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 Bobthehero wrote:
All their rifles are also scoped, not that it affects sniper rifles and such, but still, for example the Krieg Grenadier Hellgun has a 4x scope that supposedly helps in more than 1 way.

My vets have scopes on their knives. Can I be WS4 now?

-Matt

 Bobthehero wrote:
Give them WS4, remove their special rules, give them stubborn and bump their price to 18 ppm.

Ooooooooooooh wait a minute here broski...

Also, limit their transport options to an open topped vehicle with a transport capacity of 5, a cost of 55 points (gotta take extra armour with grenadiers), and its only armament being a heavy stubber. DKoK Grenadiers are a hilarious rip off as far as points go. Now engineers, that is a bitchin' unit.

Engineers with hellbores are op unstoppable build.

No matters, I am still taking them, they have bitchin' models and they're the first unit I fully painted.

"Alright you didn't table me by my turn 2, wanna concede, or are we good to just whipe all your units off the board?"

tongueincheeketc.

On the subject of stormies/Grenadiers

Hotshot, str 4 y/n?

S4, AP4 maybe.

Also, DKoK get WS4 Guardsmen standard, so I don't see too big a leap for Stormtroopers to get it. It would help their survivability in combat, if only by a bit.

 Bobthehero wrote:
On the subject of stormies/Grenadiers

Hotshot, str 4 y/n?

I had a few solutions to the issue.
1. Keep it the same, we get AP 3 guns,that is a huge improvement over the storm troopers of old. If anything they are simply overcosted for what can only really be used for fun or as a suicide unit.
2. Str 4, AP 4
3. Assault 1, Str 5, AP 3
From the fluff on the HSLG is sounds like number 3 is the most fluffy option. A HSLG is pretty much a conventional lasgun, which has been modified so it can dump almost all of the energy of its power pack into a single, or very few shots and not explode. The best way to represent that is like what is almost a light lascannon, except instead of heavy 1, it is assault 1. Number 3 has the same kill ratio against MEQs out of cover at close range, but at long ranges it surpasses the existing HSLG, with double the wounds.

The problem with rapid fire str 4 ap 3 is that it means the IG elite gets better guns than the space marine elites (-6" range>Gets Hot!). Granted marines still have the option for versatility, but should storm troopers really be given weapons that can allow them to kill marines as effectively as the space marine elites.

SM Elite have the same gun as their non elite (unless you meant SM as a whole or termies)

Personally I though hotshot for the stormie & co was a hotshoted hellgun, with the backpack allowing more shots and the stronger internals allowing the gun to withstand said more shots. But YMMV

 Bobthehero wrote:
SM Elite have the same gun as their non elite (unless you meant SM as a whole or termies)

Personally I though hotshot for the stormie & co was a hotshoted hellgun, with the backpack allowing more shots and the stronger internals allowing the gun to withstand said more shots. But YMMV

I meant sternguard, whose anti-MEQ weapon is the vengence bolter rounds, which are AP 3 bolter rounds that get hot.

Buttons wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
On the subject of stormies/Grenadiers

Hotshot, str 4 y/n?

I had a few solutions to the issue.
1. Keep it the same, we get AP 3 guns,that is a huge improvement over the storm troopers of old. If anything they are simply overcosted for what can only really be used for fun or as a suicide unit.
2. Str 4, AP 4
3. Assault 1, Str 5, AP 3
From the fluff on the HSLG is sounds like number 3 is the most fluffy option. A HSLG is pretty much a conventional lasgun, which has been modified so it can dump almost all of the energy of its power pack into a single, or very few shots and not explode. The best way to represent that is like what is almost a light lascannon, except instead of heavy 1, it is assault 1. Number 3 has the same kill ratio against MEQs out of cover at close range, but at long ranges it surpasses the existing HSLG, with double the wounds.

The problem with rapid fire str 4 ap 3 is that it means the IG elite gets better guns than the space marine elites (-6" range>Gets Hot!). Granted marines still have the option for versatility, but should storm troopers really be given weapons that can allow them to kill marines as effectively as the space marine elites.

