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Dooley wrote:
Ok so if HE is a character who else is a Character and what do you have to support that claim? The Appendix in the back of the book or corresponding Army FAQ's SHOULD determine who is a Character and who is NOT I would think?

This...
THIS...
THIS is so stupid, any non IC special character doesn't have character listed in his profile. The BRB says that named characters are special characters, the codex lists bjorn to as a unique model the same as all of the special characters who are not vehicles.

Also I fixed your spelling.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also I fixed your spelling.

OH BURN!

 liturgies of blood wrote:

THIS is so stupid, any non IC special character doesn't have character listed in his profile. The BRB says that named characters are special characters, the codex lists bjorn to as a unique model the same as all of the special characters who are not vehicles.

Daemon princes are non IC and they have character listed in their profile. I don't think the dread puppy is a character since it isn't listed as one on the appendix, in the case of unit upgrade characters and champions/sergeants there is a paragraph on the character section that states if a model within a unit has a different profile you can safely assume that it is a character. Any 1 model unit that is a character has it stated on the appendix iirc.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Any 1 model unit that is a character has it stated on the appendix iirc.

Named Special Characters are not listed. Find The Swarmlord for example.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

THIS is so stupid, any non IC special character doesn't have character listed in his profile. The BRB says that named characters are special characters, the codex lists bjorn to as a unique model the same as all of the special characters who are not vehicles.

Daemon princes are non IC and they have character listed in their profile. I don't think the dread puppy is a character since it isn't listed as one on the appendix, in the case of unit upgrade characters and champions/sergeants there is a paragraph on the character section that states if a model within a unit has a different profile you can safely assume that it is a character. Any 1 model unit that is a character has it stated on the appendix iirc.

No named characters are listed in there, so are you saying the swarmlord isn't a character, heck by that logic a lot of named guys aren't characters including all of the upgraded unit champs.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

THIS is so stupid, any non IC special character doesn't have character listed in his profile. The BRB says that named characters are special characters, the codex lists bjorn to as a unique model the same as all of the special characters who are not vehicles.

Daemon princes are non IC and they have character listed in their profile. I don't think the dread puppy is a character since it isn't listed as one on the appendix, in the case of unit upgrade characters and champions/sergeants there is a paragraph on the character section that states if a model within a unit has a different profile you can safely assume that it is a character. Any 1 model unit that is a character has it stated on the appendix iirc.

Is mephiston in the appendix, death company tycho? Also since he can be chosen as a HQ he can be a default warlord, warlords can be vehicles since some of the traits mention that and only characters can be warlords.

 HoverBoy wrote:

]
No named characters are listed in there, so are you saying the swarmlord isn't a character, heck by that logic a lot of named guys aren't characters including all of the upgraded unit champs.

Yeah, just realized named ones aren't there however they do have the IC rule on their respective codexes, upgraded unit champs fall under the "they have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry." from pg. 63, same with the named upgraded one after all they are replacing the unit campions. That's the logic that is written on the BRB and it works. The swarmlord and mephiston case yeah i guess i overlooked those two. However at the end of the day they are Hive Tyrant and Librarian which are characters, dreads aren't.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Yeah, just realized named ones aren't there however they do have the IC rule on their respective codexes

The Swarmlord isn't an IC.
Is Deathleaper a character?
Is the Doom of Mal'antai?
Is Mephiston?
Is Old One Eye?

None of those are ICs, and none of those fall back on "Oh, well, the base creature is a character." So according to you, they aren't. We know indisputably that Mephiston is. That means that your interpretation cannot be correct.

If I am agreeing with rigeld2 then you know you are wrong. :p

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

THIS is so stupid, any non IC special character doesn't have character listed in his profile. The BRB says that named characters are special characters, the codex lists bjorn to as a unique model the same as all of the special characters who are not vehicles.

Daemon princes are non IC and they have character listed in their profile. I don't think the dread puppy is a character since it isn't listed as one on the appendix, in the case of unit upgrade characters and champions/sergeants there is a paragraph on the character section that states if a model within a unit has a different profile you can safely assume that it is a character. Any 1 model unit that is a character has it stated on the appendix iirc.

you remember incorrectly

rigeld2 wrote:

The Swarmlord isn't an IC.
Is Deathleaper a character?
Is the Doom of Mal'antai?
Is Mephiston?
Is Old One Eye?

