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Happyjew wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Hard To Hit says that shots are resolved as Snap Shots.
You cannot Snap Shot anything that does not rely on BS to hit.
You claim since you do not target the Flyer, you do not have to resolve the shot as a Snap Shot.
I claim that since you are not targeting anything you cannot resolve the shot at all, since as you said, in order to resolve the shot, the first thing you do is Pick a target.

And like I said, Funnyjew.

I have read your posts regarding JotWW and other PSA that do not follow the rules for shooting in one manner or another, such as not targeting, not rolling to hit, etc, and etc. With that knowledge, I know that you are just trolling at this point.

So I'm still confused how you are resolving an attack against a Zooming Flyer when in order to do so you must Snap Shot something that cannot be fired as a Snap Shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VoidDragon wrote:
Why is everyone ignoring the fact that Blood Lance does not require a roll "To Hit"?

We're not. Since you do not roll to hit with Blood Lance, you can not fire it as a Snap Shot, and thus can not resolve the shot against a Zooming Flyer.

You know what? Nevermind, not even worth the trolling.

Let me re-phrase, when is a shot considered to be resolved?

Happyjew wrote:Hard To Hit specifies that shots are resolved as Snap Shots. How do you resolve a shot?

What gives you the ability to trigger Hard To Hit?

I concede that if I were to shoot your flyer with a non-Skyfire weapon that has no BS value, that I would not be able to Snap Shot the weapon at the flyer.

But Hard To Hit never triggers because Blood Lance doesn't roll "To Hit". If my Psyker roll to manifest Blood Lance is successful, and the Blood Lance path passes through the flyer, the only effect is that the flyer suffers the wound. There is nothing that forces these events to go through the shooting phase (forcing us to skip over the entire shooting phase steps of Nominate Unit to Shoot, Declare Target {because the PSA doesn't declare a target}, Roll To Hit {because the PSA doesn't roll to hit}, Allocate Wounds). Help me understand the rule that forces resolution through the shooting phase steps that are unresolveable because of the nature of the Psyker power/effect wording.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Hard To Hit says that shots are resolved as Snap Shots.
You cannot Snap Shot anything that does not rely on BS to hit.
You claim since you do not target the Flyer, you do not have to resolve the shot as a Snap Shot.
I claim that since you are not targeting anything you cannot resolve the shot at all, since as you said, in order to resolve the shot, the first thing you do is Pick a target.

And like I said, Funnyjew.

I have read your posts regarding JotWW and other PSA that do not follow the rules for shooting in one manner or another, such as not targeting, not rolling to hit, etc, and etc. With that knowledge, I know that you are just trolling at this point.

So I'm still confused how you are resolving an attack against a Zooming Flyer when in order to do so you must Snap Shot something that cannot be fired as a Snap Shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VoidDragon wrote:
Why is everyone ignoring the fact that Blood Lance does not require a roll "To Hit"?

We're not. Since you do not roll to hit with Blood Lance, you can not fire it as a Snap Shot, and thus can not resolve the shot against a Zooming Flyer.

You know what? Nevermind, not even worth the trolling.

It's a good point, that in your strict definition of "resolving at the flyer" vs "resolving against the flyer", in the strictest game terms there is no separate definition for resolving hits "against" vs resolving hits "at".

We don't exactly have separate rules for "resolving at" and "resolving against" is a very good counter to your "at/against" argument.

Happyjew wrote:Let me re-phrase, when is a shot considered to be resolved?

I resolve a shot (even a Snap Shot) by rolling "To Hit".

I resolve an entire shooting attack by Nominating a Unit to Shoot, Declaring a Target, Rolling To Hit, Allocating Wounds.

I resolve a Psycic Attack (even a Psycic Shooting Attack) by following the (Codex > BRB) power/effect's entry. (The fact that its a PSA just means that I manifest it in my Shooting phase rather than my Movement phase.)

VoidDragon wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Hard To Hit specifies that shots are resolved as Snap Shots. How do you resolve a shot?

What gives you the ability to trigger Hard To Hit?

I concede that if I were to shoot your flyer with a non-Skyfire weapon that has no BS value, that I would not be able to Snap Shot the weapon at the flyer.

But Hard To Hit never triggers because Blood Lance doesn't roll "To Hit". If my Psyker roll to manifest Blood Lance is successful, and the Blood Lance path passes through the flyer, the only effect is that the flyer suffers the wound. There is nothing that forces these events to go through the shooting phase (forcing us to skip over the entire shooting phase steps of Nominate Unit to Shoot, Declare Target {because the PSA doesn't declare a target}, Roll To Hit {because the PSA doesn't roll to hit}, Allocate Wounds). Help me understand the rule that forces resolution through the shooting phase steps that are unresolveable because of the nature of the Psyker power/effect wording.

