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Xzerios wrote:
Oh, its just a quick paraphrase of the rules from the back. Thats what the code tag does now, didnt used to look so ... odd.
Back to the topic though, the wound/penetration portion of Resolving the shots is what The Blood Lance fails to trump with its rules. Its got two of the three parts of resolving the Psychic Shooting attack covered, but its this last part that gets ya guys. Hard to hit as it is written covers the whole resolving process with 'resolved at'. The Blood Lance doesnt as its written doesnt need to Declare a Target; nor Roll to Hit as its expressly covered by the Codex. Its when the player needs to step out to use the Roll to Wound/Penetrate is where the all encompassing 'resolved at' prevents the shot due to its requirement to resolve it as a Snap Shot.


Stupid wording as the shot is resolved in three steps and in some cases, this can cause a headache going back and undoing things. However, as Hard to Hit is worded, you end up going back to square one, and then square zero with this situation. :|

So it was YOU that added all the mentions of "shot resolution", "shot resolved", and "the shot is now resolved" even though what I posted up as the actual summary from the back of the book does not mention any of those terms?

edited by Morathi's Darkest Sin. You tried to present a paraphrasing of a defined summary for shooting by including the vernacular necessary to try and make your argument appear valid.

Just for the record, the vernacular used for Armor Penetration and Resolving Damage is HITS. You resolve Armor Penetration of the Blood Lance HIT and your resolve damage from the Blood Lance HIT.

Ill concede at this point Tyr on the notion of decoupling the process' for resolving the shot. Permission never granted to go back in time and change the Roll to Hit result per the Hard to Hit rule.


WIth this on the table though, this would mean that a Necron's Doom Scythe works in the same fashion, but is even more deadly at STR10, AP1 and hits models within units instead of just a single model within a unit following the rules for Allocating Wounds and Remove Casualties.

What do you think of the Doom Scythe beat stick?

edited by Morathi's Darkest Sin

Xzerios wrote:
Ill concede at this point Tyr on the notion of decoupling the process' for resolving the shot. Permission never granted to go back in time and change the Roll to Hit result per the Hard to Hit rule.


WIth this on the table though, this would mean that a Necron's Doom Scythe works in the same fashion, but is even more deadly at STR10, AP1 and hits models within units instead of just a single model within a unit following the rules for Allocating Wounds and Remove Casualties.

What do you think of the Doom Scythe beat stick?

edited by Morathi's Darkest Sin.

A Flyer that already has Skyfire getting to fire its main weapon at other Flyers does not break the game.

Then next time you should probably not lie in your argument and the try and cover yourself by saying that you were just paraphrasing.

Lets try to keep it friendly folks, a strong debate is good, resulting to insults isn't. Cheers.

Blood Lance Line is a template, so can't hit flyers.

 Stormtrooper520 wrote:
Blood Lance Line is a template, so can't hit flyers.

The BRB defines what a template is (the tear shaped flamer-style one), and it ain't a line.

Naw, right now, the 1mm line is in a gray area with the rules. :|

I see the core of this issue as being that Hard to Hit forces non-Skyfire shots to be resolved as Snap Shots. (Conversely, a Skyfire shot would not have to be resolved as a Snap Shot.)

How do you resolve a Snap Shot?
The shooter's BS is reduced to 1 for its shots' "To Hit" rolls.

How do you resolve a non-Snap Shot shot?
The shooter uses its full BS for its shots' "To Hit" rolls.

Once "To Hit" rolls have been rolled, Snap Shot has been resolved. (And thusly, Hard to Hard, forcing non-Skyfire shots to be resolved as Snap Shots, has also been resolved.)

-----------------
Right out of the FAQ:
"Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No."
-----------------

From this point, all (legal) units through which the path of the Blood Lance traveled, suffer a Wound. The Wound is now in the Wound Pool. Resolution of the Wound does not interact with Hard to Hit or Snap Shots.

VoidDragon wrote:
I see the core of this issue as being that Hard to Hit forces non-Skyfire shots to be resolved as Snap Shots. (Conversely, a Skyfire shot would not have to be resolved as a Snap Shot.)

How do you resolve a Snap Shot?
The shooter's BS is reduced to 1 for its shots' "To Hit" rolls.

How do you resolve a non-Snap Shot shot?
The shooter uses its full BS for its shots' "To Hit" rolls.

Once "To Hit" rolls have been rolled, Snap Shot has been resolved. (And thusly, Hard to Hard, forcing non-Skyfire shots to be resolved as Snap Shots, has also been resolved.)

