model Hard to Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:At what point is Blood Lance declaring the Zooming Flyer a target and rolling to hit it? I listed the entire breakdown of the rules for you and you cannot even grasp the basic concept of shooting at a target as defined in the rules.

Do you really think Im arguing you not hitting the model. I refer you back to your own logic. Im talking about the resolving part of the shot, you know, the part that comes after you (in this case have not) rolled to hit.

Xzerios wrote:
Good sir, you still need to resolve your shot. Your codex has stated that it never has to roll to hit and that will deny the Flyer model Evade as it works. However, you will still need the BRB to resolve your shot (cause the codex doesnt do that step). Thats where you run aground with the logic I have put forth. In order for your power to work as your describing, you have to show me that your shot is able to resolve itself, without resolving to deny the model Hard to Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:At what point is Blood Lance declaring the Zooming Flyer a target and rolling to hit it? I listed the entire breakdown of the rules for you and you cannot even grasp the basic concept of shooting at a target as defined in the rules.

Do you really think Im arguing you not hitting the model. I refer you back to your own logic. Im talking about the resolving part of the shot, you know, the part that comes after you (in this case have not) rolled to hit.

You fail again.....haahahahaha!

All I have to show you is that I am not resolving a shot AT A ZOOMING FLYER. That is shown both on page 12, where the Librarian does not choose to shoot at a Zooming Flyer and in the fact that Blood Lance does not require a roll to hit the Zooming Flyer. From that point on, I am not resolving a shot AT A ZOOMING FLYER, I am resolving a STRENGTH 8, AP 1, LANCE HIT ON A ZOOMING FLYER. Roll for armor penetration as normal and resolve damage as normal.

You seriously have no idea how rules interact in the different sections of the rulebook do you?

Read Hard to hit, did you see the part where it talked about rolling to hit? Neither did I. Its only interaction with your shot is the resolution. You can use the word 'on', 'at' and even 'against' in your sentence but Hard to Hit cares not what word your using. Your resolving, and thats not permitted by the profile of your shot.

You have nothing that prevents his resolution. Only something that would force him to fire via snapfire IF he targeted it.


Here ill quote you:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

Bolded for emphasis.

He does not meet the criteria to trigger the snapshot. This has been pointed out numerous times and you agreed.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
You have nothing that prevents his resolution. Only something that would force him to fire via snapfire IF he targeted it.


Here ill quote you:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

Bolded for emphasis.

He does not meet the criteria to trigger the snapshot. This has been pointed out numerous times and you agreed.

You are correct. There is nothing that can prevent him from resolving his shot. The trigger condition to Hard to hit is when you move to resolve your damage against it, not when you didnt roll to hit. If you claim its not targeted by the shot, how are you going to resolve your shot without resolving your shot? You still need page 74 to resolve your penetrating hit on the vehicle and thats where Hard to Hit tells you that it must be resolved as a Snap Shot. Since his lance Psychic Shooting Attack is disallowed by Snap Fire, the shot cant be resolved as it has been disallowed from firing in the first place. Simply put, in order for your model to finish its shot, you got to go through that resolution. If you state that its bypassing the 'hit', then its bypassing the resolution, but you cant bypass your shot resolution. What is your shot going to be resolved against? Resolution still requires a target as its worded and as your codex functions, you will need page 74 to finish your shot. If your unable to fill in the blank, the game goes to wonk land.


So, I ask your side, are you going to use the rules on page 74 (which will usher in Hard to Hit as it functions), or are you going to sit there with an unresolved shot with a Flyer model?

The snap shot reference in that sentence refers to shooting at a vehicle. As far as the sentence is concerned "resolve" refers to hitting as a Snap shot and has nothing to do with rolling on a damage table.

The trigger condition to Hard to hit is when you move to resolve your damage against it,

This is a made up rule.

Pg 81 BRB wrote:
Hard To Hit
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

When I roll to hit I resolve the shot, nothing in this text governs anything related to damage results in any way.

If I hit the target automatically the "shot" is resolved. Period.

Again, nothing in the H2H rule here mentions damage results at all. More to the point not only are we moving on to an entirely different step after striking a vehicle with a hit but we reference an entirely different table.

You have no grounds to support your claim that resolving a shot continues past determining a hit or miss.

The wording of the rule itself should give insight.

# 1 The rule references shooting at a target, the flyer in this case.
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

#2 the next portion references to hit and weapons that are unable to do so.
Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

again, zero mention of hard to hit governing anything outside being shot at. Not one mention of determining damage results. Your argument is simply not supported by the rule you cite.