Any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot (BRB, page 13). Does Blood Lance use a Ballistic Skill? No. Therefore it cannot be fired as a Snap Shot. Since it cannot be fired as a Snap Shot you cannot resolve it against a Zooming Flyer.

Happyjew wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
However the Hard to hit rule does not use the word target nor shot at. Solely relies on resolving shots at. Thats triggered when the blood lance pass's through it, and then snap shot is triggered. Easy right.

How do you resolve a shot at anything in the game of Warhammer 40k? Check page 12 for the basic sequence and specifically read the step where it says, "Choose Target". Read that step a thousand times and then come back here and explain to me how resolving shots at a Zooming Flyer does not involve targeting the Zooming Flyer.

Well since, Blood Lance never targets a unit and never rolls to hit, you can never resolve it against any unit. Which means my units will never suffer wounds/glancing hits/penetrating hits from a Blood Lance.

The subtlety in your comment went largely missed. If it is insisted that the shot must be resolved "AT" the unit, then we just don't have any rules to go by. We only have rules for resolving shots "AGAINST" flyers.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
However the Hard to hit rule does not use the word target nor shot at. Solely relies on resolving shots at. Thats triggered when the blood lance pass's through it, and then snap shot is triggered. Easy right.

How do you resolve a shot at anything in the game of Warhammer 40k? Check page 12 for the basic sequence and specifically read the step where it says, "Choose Target". Read that step a thousand times and then come back here and explain to me how resolving shots at a Zooming Flyer does not involve targeting the Zooming Flyer.

Well since, Blood Lance never targets a unit and never rolls to hit, you can never resolve it against any unit. Which means my units will never suffer wounds/glancing hits/penetrating hits from a Blood Lance.

The subtlety in your comment went largely missed. If it is insisted that the shot must be resolved "AT" the unit, then we just don't have any rules to go by. We only have rules for resolving shots "AGAINST" flyers.

Since the rules that Tyr is using gives no permission to rolling armour penetration, which means you cannot even do that.

Happyjew wrote:Any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot (BRB, page 13). Does Blood Lance use a Ballistic Skill? No. Therefore it cannot be fired as a Snap Shot. Since it cannot be fired as a Snap Shot you cannot resolve it against a Zooming Flyer.

I mean this in all sincerity. I'm interested in the true spirit of debate. I'm not interested in flaming on an argument.

My mind is open.

What triggers the Hard To Hit rule? (Since Blood Lance does not roll To Hit, it is not being shot as a regular shot or as a Snap Shot. Its a psychic effect that causes a wound.) (And again, to me, I'm seeing the resolved at a flyer, as the resolution of the shot {not the resolution of the entire shooting attack}... which does not roll To Hit.)

Hard To Hit: Any shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Since you are resolving a shot at the Blood Lance, you must resolve the shot as a Snap Shot, which since Blood Lance does not use a BS, cannot be fired as such.

Happyjew wrote:
Hard To Hit: Any shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Since you are resolving a shot at the Blood Lance, you must resolve the shot as a Snap Shot, which since Blood Lance does not use a BS, cannot be fired as such.

That's the thing... Blood Lance isn't resolving a shot (To Hit). Blood Lance is guaranteed the hit (FAQ'd that it doesn't roll a "To Hit" roll). Blood Lance doesn't have to resolve any shots. It only has to resolve the Wound it forces the flyer to suffer.


It feels like I'm thinking that it doesn't matter how hard your flyer is to hit. I'm guaranteed the hit. Whereas, it feels like you're thinking that you're entitled to make it harder to hit you, and if you don't get to enforce that harder set of "to hit" rules, that you're immune to being hit.

VoidDragon wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Hard To Hit: Any shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Since you are resolving a shot at the Blood Lance, you must resolve the shot as a Snap Shot, which since Blood Lance does not use a BS, cannot be fired as such.

That's the thing... Blood Lance isn't resolving a shot (To Hit). Blood Lance is guaranteed the hit (FAQ'd that it doesn't roll a "To Hit" roll). Blood Lance doesn't have to resolve any shots. It only has to resolve the Wound it forces the flyer to suffer.


It feels like I'm thinking that it doesn't matter how hard your flyer is to hit. I'm guaranteed the hit. Whereas, it feels like you're thinking that you're entitled to make it harder to hit you, and if you don't get to enforce that harder set of "to hit" rules, that you're immune to being hit.

Let's try something else. Swooping FMC has Hard To Hit. This means (as mentioned) you resolve any shooting attack at the FMC as a Snap Shot. Per page 15, the shooting attack is not resolved until the Wound Pool is emptied, which is after you automatically hit. Since you are unable to fire Blood Lance as a Snap Shot, you cannot resolve the shot at a Swooping FMC.