-----------------
Right out of the FAQ:
"Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No."
-----------------

From this point, all (legal) units through which the path of the Blood Lance traveled, suffer a Wound. The Wound is now in the Wound Pool. Resolution of the Wound does not interact with Hard to Hit or Snap Shots.

Blood Lance never triggers Snap Shots because it is not targeted at a Zooming Flyer. If Blood Lance specifically targeted a Zooming Flyer, it would have to be resolved as a Snap Shot. Any shooting attack that does not use a BS, cannot be Snap Shot. That is why Blood Lance would not work against a Zooming Flyer if it was a targeted shooting attack.

However the Hard to hit rule does not use the word target nor shot at. Solely relies on resolving shots at. Thats triggered when the blood lance pass's through it, and then snap shot is triggered. Easy right.

Do any of you honestly think you're gaining anything by continuing to post in this thread? It needs to be locked since you're all just trolling at this point.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

VoidDragon wrote:
I see the core of this issue as being that Hard to Hit forces non-Skyfire shots to be resolved as Snap Shots. (Conversely, a Skyfire shot would not have to be resolved as a Snap Shot.)

How do you resolve a Snap Shot?
The shooter's BS is reduced to 1 for its shots' "To Hit" rolls.

How do you resolve a non-Snap Shot shot?
The shooter uses its full BS for its shots' "To Hit" rolls.

Once "To Hit" rolls have been rolled, Snap Shot has been resolved. (And thusly, Hard to Hard, forcing non-Skyfire shots to be resolved as Snap Shots, has also been resolved.)

-----------------
Right out of the FAQ:
"Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No."
-----------------

From this point, all (legal) units through which the path of the Blood Lance traveled, suffer a Wound. The Wound is now in the Wound Pool. Resolution of the Wound does not interact with Hard to Hit or Snap Shots.

Blood Lance never triggers Snap Shots because it is not targeted at a Zooming Flyer. If Blood Lance specifically targeted a Zooming Flyer, it would have to be resolved as a Snap Shot. Any shooting attack that does not use a BS, cannot be Snap Shot. That is why Blood Lance would not work against a Zooming Flyer if it was a targeted shooting attack.

I'm right with you Tyr.
I don't know why anyone is trying to force Snap Shot resolution when Snap Shot (affecting the BS of a To Hit roll), when its already been FAQ'd that Blood Lance doesn't need to roll To Hit.

Lungpickle wrote:
However the Hard to hit rule does not use the word target nor shot at. Solely relies on resolving shots at. Thats triggered when the blood lance pass's through it, and then snap shot is triggered. Easy right.

How do you resolve a shot at anything in the game of Warhammer 40k? Check page 12 for the basic sequence and specifically read the step where it says, "Choose Target". Read that step a thousand times and then come back here and explain to me how resolving shots at a Zooming Flyer does not involve targeting the Zooming Flyer.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

VoidDragon wrote:
I see the core of this issue as being that Hard to Hit forces non-Skyfire shots to be resolved as Snap Shots. (Conversely, a Skyfire shot would not have to be resolved as a Snap Shot.)

How do you resolve a Snap Shot?
The shooter's BS is reduced to 1 for its shots' "To Hit" rolls.

How do you resolve a non-Snap Shot shot?
The shooter uses its full BS for its shots' "To Hit" rolls.

Once "To Hit" rolls have been rolled, Snap Shot has been resolved. (And thusly, Hard to Hard, forcing non-Skyfire shots to be resolved as Snap Shots, has also been resolved.)

-----------------
Right out of the FAQ:
"Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No."
-----------------

From this point, all (legal) units through which the path of the Blood Lance traveled, suffer a Wound. The Wound is now in the Wound Pool. Resolution of the Wound does not interact with Hard to Hit or Snap Shots.

Blood Lance never triggers Snap Shots because it is not targeted at a Zooming Flyer. If Blood Lance specifically targeted a Zooming Flyer, it would have to be resolved as a Snap Shot. Any shooting attack that does not use a BS, cannot be Snap Shot. That is why Blood Lance would not work against a Zooming Flyer if it was a targeted shooting attack.

I'm right with you Tyr.
I don't know why anyone is trying to force Snap Shot resolution (affecting the BS of a To Hit roll), when its already been FAQ'd that Blood Lance doesn't need to roll To Hit.

Can anyone tell me how to resolve a Snap Shot (in general)? Maybe we can go from there and dissect that component as a beneficial path of discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Snap Shots
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots." ~BRB p13

What is Ballistic Skill is used for? Rolling To Hit.

The Blood Lance FAQ has already established that it does not need to roll To Hit.

