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I mean to me it makes sense. These guys are much more battle hardened then your average guardsmen. But, it wouldn't make them OP because their other stats still aren't that good. IE Strength: 3, Toughness: 3, Wounds: 1, initiative: 3, Attacks: 1

The way I look at it is this: Their battle-hardedness is almost exclusively with guns - the way I always see IG infantry tactics is: Shoot at the enemy until they get close. Enemy kills IG troops. IG has reserves. Reserves continue shooting at enemy until enemy gets close. Enemy kills IG troops. IG has more reserves. Repeat until enemy stops getting close.

The veterans are those whose shooting stops the enemy. Therefore, BS 4, but not WS 4.

St. Jebus wrote:
The way I look at it is this: Their battle-hardedness is almost exclusively with guns - the way I always see IG infantry tactics is: Shoot at the enemy until they get close. Enemy kills IG troops. IG has reserves. Reserves continue shooting at enemy until enemy gets close. Enemy kills IG troops. IG has more reserves. Repeat until enemy stops getting close.

The veterans are those whose shooting stops the enemy. Therefore, BS 4, but not WS 4.

I see you point, but in order for an Guardsmen to be a vet. They must have survived a lot of crap, and thus IMHO it makes sense. But then why would Commissars get BS 4, yet Stormtroopers wouldn't?

Commissars have WS 4 because they get allot of practice summarily executing their own troops.


I don't think that Vets should get WS4. If you get into hand to hand with any regularity as a Guadsman, you probably aren't going to live long enough to be a veteran.

What are the BS and WS of SM Scouts? I doubt even veteran guardsmen or storm troopers should be more skilled then scouts.

 Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Commissars have WS 4 because they get allot of practice summarily executing their own troops.


I don't think that Vets should get WS4. If you get into hand to hand with any regularity as a Guadsman, you probably aren't going to live long enough to be a veteran.

What are the BS and WS of SM Scouts? I doubt even veteran guardsmen or storm troopers should be more skilled then scouts.

Depends on the scout, regular scouts WS: 3 BS: 3, Sergeant Scouts WS: 4 BS: 4

I would give it to Storm Troopers, or maybe only the Storm Trooper Sergeant.

The thing you have to remember as well is that variety in stat lines is important to the game.

I'd like to see Storm Troopers (but not regular IG vets) with WS4. They're all equipped with pistols and melee weapons, after all, and having them be that extra cut above the average IG grunt seems like it'd be cool and logical. Plus it would be a well-needed buff to what is, at present, an extremely underwhelming unit.

I think I'd be fine with Storm Troopers getting WS4, since you pay 16pts apiece for them.

WS4 and BS4 on a Vet seems like too much though. If IG vets are that good, Space Marine chapters would recruit directly from the IG instead of from local juves.

I think they should. That's what veterans are. Not I physical but in arms and weapon tactics are a click better than normal IG.
Though if they had Ws and bs 4 they would have profile close to C.Commanders. But. Even with Ws 4 I don't think than any IG player would charge at all. Haha
Rejoice

Its not a linear progression though. Each step up the WS ladder gives you greatter offensive power and only a marginal defensive bonus.

As well if guard vets are WS 4, then why are Tactical Marines not WS 5 etc.

a DE wyche is only WS4. Hundreds of years of fighting in a knife fighting arena non stop gets you WS4.
IG vets have seen a few campains, but might not have ever seen HTH combat. WS3 is right.

I say no.

Like how you couldn't give sharpshooters to plasma guns back in the day, veterans just wouldn't survive long enough in close combats to develop any real mastery.

As a fluff note, Guardsmen - even vets and troopers - on average don't have enough time to get WS4; WS4 is assumed to be the result of constant, dedicated, and advanced battle practice or training, which Marines and Orks do in their downtime. Certain officers get WS4 because they're superb duelists with powerswords and sabres - a large portion of nobility and officials duel not only for sport or battle, but for their lives when they've offended one another.

IMO Storm Troopers yes, vets, no. My fluff and TT reasons for each are

Vets Fluff: How many games would you say your guardsmen survive in a row when they get into melee combat? Odds are very few. Now how many games can a guardsman survive in a row where all he does is shoot? Odds are a lot more on average. The point it guardsmen who get into melee will die too often to become veterans. That isn't to say vets shouldn't get a doctrine where they swap +1 BS for +1 WS, for the few who manage to survive that long.

Vets Crunch: Vets are already an excellent deal and don't need any boost. For 70 points you get ten guys with BS 4 who can get +1 to their cover save, a 4+ armour save, 3 special weapons (as well as a fancy pistol or power weapon), and a heavy weapon. Hell for what I am estimating is about 145 points you can get 5 AP 2 weapons (Lascannon, Plasma Pistol, and 3 Plasma Guns).