VoidDragon wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Hard To Hit: Any shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Since you are resolving a shot at the Blood Lance, you must resolve the shot as a Snap Shot, which since Blood Lance does not use a BS, cannot be fired as such.

That's the thing... Blood Lance isn't resolving a shot (To Hit). Blood Lance is guaranteed the hit (FAQ'd that it doesn't roll a "To Hit" roll). Blood Lance doesn't have to resolve any shots. It only has to resolve the Wound it forces the flyer to suffer.


It feels like I'm thinking that it doesn't matter how hard your flyer is to hit. I'm guaranteed the hit. Whereas, it feels like you're thinking that you're entitled to make it harder to hit you, and if you don't get to enforce that harder set of "to hit" rules, that you're immune to being hit.

Whether Blood Lance requires you to roll to hit or not, it's a psychic shooting attack and thus causes "a shot".

You may have hit automatically, but you still are resolving that hit.

There are no rules for "resolving shots at a flyer". There are only rules for "resolving shots against a flyer". If you choose to "resolve shots at a flyer" you may proceed to do everything the rules allow you to do, which is nothing further.

I would have to argee that Blood Lance is a guaranteed hit, this is the same agurnment on Imotekh lightning which states that any unit on the battlefield can be hit on a roll of a 6.....it not a shooting attack either and Njal Stormcaller game 4, and 5 any units within some many inches from Njal are auto hit.

Happyjew wrote:Let's try something else. Swooping FMC has Hard To Hit. This means (as mentioned) you resolve any shooting attack at the FMC as a Snap Shot. Per page 15, the shooting attack is not resolved until the Wound Pool is emptied, which is after you automatically hit. Since you are unable to fire Blood Lance as a Snap Shot, you cannot resolve the shot at a Swooping FMC.

I'm on board. I'm tracking you.

Let me ask you this:
The Hard To Hit rule says to resolve the shot as a Snap Shot. Since Snap Shot describes a mechanism of how a "To Hit" roll is governed, the "resolve the shot" wording, mean to resolve the "To Hit" roll?

I think that you're interpreting the resolve the shot wording, to mean to resolve the entire shooting attack. Is this the case?

If I automatically strike you then the hit is resolved when it occurs, immediately. The result and EFFECTS are resolved independently and have no bearing on the ability outside dictating what occurs to the stricken unit.

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
I would have to argee that Blood Lance is a guaranteed hit, this is the same agurnment on Imotekh lightning which states that any unit on the battlefield can be hit on a roll of a 6.....it not a shooting attack either and Njal Stormcaller game 4, and 5 any units within some many inches from Njal are auto hit.

Sure you can auto-hit.
The problem is these shots can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

"It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot."

So Snap Fire rules say you may not fire at all if it's not using a Balistic Skill.

The example is clear since the Portal of Exile hits automatically and doesn't have a target model or unit either.

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
I would have to argee that Blood Lance is a guaranteed hit, this is the same agurnment on Imotekh lightning which states that any unit on the battlefield can be hit on a roll of a 6.....it not a shooting attack either and Njal Stormcaller game 4, and 5 any units within some many inches from Njal are auto hit.

This is a good point. At some point, id just roll off to see if BL works, if your opponent agrees. untill then, hopefully this gets clarification in a future faq.

Garukadon wrote:

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
I would have to argee that Blood Lance is a guaranteed hit, this is the same agurnment on Imotekh lightning which states that any unit on the battlefield can be hit on a roll of a 6.....it not a shooting attack either and Njal Stormcaller game 4, and 5 any units within some many inches from Njal are auto hit.

This is a good point. At some point, id just roll off to see if BL works, if your opponent agrees. untill then, hopefully this gets clarification in a future faq.

In the example given for Snap Shots the Portal of Exile is even a Necron ability. If you read the PoE rule, there's no target, no roll to hit, and. It causes a strength test or be removed. Portal of Exile can't hit flyers, so neither can Imotekhs lightning, or Blood Lance.

Portal of Exile is also not resolved "AT" each model. If there was any doubt, the example given should clear that up.

as far as I can tell there is no RAW that blood lance auto hits, only RAW that there is no to hit roll.

Not needing to roll to hit is not the same as auto hitting.

Semi related to this issue are plasma guns that auto hit . Even if they do not need to roll to hit they still have to roll a d6 to see if they overheat, even though the overheat is from the to hit roll. In other words plasma that auto hits does not count as rolling a 6 to hit, because if it did then there would be no need to roll to see if the to hit roll is a 1 under the gets hot special rule, which is a result of the to hit roll.

this tells us that weapons that auto hit do not count as rolling a 6 to hit, possibly maybe. As blood lance is not even listed as auto hitting and simply not requiring a to hit roll, it could be possibly inferred that it still does not count as rolling a 6 to hit.