The Blood Lance PSA causes any legal unit in the path of the Blood Lance to suffer a Wound. The Ballistic Skill (due to being forced to Snap Shot or not) is not a consideration in forcing the sufferage of that Wound.

This is RAW.

-----------

But I'd like to go one step farther and look at RAI for Hard To Hit. Hard "To Hit". How hard is it "To Hit" something that has the rule Hard To Hit? It should be harder than normal. This would seem to be why Hard To Hit forces shots (To Hit) to be resolved (To Hit) as if they were Snap Shots.

The Blood Lance FAQ has already established that it does not need to roll To Hit.

The "Hit" has been established by Blood Lance. I would argue that the intention here, is that Blood Lance effectively bypasses Hard To Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

As much as you would like to claim the shot was not targeted at the flyer, or somehow the flyer was hit, but the shot wasn't fire AT the flyer, all shots that hit a flyer, were shot AT the flyer.

I put a gun over my shoulder and fire blind, if I hit a cat, I still fired the gun AT the cat.

Just because you didn't "choose a target" or other special term your psyker is still firing AT the flyer. This is what you cannot get around no matter how you try.

This isn't Cathammer 40k.

If it was however,

As you did not declare the cat as the target of your over the shoulder blind firing attack, you were not shooting at the cat even if you did indeed hit the cat.

Cathammer 40k is not real life yp.

Warhammer 40k rules are written as if real projectiles are shooting around the board, models are dying, craters are formed from explosions and you choose this part of the rules to claim that the ability that hits the flyer wasn't shot AT the flyer.

That and I'm still laughing about "Cathammer 40k".

The Blood Lance was still shot AT the flyer.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

As much as you would like to claim the shot was not targeted at the flyer, or somehow the flyer was hit, but the shot wasn't fire AT the flyer, all shots that hit a flyer, were shot AT the flyer.

I put a gun over my shoulder and fire blind, if I hit a cat, I still fired the gun AT the cat.

Just because you didn't "choose a target" or other special term your psyker is still firing AT the flyer. This is what you cannot get around no matter how you try.

This isn't Cathammer 40k.

If it was however,

As you did not declare the cat as the target of your over the shoulder blind firing attack, you were not shooting at the cat even if you did indeed hit the cat.

Cathammer 40k is not real life yp.

Warhammer 40k rules are written as if real projectiles are shooting around the board, models are dying, craters are formed from explosions and you choose this part of the rules to claim that the ability that hits the flyer wasn't shot AT the flyer.

That and I'm still laughing about "Cathammer 40k".

The Blood Lance was still shot AT the flyer.

I mentioned this prior.

As a players we know that when placing the 4d6 line that the intention is to hit models with that psychic shooting attack. That is real world mechanics and real world common sense.

However, the rules of Warhammer 40k are written to represent the pseudo-reality battlefield of the future where the librarian in this case is casting a psychic bolt of energy in the general direction of the enemy lines without specifically targeting a specific unit. He doesn't know that on the other side of that hill there is a Zooming Flyer, a Rhino, and an IC all perfectly lined up. The psychic bolt hits any enemy unit it passes through/over yet is controlled enough by the librarian to not hit friendly troops, both in the open and engaged in close combat.

You need to suspend belief and common sense most of the times when it comes to resolving rules in Warhammer 40k because of the fact that you are trying to create an battlefield not based in reality.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
As a players we know that when placing the 4d6 line that the intention is to hit models with that psychic shooting attack. That is real world mechanics and real world common sense.

However, the rules of Warhammer 40k are written to represent the pseudo-reality battlefield of the future where the librarian in this case is casting a psychic bolt of energy in the general direction of the enemy lines without specifically targeting a specific unit. The psychic bolt hits any enemy unit it passes through/over yet is controlled enough by the librarian to not hit friendly troops, both in the open and engaged in close combat.

You need to suspend belief and common sense most of the times when it comes to resolving rules in Warhammer 40k because of the fact that you are trying to create an battlefield not based in reality.

Great point. And to represent this "cinematic" action taking place in game terms, the rules have been FAQ'd that the Blood Lance does not need to roll To Hit.

-----------------
"Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No."
-----------------

If there is no roll To Hit, then Hard To Hit has no effect.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

*snip long post*
The Blood Lance was still shot AT the flyer.

I mentioned this prior.

As a players we know that when placing the 4d6 line that the intention is to hit models with that psychic shooting attack. That is real world mechanics and real world common sense.