The process for firing your weapon(s) is outlined at the back of the book with the game summary. The whole entirety of the shooting phase outlines what you must do to resolve your shot.
First, choose a target: Codex trumps. It has stated with the power that no target will be declared.
Next, Roll to Hit: Again, codex trumps. The FaQ outlines that the power does not roll to hit. This causes a myriad of issues to arrise. Due in nature to this coming from a Codex, those issues are trumped.
The next step here is where we must figure out what we are about to resolve the shot against; Non-vehicle units, or vehicle units as both have different rules to resolve the shot. This is also where the Codex' trumping power ends folks. Since the Codex nor the Psychic Shooting attack has either of these sets of rules to finish resolving the shot, you are differed to use the BRB.
(non-vehicle units) Roll to wound: you use this rule as normal. Cover saves and invulnerable saves apply and once those have been taken and results of those saves either success or failure; the shot is now resolved
(vehicle units) you roll a D6 and add that to your shots strength and that gives you the results of your penetration result. Remove Hull Points for glances and follow the penetrating chart to resolve the effects of the shot if it penetrated. Once the results of the shot have been applied to the vehicle, in either successful glance or penetrating hit; the shot is resolved.
Its the Roll to Wound bit that the codex doesnt trump. You say no target for the declare target? No problem, codex says so. You say no need to Roll to Hit? No problem, codex says so. You say no need to Roll to wound? Sorry, BRB says you still must to resolve the shot as the codex didnt give you permission to skip this part and auto-apply the results. Work the rule for non-vehicles accordingly, just as you must for vehicles.
Its in this step of your resolution of the shot that Hard to Hit steps up and now stops you from finishing your shot. Again, Hard to Hit stated that "Shots Resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots". Since you must use the BRB to resolve the shot in the Roll to Wound step; and this rule is more specific than Resolving Damage from page 74, your shot is now subject to Snap Shots.

Since you must use the BRB to resolve the shot in the Roll to Wound step

Incorrect, there is no roll to wound step with the ability being discussed in this thread.

Then... how are you wounding/penetrating the unit?

Exactly as Tyr has outlined since page 1.

He only spoke of the Declaring a Target and Rolling to Hit portion of these rules. Rolling to Wound was not mentioned on the first page. If you want to go by what the rule states, it mentions a STR8, AP1 hit. Against a Flyer, a STR8 hit wont bring down any flyer currently out.

Against a Flyer, a STR8 hit wont bring down any flyer currently out.

Irrelevant.

The ability hits anything under the line. Anything hit by the ability suffers a STR 8 hit. Period. This is not vague.

This line of argument is known as a red herring.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

So, your going to roll to penetrate on the flyer right? Cause thats part of resolving the shot and that part that the codex is unable trump and Hard to Hit then trumps the rules for Rolling to Wound. Since you agree that the model will be using the rules for Rolling to Wound, it now follows that path of how the rules interact as once again, the Codex' trumping power from page seven only covered two portions of resolving the hit. The "Suffers a single Strength 8, AP1 hit with the 'lance' type" is only the stat block for helping you resolve your shot in the Rolling to Wound section of the rules.

Xzerios wrote:
The process for firing your weapon(s) is outlined at the back of the book with the game summary. The whole entirety of the shooting phase outlines what you must do to resolve your shot.
First, choose a target: Codex trumps. It has stated with the power that no target will be declared.
Next, Roll to Hit: Again, codex trumps. The FaQ outlines that the power does not roll to hit. This causes a myriad of issues to arrise. Due in nature to this coming from a Codex, those issues are trumped.
The next step here is where we must figure out what we are about to resolve the shot against; Non-vehicle units, or vehicle units as both have different rules to resolve the shot. This is also where the Codex' trumping power ends folks. Since the Codex nor the Psychic Shooting attack has either of these sets of rules to finish resolving the shot, you are differed to use the BRB.
(non-vehicle units) Roll to wound: you use this rule as normal. Cover saves and invulnerable saves apply and once those have been taken and results of those saves either success or failure; the shot is now resolved
(vehicle units) you roll a D6 and add that to your shots strength and that gives you the results of your penetration result. Remove Hull Points for glances and follow the penetrating chart to resolve the effects of the shot if it penetrated. Once the results of the shot have been applied to the vehicle, in either successful glance or penetrating hit; the shot is resolved.
Its the Roll to Wound bit that the codex doesnt trump. You say no target for the declare target? No problem, codex says so. You say no need to Roll to Hit? No problem, codex says so. You say no need to Roll to wound? Sorry, BRB says you still must to resolve the shot as the codex didnt give you permission to skip this part and auto-apply the results. Work the rule for non-vehicles accordingly, just as you must for vehicles.
Its in this step of your resolution of the shot that Hard to Hit steps up and now stops you from finishing your shot. Again, Hard to Hit stated that "Shots Resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots". Since you must use the BRB to resolve the shot in the Roll to Wound step; and this rule is more specific than Resolving Damage from page 74, your shot is now subject to Snap Shots.