Storm Troopers Fluff: These guys aren't vets, the whole reason vets get high stats is because they have experience. These guys may have experience, but more importantly they are simply well trained. These guys can be given training to boost them to WS 4 (it is certainly possible since Commissars, and at least some SoB get WS 4 and come from the same schools), while vets have to gain that +1 WS through experience. Think of comparing a storm trooper to a vet like comparing a Navy Seal to a Taliban fighter who fought the Soviets in the 80s. The former is better equipped and has more formal equipment, while the latter (presumably) has more experience. The former can simply be taught to use a knife, the latter would have had to actually needed the knife to gain experience with it.

Storm Troopers Crunch: A 4+ save, AP3 laspistols, relatively short range guns, and a fairly expensive unit. It isn't that huge a boost since they are still generally better off just shooting the enemy with their HSLG instead of shooting with their pistols and charging, but giving them WS 4 will give them a slight boost in close combat against GEQs and MEQs. Granted they will still lose to the latter most of the time, but at least then they can cause some damage.

You could make them WS10 and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.

Storm Troopers should get it because in fluff they are epitome of a human being. They should get all Statlines of a Space Marine except Toughness and Strength.

 Testify wrote:
You could make them WS10 and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.

They would be hitting MEQs on a 3+, much better odds of killing them than if you hit them on a 5+. Although now I am imagining some superhuman duelist who dies to a generic CSM because he is too slow and weak.

Buttons wrote:

 Testify wrote:
You could make them WS10 and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.

They would be hitting MEQs on a 3+, much better odds of killing them than if you hit them on a 5+. Although now I am imagining some superhuman duelist who dies to a generic CSM because he is too slow and weak.

4+*

And space marines aren't that great of duelists. They have an arts martial that they practice to perfection, but outside of that they mostly rely on teamwork, surprise, years of experience, and massively improved instincts and reactions.

Even with WS 4 they will still suck in close combat. They would simply suck a little less than they do now. You know that WS is mostly irrelevant right?

I misread the line and voted yes...I mean't no...oops...

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
Even with WS 4 they will still suck in close combat. They would simply suck a little less than they do now. You know that WS is mostly irrelevant right?

WS is just under 1/3 of the CC equation. I'd hardly call that "irrelevant."

 chrisrawr wrote:

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
Even with WS 4 they will still suck in close combat. They would simply suck a little less than they do now. You know that WS is mostly irrelevant right?

WS is just under 1/3 of the CC equation. I'd hardly call that "irrelevant."

It really is with the new WS chart. Even if Guard gets their WS boosted to WS 5 they are still hitting MEQs on the same roll as WS 3 (4+ to hit) the only change is that they are a fraction more survivable (too lazy to do the maths, but probably only ups their survival percentage by like 5%).

WS5 hits WS4 on 3+. The chart isn't new at all.. it's still:
- Greater than, I hit you on 3's
- Equal to down to half, I hit you on 4's
- Half -1 or lower, I hit you on 5's

I think the Storm Troopers should have WS4. It is silly that random Platoon Commanders can get it, Comissars can get it, heck, even the Primaris Psyker can get it, but the Glory Boys cant.

But Veterans are good at WS3. Maybe a "Hardened Fighters" doctrine could do the trick, but the base stat is good.

I say na. Most of the time normal IG vets spend a lot of effort to avoid fighting melee where they lose all of the advantage of firepower. Would you really say a US marine is weapon skill 4. BS 4 sure they spend a lot of time working on marksmanship so they are rather good shots. But really all of their melee training is meant for last resort and taking people out from behind. Commissars get WS 4 because they train extensively in fencing as they are learning to be commissars normal IG even Vets do not.


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 Thatguyoverthere wrote:
I think I'd be fine with Storm Troopers getting WS4, since you pay 16pts apiece for them.

WS4 and BS4 on a Vet seems like too much though. If IG vets are that good, Space Marine chapters would recruit directly from the IG instead of from local juves.

And the marines need to recruit from local Juves. To much past the mid teens and they cant take the implants.

 Stormtrooper520 wrote:
Storm Troopers should get it because in fluff they are epitome of a human being. They should get all Statlines of a Space Marine except Toughness and Strength.

. I agree with this entirely , a good example , Karskin Stormtroopers get bionic augermentation when the complete training , not the same as space marines but better the. Guardsmen , so I at least think they should be WS 4 or I4

Conscripts BS2 WS2
Gaurdsmen BS3 WS3
Veterans BS4 WS3
Stormtroopers BS4 WS4

Seems like a good progression from meat shield to skilled trooper.

Give them WS4, remove their special rules, give them stubborn and bump their price to 18 ppm.

Ooooooooooooh wait a minute here broski...

For IG Vets, I so no. I don't picture IG Vets as better fighters. 1 million Guardsmen may have been deployed for a campaign, and now at the end of it there's like 50 guardsmen left. They may react better under fire from experience, but the only reason they're around is simply odds and statistics. The Imperium's tactic is "choke the enemy with your dead".

I could see the argument for Stormtroopers having BS 4. They're suppose to have the top of the line equipment.

All their rifles are also scoped, not that it affects sniper rifles and such, but still, for example the Krieg Grenadier Hellgun has a 4x scope that supposedly helps in more than 1 way.