However, the rules of Warhammer 40k are written to represent the pseudo-reality battlefield of the future where the librarian in this case is casting a psychic bolt of energy in the general direction of the enemy lines without specifically targeting a specific unit. He doesn't know that on the other side of that hill there is a Zooming Flyer, a Rhino, and an IC all perfectly lined up. The psychic bolt hits any enemy unit it passes through/over yet is controlled enough by the librarian to not hit friendly troops, both in the open and engaged in close combat.

You need to suspend belief and common sense most of the times when it comes to resolving rules in Warhammer 40k because of the fact that you are trying to create an battlefield not based in reality.

You can't hold one section of the rules to a higher standard than the rest. At times they rules may say a model "dies". It makes RAW discussion more difficult. Holding this specific rule to it's most literal game mechanic interpretation is holding this rule to a different standard than the rest of the ruleset - simply to allow Blood Angels to do something no other faction can do. It's not even something explicitly stated to read your way, it's something you are claiming is implied.

"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer" can be interpreted two ways.
1. The strictest game sense - excludes shots not targeting the flyer of which Blood Lance is currently the only one in the game that does this.
2. The more common understanding that if something is hit, then the shot has been fired "at" it. This is the standard we hold the rest of the book to, which allows us to play a game in which toy solders "die".

RAI - it's far more likely they didn't realize the impact of one out of 9999 powers in the game that their broad language missed. When a TO rules against you and doesn't fully explain why, this may help you understand.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
However the Hard to hit rule does not use the word target nor shot at. Solely relies on resolving shots at. Thats triggered when the blood lance pass's through it, and then snap shot is triggered. Easy right.

How do you resolve a shot at anything in the game of Warhammer 40k? Check page 12 for the basic sequence and specifically read the step where it says, "Choose Target". Read that step a thousand times and then come back here and explain to me how resolving shots at a Zooming Flyer does not involve targeting the Zooming Flyer.

Well since, Blood Lance never targets a unit and never rolls to hit, you can never resolve it against any unit. Which means my units will never suffer wounds/glancing hits/penetrating hits from a Blood Lance.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

*snip long post*
The Blood Lance was still shot AT the flyer.

I mentioned this prior.

As a players we know that when placing the 4d6 line that the intention is to hit models with that psychic shooting attack. That is real world mechanics and real world common sense.

However, the rules of Warhammer 40k are written to represent the pseudo-reality battlefield of the future where the librarian in this case is casting a psychic bolt of energy in the general direction of the enemy lines without specifically targeting a specific unit. He doesn't know that on the other side of that hill there is a Zooming Flyer, a Rhino, and an IC all perfectly lined up. The psychic bolt hits any enemy unit it passes through/over yet is controlled enough by the librarian to not hit friendly troops, both in the open and engaged in close combat.

You need to suspend belief and common sense most of the times when it comes to resolving rules in Warhammer 40k because of the fact that you are trying to create an battlefield not based in reality.

You can't hold one section of the rules to a higher standard than the rest. At times they rules may say a model "dies". It makes RAW discussion more difficult. Holding this specific rule to it's most literal game mechanic interpretation is holding this rule to a different standard than the rest of the ruleset - simply to allow Blood Angels to do something no other faction can do. It's not even something explicitly stated to read your way, it's something you are claiming is implied.

"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer" can be interpreted two ways.
1. The strictest game sense - excludes shots not targeting the flyer of which Blood Lance is currently the only one in the game that does this.
2. The more common understanding that if something is hit, then the shot has been fired "at" it. This is the standard we hold the rest of the book to, which allows us to play a game in which toy solders "die".

RAI - it's far more likely they didn't realize the impact of one out of 9999 powers in the game that their broad language missed. When a TO rules against you and doesn't fully explain why, this may help you understand.

The problem with your assertion is that when a rule tells us that a model "dies" there is not a defined process in place for us to reference on what "dying" means.

In the case of "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer", there is a defined process in place to resolve shooting at a Zooming Flyer which specifically includes choosing that Zooming Flyer as a target. If the rule had said, "Shots against a Zooming Flyer" I would not have a leg to stand on in this argument as it is not referencing a defined process. In that instance, your second point above regarding common understanding would trump the defined process of shooting at a Zooming Flyer. Because while I can say that per the rules that I am not resolving a psychic shooting attack at a Zooming Flyer due to not choosing it as a target to shoot at, I sure as hell could not say that I am not resolving a psychic shooting attack against a Zooming Flyer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
However the Hard to hit rule does not use the word target nor shot at. Solely relies on resolving shots at. Thats triggered when the blood lance pass's through it, and then snap shot is triggered. Easy right.