"cinematicly" it is more plausible that blood lance hits the things on the ground and passes under zooming/swooping things as they are high up in the air and a lance shooting from someones hand outward is not infinitely high, for the people arguing cinematics.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Garukadon wrote:

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
I would have to argee that Blood Lance is a guaranteed hit, this is the same agurnment on Imotekh lightning which states that any unit on the battlefield can be hit on a roll of a 6.....it not a shooting attack either and Njal Stormcaller game 4, and 5 any units within some many inches from Njal are auto hit.

This is a good point. At some point, id just roll off to see if BL works, if your opponent agrees. untill then, hopefully this gets clarification in a future faq.

In the example given for Snap Shots the Portal of Exile is even a Necron ability. If you read the PoE rule, there's no target, no roll to hit, and. It causes a strength test or be removed. Portal of Exile can't hit flyers, so neither can Imotekhs lightning, or Blood Lance.

Portal of Exile is also not resolved "AT" each model. If there was any doubt, the example given should clear that up.

Great catch ND! By far the most definitive argument given in this entire thread. Unless there is a FAQ that somehow allows Blood Lance to hit Zooming Flyers, it cannot.

So we are all in agreement then? Blood Lance and Vibro Cannons cannot hit Zooming Flyers/Swooping FMCs?

Happyjew wrote:
So we are all in agreement then? Blood Lance and Vibro Cannons cannot hit Zooming Flyers/Swooping FMCs?

After viewing a lot of the comments, I can see the discussion tipping in favor of the Blood Lance not being able to hit, a little bit more than it can. If my opponent is still really undecided on this though, id still roll off for it. Untill the FAQ, make mine marvel.

Happyjew wrote:
Let me re-phrase, when is a shot considered to be resolved?

A shot is resolved when it has completed the 5 steps of the shooting process.

1. Nominate a unit to shoot. (Librarian)
2. Choose a Target. (The Blood Lance rule steps in here and overrides. The target is a point on the board 4d6" away.)
3. Roll to hit. ( Here is the problem everyone is having. The Blood Lance skips this step.)
4. Roll to Wound ( In our case, Pen)
5. Allocate wounds and remove casualties.


The core of the argument is that the BL cannot skip 3, so therefore must follow the HTH, Snap shot rules and not be resolved. However "everything in the path suffers a S8 AP1 hit" clearly shows that this step is skipped. There is no roll to hit, therefore the entirety of the HTH/Snapshot argument is invalid.

"It cannot be resolved" argument is untrue. The codices often allow for different rules when doing the core things in the BRB. In this case, the Blood Lance has a set of rules it follows that do not follow along with the BRB. You declare a point. Everything in the path takes a hit. Read the rule. It is simply stated and easy to understand. You can argue what "path" might mean. Much like the "under the line" terminology for the Death Ray. But you cannot argue that the BL cannot be resolved because it doesn't follow the exact sequence in the BRB, when it is a Codex power.

IF Blood Lance was in Psychic Powers section in the back of the book, then this argument might have ground because the BRB would have to follow the BRB basic rules. All the HTH/Snapshot argument is people applying how they "think" the rule should and overall I tend to agree (HIWPI)

This will need a FAQ, but until then, you simply do what the power says. Pick a point 4d6 away. Everything in the path takes a S8 hit.

The only nagging feeling I get about the wording of the POE rule is that while it is a shooting attack, it doesn't "HIT" anything, it just forces a characteristic test based upon an area effect. It truly does not use any mechanic of the BS as it never "HITS".

However as there is no RAW support at all that a shooting attack that actually does "HIT", either automatically or outright staes it in their individual rules, is still technically using BS despite not rolling, Blood Lance will still not work against Zooming Flyers.

I would venture into the possibility that the Vibro-Cannon might still work, but would have to really get into the rules for it if you indeed roll to hit prior to placing the line.

Vibro Cannon is Artillery. Artillery cannot Snap Shot.

God damn, now I feel like a jack @#$ not catching the Portal of Exile bit... hell, I even quoted the whole rule with that bit. -_-

Excuse me if im mistaken here but do vehicles not ignore characteristic tests outright?

Yes, but that does not have anything to do with the situation. Portal of Exile is a Shooting Attack that automatically hits all units in range. The BRB specifically states the the Portal of Exile cannot be fired as a Snap Shot due to the non-use of a BS. For that reason Blood Lance cannot be fired as a Snap Shot and thus cannot be resolved against a Hard to Hit model.

Can you quote the relevant passage?