None of those are ICs, and none of those fall back on "Oh, well, the base creature is a character."

I'm pretty sure, Hive Tyrants, Librarians and Carnifexes are listed as characters on the BRB appendix, and again yeah i overlooked all those special characters sorry for not naming each one of them, feel free to post all the names characters that exist here please. Marbo comes to my mind, i'm pretty sure i left some other out please look at all the codexes for them and post them, i'll be here waiting i think there are some on the chaos daemons as well like that khorne dog.

Hive Tyrants and Librarians are characters.. Carnifexes are not.

I think it is safe to assume that if a Carnifex is not a character than Dreadnoughts are also NOT characters. As far as Bjorn is Concerned I am thinking he is not a Character for the sake of PS/LOS etc. Sure he is a Special Character but he is NOT that Special. This also applys to all the other Non "CHARACTER" Characters already mentioned. Yeah thats right I just said Bjorn isnt as special as an Ork Nob or a Scout Sergeant. Write GW and let them know you want an Errata and you want it NOW!

 Lord Yayula wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The Swarmlord isn't an IC.
Is Deathleaper a character?
Is the Doom of Mal'antai?
Is Mephiston?
Is Old One Eye?

None of those are ICs, and none of those fall back on "Oh, well, the base creature is a character."

I'm pretty sure, Hive Tyrants, Librarians and Carnifexes are listed as characters on the BRB appendix, and again yeah i overlooked all those special characters sorry for not naming each one of them, feel free to post all the names characters that exist here please. Marbo comes to my mind, i'm pretty sure i left some other out please look at all the codexes for them and post them, i'll be here waiting i think there are some on the chaos daemons as well like that khorne dog.

Sorry, I forgot Librarians were.
So you're saying Deathleaper, Old One Eye, Doom of Mal, Marbo, etc. are not characters, despite being special characters?

Dooley wrote:
I think it is safe to assume that if a Carnifex is not a character than Dreadnoughts are also NOT characters. As far as Bjorn is Concerned I am thinking he is not a Character for the sake of PS/LOS etc. Sure he is a Special Character but he is NOT that Special. This also applys to all the other Non "CHARACTER" Characters already mentioned. Yeah thats right I just said Bjorn isnt as special as an Ork Nob or a Scout Sergeant. Write GW and let them know you want an Errata and you want it NOW!

This cognitive dissonance breaks down when you look at the rules for some of these "non-character characters" lukas's pelt only works in challenges how does he get into a challenge otherwise.

LOS is never an issue with Bjorn since he can't take wounds. What rules can you give to back up the stance that special characters cannot be characters? If you are a character you have all the abilities that a character gets, you may not be able to avail of them like Bjorn, mephiston and DC Tycho with LOS but so what.

The Apendix that lists who is a "CHARACTER" type and the the fact that Bjorn et all do not have CHARACTER in their unit entries or ERRATAS.

Dooley wrote:
The Apendix that lists who is a "CHARACTER" type and the the fact that Bjorn et all do not have CHARACTER in their unit entries or ERRATAS.

So Mephiston isn't a character?

No special characters are listed in that. Tell me where mephiston isn't a character?

Page 110 "special characters stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name....."

"Each special character is unique....."

Bjorn is unique as per his codex. That sentence defines special characters as a characters, as a subgroup of them.

rigeld2 wrote:
Sorry, I forgot Librarians were.
So you're saying Deathleaper, Old One Eye, Doom of Mal, Marbo, etc. are not characters, despite being special characters?

Deathleaper & the Doom, at least, aren't defined as special characters anywhere; they're just Unique. (Until the 6e rulebook defined a Hive Tyrant as a Character, neither a Tyrant nor the Swarmlord were, either. It's reasonably apparent that they defined the Tyrant and the Tervigon as Characters, because either could be your Warlord, and a non-character warlord breaks certain of the traits.)

O.k i'm kinda new to actually playing and have 6th ed as a gift for my birthday in a few days, so I'm trying to read up on as many points of difference as i can before i read it, but this is getting really confusing! especially this bit

'Bjorn is unique as per his codex. That sentence defines special characters as a characters, as a subgroup of them.'

i'm still no clearer on who is counted as a Character? or are we only talking about those described as 'special' characters? or will the rule be open to individual interpretation until it gets cleared up?

sorry if i sound a bit flumoxed :-)

 Janthkin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Sorry, I forgot Librarians were.
So you're saying Deathleaper, Old One Eye, Doom of Mal, Marbo, etc. are not characters, despite being special characters?