4. S3 AP3 rapid fire, 24".
Range is too shot and makes them suicide units. Give them a bit more range, and you should be able to squeeze in a 2nd or 3rd burst.

-Matt

Modern infantry training consists of about a day of hand to hand/bayonette training, and a month of marksmanship training. I can't see things changing much in 40,000 years.

If anything regular guardsman should be WS2 and vets WS3.

This is not the real world, this is the 40k world, where close combat is frequently a deciding element of a battle, and army commanders bring swords that they intend to use on enemies. I would think all Guardsmen, especially close-quarters specialists (Stormtroopers) would have more than a day of hand-to-hand training.

Yes. People think it is a big deal, but increased strength, initiative, attacks, and the ability to reroll hits and wounds are all much more important than number of attacks.

Biophysical wrote:
This is not the real world, this is the 40k world, where close combat is frequently a deciding element of a battle, and army commanders bring swords that they intend to use on enemies. I would think all Guardsmen, especially close-quarters specialists (Stormtroopers) would have more than a day of hand-to-hand training.

Beyond this, Storm Troopers are trained in what is like college/prep school for warhammer 40K. They don't just become soldiers, they learn tactics, religion, they learn how to speak high gothic, they are effectively educated so they can be seen as equals by the nobility of the Imperium. Part of that would presumably be how to use a sword in a duel, which while not necessarily pragmatic fighting, could certainly be used as the basis for such.

Anyone trained to duel with chain or powerswords has WS4 by default in my books.

Kevlar wrote:
Modern infantry training consists of about a day of hand to hand/bayonette training, and a month of marksmanship training. I can't see things changing much in 40,000 years.

If anything regular guardsman should be WS2 and vets WS3.

Until you get to your unit, where you practice Hand to Hand combat 1-2 times a week and go to the range once or twice a month.

I think you may have a point with Storm Troopers, because yes I can see how they should be on a par with commissars.

In my view the IG is generally in a bad state, rules, stats and points wise so I'm happy to debate proposed rules in futility when it comes to them. GW has just totally neglected the IG, which IMO are pretty central to the mythology and concept.

I don't think the stats represent vets and STs properly. Right now, vets in carapace should not be as strong as stormies. Storm Troopers are meant to be special forces, and veterans are meant to be experienced line infantry.

In summary, WS4 ? No to vets yes to stormies.

Postscript FYI Fluff says Kasrkin aren't storm troopers. I'd actually give them WS 4 though but also make them line infantry and not STs, so they would be points scoring, have rules/abilities changed to generic veterans etc

Gonna have to say no based on fluff. Yes, they are a cut above the normal guardsman but that is not saying much. The typical Eldar Banshee or DE Wytch have been fighting or training since that human vet was just learning how to crap himself and cry for mommy.

You also need to consider that some of those "vets" have seen only 1-2 battles (they are still scrubs). If those couple noobs aren't bringing the whole group down then Banshee WS would also be higher (as they are a cut above human vets), and so would the Exarch (as they are a cut above the regular aspect warriors) and the Autarch (as they are a cut above the Exarches).

Lastly, don't forget we are stuck with a total of 10 different "leagues". Just because one little-league team is better than another does not mean they can compete with the pros. (WOO! Implied insult to the Imperium ).

Veterans shouldn't get WS4, because of reasons others have stated before: Guardsmen don't train H2H extensively, and woulden't live long enough to actually get that experience in a combat situation.
Stormtroopers should on the other hand get WS4 due to their high points cost in game and extensive training in the fluff. They are meant to get in the thickest of the fighting, and they are specialists in close quaters fighting.

I say vets stay WS 3, I could see Stormtroopers perhaps earning WS 4

Second on the +1 WS to Stormtroopers, but not Veterans.