How do you resolve a shot at anything in the game of Warhammer 40k? Check page 12 for the basic sequence and specifically read the step where it says, "Choose Target". Read that step a thousand times and then come back here and explain to me how resolving shots at a Zooming Flyer does not involve targeting the Zooming Flyer.

Well since, Blood Lance never targets a unit and never rolls to hit, you can never resolve it against any unit. Which means my units will never suffer wounds/glancing hits/penetrating hits from a Blood Lance.

You might need to make another account here and name it Funnyjew with the hilarity of this post.

Hard To Hit says that shots are resolved as Snap Shots.
You cannot Snap Shot anything that does not rely on BS to hit.
You claim since you do not target the Flyer, you do not have to resolve the shot as a Snap Shot.
I claim that since you are not targeting anything you cannot resolve the shot at all, since as you said, in order to resolve the shot, the first thing you do is Pick a target.

Why does everyone want to resolve a shot when a "To Hit" roll never occurs?

VoidDragon wrote:Why does everyone want to resolve a shot when a "To Hit" roll never occurs?

kirsanth wrote:Page 15, main rules:
"When the Wound pool is empty, the shooting attack has been completely resolved."

Until you get to that stage, you are still resolving it.
Illegally, in this case.

Happyjew wrote:
Hard To Hit says that shots are resolved as Snap Shots.
You cannot Snap Shot anything that does not rely on BS to hit.
You claim since you do not target the Flyer, you do not have to resolve the shot as a Snap Shot.
I claim that since you are not targeting anything you cannot resolve the shot at all, since as you said, in order to resolve the shot, the first thing you do is Pick a target.

And like I said, Funnyjew.

I have read your posts regarding JotWW and other PSA that do not follow the rules for shooting in one manner or another, such as not targeting, not rolling to hit, etc, and etc. With that knowledge, I know that you are just trolling at this point.

I claim that since you are not targeting anything you cannot resolve the shot at all, since as you said, in order to resolve the shot, the first thing you do is Pick a target.

This assertion is incorrect. The power does not target anything at any point.

 kirsanth wrote:

VoidDragon wrote:Why does everyone want to resolve a shot when a "To Hit" roll never occurs?

kirsanth wrote:Page 15, main rules:
"When the Wound pool is empty, the shooting attack has been completely resolved."

Until you get to that stage, you are still resolving it.
Illegally, in this case.

So you're saying that "to resolve the shot (as a Snap Shot)" means to resolve the entire shooting attack, not to just resolve the shot or the "To Hit" step of shooting? (And again, Snap Shot only refers to modifying the BS of the shooter for the "To Hit" step of shooting.)

I'm confused with your logic because Hard To Hit does not say to resolve the shooting attack.

My point being: that the shot is just the "To Hit" step (a piece of the whole shooting attack) of the shooting attack (the entire shooting attack being the whole thing). (Why else would "resolve the shot as a Snap Shot" be relevant? Because it modifies the "To Hit" step of the shooting attack.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Debating RAI for Hard To Hit... forcing a "To Hit" roll to be more difficult by forcing the shooter to shoot as a Snap Shot... this makes something harder to hit, thusly Hard To Hit.

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that Blood Lance does not require a roll "To Hit"?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Hard To Hit says that shots are resolved as Snap Shots.
You cannot Snap Shot anything that does not rely on BS to hit.
You claim since you do not target the Flyer, you do not have to resolve the shot as a Snap Shot.
I claim that since you are not targeting anything you cannot resolve the shot at all, since as you said, in order to resolve the shot, the first thing you do is Pick a target.

And like I said, Funnyjew.

I have read your posts regarding JotWW and other PSA that do not follow the rules for shooting in one manner or another, such as not targeting, not rolling to hit, etc, and etc. With that knowledge, I know that you are just trolling at this point.

So I'm still confused how you are resolving an attack against a Zooming Flyer when in order to do so you must Snap Shot something that cannot be fired as a Snap Shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VoidDragon wrote:
Why is everyone ignoring the fact that Blood Lance does not require a roll "To Hit"?

We're not. Since you do not roll to hit with Blood Lance, you can not fire it as a Snap Shot, and thus can not resolve the shot against a Zooming Flyer.

Happyjew wrote:
We're not. Since you do not roll to hit with Blood Lance, you can not fire it as a Snap Shot, and thus can not resolve the shot against a Zooming Flyer.

If the PSA Blood Lance does not roll to hit, how does it trigger the Hard To Hit effect which forces a specific "To Hit" resolution (ie. Snap Shot's modification of BS "To Hit")?

Hard To Hit specifies that shots are resolved as Snap Shots. How do you resolve a shot?

By rolling to hit.

Do you roll to hit with the power in question?