Deathleaper & the Doom, at least, aren't defined as special characters anywhere; they're just Unique. (Until the 6e rulebook defined a Hive Tyrant as a Character, neither a Tyrant nor the Swarmlord were, either. It's reasonably apparent that they defined the Tyrant and the Tervigon as Characters, because either could be your Warlord, and a non-character warlord breaks certain of the traits.)

They're just as much a character as Mephiston is - he's a named, unique model, not asserted to be a character anywhere except where he's mentioned as part of a group on page 63.
There's no reason to call him a character that doesn't also fit Doom or Deathleaper.

Everyone should read the section on characters again in the rule book. The definition is open ended and inclusive. Any named model is most DEFINITELY a character by the rule books standards. Sergeants and upgrade models are also characters.

Paladins and Nobs SHOULD follow the rules for Wolf Guard (only "characters" when split off from the unit [to be pack hunters]). In other words these units of "champion" or "veteran" equivalents should only count as characters when they are running solo or leading other units of lesser stature.

Chaos terminators are a little more difficult as you can choose to upgrade any number of unit members to champ status.

 Deuce11 wrote:
Everyone should read the section on characters again in the rule book. The definition is open ended and inclusive. Any named model is most DEFINITELY a character by the rule books standards. Sergeants and upgrade models are also characters.

Paladins and Nobs SHOULD follow the rules for Wolf Guard (only "characters" when split off from the unit [to be pack hunters]). In other words these units of "champion" or "veteran" equivalents should only count as characters when they are running solo or leading other units of lesser stature.

Chaos terminators are a little more difficult as you can choose to upgrade any number of unit members to champ status.

WG are characters when in a squad as well as when split off afaik. That's how I read that bit anyway.

 Janthkin wrote:
Deathleaper & the Doom, at least, aren't defined as special characters anywhere; they're just Unique. (Until the 6e rulebook defined a Hive Tyrant as a Character, neither a Tyrant nor the Swarmlord were, either. It's reasonably apparent that they defined the Tyrant and the Tervigon as Characters, because either could be your Warlord, and a non-character warlord breaks certain of the traits.)

The FAQ defines Leaper and Doom as Special characters.

 nerdfest09 wrote:
O.k i'm kinda new to actually playing and have 6th ed as a gift for my birthday in a few days, so I'm trying to read up on as many points of difference as i can before i read it, but this is getting really confusing! especially this bit

'Bjorn is unique as per his codex. That sentence defines special characters as a characters, as a subgroup of them.'

i'm still no clearer on who is counted as a Character? or are we only talking about those described as 'special' characters? or will the rule be open to individual interpretation until it gets cleared up?

sorry if i sound a bit flumoxed :-)

Any model that has the character trait from the back of the rulebook, any model with a name rather than a title or class and any model given the trait by way of faq is a character.

Cool, thanks for the clarification :-) so, there are quite a few who will be able to be deemed characters throughout the differing codexii, I'll have to go back through my BA codex and see who fits!

Fragile wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:
Deathleaper & the Doom, at least, aren't defined as special characters anywhere; they're just Unique. (Until the 6e rulebook defined a Hive Tyrant as a Character, neither a Tyrant nor the Swarmlord were, either. It's reasonably apparent that they defined the Tyrant and the Tervigon as Characters, because either could be your Warlord, and a non-character warlord breaks certain of the traits.)

The FAQ defines Leaper and Doom as Special characters.

... You and I must be looking at different FAQs.
The BA one doesn't spell out that Mephiston is a SC either.

What in the case of SM SGT's? They are not special characters and yet when they assault another unit they can declare a challenge. With this in mind how can we limit other units? Look at a Furiouso Librarian (I don't know to spell their special dreadnought so please bare with me) he is a Librarian but he is also a dreadnought so in this case wouldn't he be able to declare a challenge?

ShadowFingers wrote:
They are not special characters and yet when they assault another unit they can declare a challenge.

Sergeants are characters - that's spelled out pretty explicitly.

rigeld2 wrote:

ShadowFingers wrote:
They are not special characters and yet when they assault another unit they can declare a challenge.

Sergeants are characters - that's spelled out pretty explicitly.

I agree that SGT's are considered SC, but in the manner of discussion above that is not how it is playing out.