Then knock a couple of points off the Stormies cost (since now they're competing with SM allies) say to about 13ppm and we're good (although the argument in favor of giving them back the 24 inch range is somewhat valid...less necessary in 6th though).

Jack

Well giving them 24 inches would also be a buff to Grenadiers, so I'll take that any time.

 Jackmojo wrote:
Second on the +1 WS to Stormtroopers, but not Veterans.

Then knock a couple of points off the Stormies cost (since now they're competing with SM allies) say to about 13ppm and we're good (although the argument in favor of giving them back the 24 inch range is somewhat valid...less necessary in 6th though).

Jack

13 might be too little, 14 sounds good however. I mean vets with carapace armour cost 10 PPM, I can't see the special operations, WS 4, and the HSLG being worth 3 points (granted 16 points is certainly too much even with WS4).

Gotta factor in the value of being scoring, which is even worse when you realize they compete with tactical marines.

Personally I'm more inclined to say they're really only worth about 11ish as is, but I get the premium being charged on them when the codex was written (although between the Rapid Fire improvements and the slight reduction in cover saves 6th has been relatively kind to Stormtroopers).


Jack

 Jackmojo wrote:
Gotta factor in the value of being scoring, which is even worse when you realize they compete with tactical marines.

Personally I'm more inclined to say they're really only worth about 11ish as is, but I get the premium being charged on them when the codex was written (although between the Rapid Fire improvements and the slight reduction in cover saves 6th has been relatively kind to Stormtroopers).


Jack

They still can carry two special weapons, and veterans are likely undercosted for what they offer anyway (3 BS 4 special weapons that is scoring, can take numerous upgrades, and can take a plasma or bolt pistol). Honestly I think the big thing about storm troopers, as with many specifically anti MEQ infantry is that people value MEQs so highly. Not that MEQs should be nerfed or anything, but that shooting through power armour isn't a big deal. If the IG wants to specifically kill marines they won't take 180+ points in storm troopers, they will take an AV 14 tank that can wound marines on a 2+ and offers no save, or artillery that wounds them on a 2+ and offers no armour save, or artillery that wounds them on a 2+ and offers no armour or cover save. Same thing with Tau and vespids, a Tau player could potentially use vespids to rape marines, but battlesuits are multi-purpose and more resilient.

Yep, a squad of Stormies need to come in well under the cost of a tank to account for how much less useful hey are.

Scoring stormtroopers would be worth about 13, non scoring 11 (being cheaper the veterans is fine since they lack all the cool choices Vets get)..

Jack

 Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Commissars have WS 4 because they get allot of practice summarily executing their own troops.


I don't think that Vets should get WS4. If you get into hand to hand with any regularity as a Guadsman, you probably aren't going to live long enough to be a veteran.

What are the BS and WS of SM Scouts? I doubt even veteran guardsmen or storm troopers should be more skilled then scouts.

Commisars execute (traditionally) troops with their bolt pistol, so the WS 4 doesn't have really have to do with execution, however that is an interesting idea!

I think that storm troopers should get WS 4, but not veterans, because they have been specially trained, while the veterans have just survived ( hid in cover ) long enough to become
more adept at shooting things. You have to keep in mind, the average guardsman doesn't want to go into close combat-why not just shoot them instead, that way you might (yeah, right!) have
a longer lifetime in this battle/other ones.

So this sound like a half decent new storm trooper rules?
WS: +1 (4 now)
Cost: -5 points (11 points now)
HSLG Range: +6 inches (equal to a lasgun)

I should play a few games like this and see what happens, they might be undercosted, but there is only one way to truly find out.

Buttons wrote:
So this sound like a half decent new storm trooper rules?
WS: +1 (4 now)
Cost: -5 points (11 points now)
HSLG Range: +6 inches (equal to a lasgun)

I should play a few games like this and see what happens, they might be undercosted, but there is only one way to truly find out.

I like the HSLG range increase, but I feel like the WS increase is just a band-aid for them. My stormies rarely die in CC anyway, they're normally shot to bits.