So are you screen shotting the digital copy or a hacked copy of the 6th Edition rulebook or something, because what you have posted is not in my book or in the summary at the back of the book. From the summary in the back of my rulebook regarding resolving Armor Penetration:

- Against vehicle units: instead of using the chart, add the number rolled on the dice to the weapon's Strength.

If the total equals the Armor Value of the appropriate facing (see page 73), a glancing hit has been scored.

If the total beats the Armor Value of the appropriate facing, a penetrating hit has been scored.

- If the vehicle is obscured (see page 75) or is granted a saving throw from another source, it can attempt a saving throw against each glancing and penetrating hit.
- Reduce the vehicles Hull Points by 1 for each unsaved glancing or penetrating hit.
- Finally roll on the table below for each unsaved penetrating hit.

Add 1 to each roll caused by a weapon with an AP value of 2.

Add 2 to each roll caused by a weapon with an AP value of 1 (see page 74)

Add a further 1 to every roll if the target vehicle is open-topped.

-Once a vehicle is reduced to 0 Hull Points it is wrecked (see page 94). The vehicle is destroyed but left on the battlefield, effectively becoming a piece of difficult and dangerous terrain.

You will notice that the BRB summary does not refer to resolving shots at all like your screen shots. So what is the source of your screen shots?

In fact what are you trying to pass of as rules? The second screen shot of your "rules" states that you lose a Hull Point for "glances", yet it leaves out the fact that you also lose a Hull Point for penetrating hits.

Oh, its just a quick paraphrase of the rules from the back. Thats what the code tag does now, didnt used to look so ... odd.
Back to the topic though, the wound/penetration portion of Resolving the shots is what The Blood Lance fails to trump with its rules. Its got two of the three parts of resolving the Psychic Shooting attack covered, but its this last part that gets ya guys. Hard to hit as it is written covers the whole resolving process with 'resolved at'. The Blood Lance doesnt as its written doesnt need to Declare a Target; nor Roll to Hit as its expressly covered by the Codex. Its when the player needs to step out to use the Roll to Wound/Penetrate is where the all encompassing 'resolved at' prevents the shot due to its requirement to resolve it as a Snap Shot.


Stupid wording as the shot is resolved in three steps and in some cases, this can cause a headache going back and undoing things. However, as Hard to Hit is worded, you end up going back to square one, and then square zero with this situation. :|

Strawman and Begging the question fallacies are not an effective argument x.

You have no grounds to support your claim that resolving a shot continues past determining a hit or miss.

In fact the only quote ( paraphrased or not) that it looks like you flat made up states nothing about resolving the shot, it talks about resolving the EFFECTS of a shot.

Remove Hull Points for glances and follow the penetrating chart to resolve the effects of the shot

You agreed previously that:

First, choose a target: Codex trumps. It has stated with the power that no target will be declared.

Next, Roll to Hit: Again, codex trumps. The FaQ outlines that the power does not roll to hit.

You now claim that shot cannot resolve because you cannot resolve a damage result. Your own quote states nothing of the kind:

Remove Hull Points for glances and follow the penetrating chart to resolve the effects of the shot

The only way for the power to be allowed to resolve the EFFECTS of a hit at all is if it has hit. Once I have hit I have bypassed the H2H rule. Infact i now MUST resolve the effects of my hit on the vehicle via these rules:

- Against vehicle units: instead of using the chart, add the number rolled on the dice to the weapon's Strength.
If the total equals the Armor Value of the appropriate facing (see page 73), a glancing hit has been scored.

If the total beats the Armor Value of the appropriate facing, a penetrating hit has been scored.

- If the vehicle is obscured (see page 75) or is granted a saving throw from another source, it can attempt a saving throw against each glancing and penetrating hit.
- Reduce the vehicles Hull Points by 1 for each unsaved glancing or penetrating hit.
- Finally roll on the table below for each unsaved penetrating hit.
Add 1 to each roll caused by a weapon with an AP value of 2.

Add 2 to each roll caused by a weapon with an AP value of 1 (see page 74)

Add a further 1 to every roll if the target vehicle is open-topped.


-Once a vehicle is reduced to 0 Hull Points it is wrecked (see page 94). The vehicle is destroyed but left on the battlefield, effectively becoming a piece of difficult and dangerous terrain.