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 Neorealist wrote:
So yes, the Hydra would be an example we were looking for earlier:

Lets say you purchase the optional pintle-mounted storm bolter for it. You then fire the Hydra Autocannons at a nearby passing Flier. (aka: within the range and arc-of-fire of the storm bolter on the vehicle). Can you also at that time choose to fire the bolter at said flier, and furthermore do you hit with the storm bolter only on 6's or as per it's normal ballistic skill?

I believe that the skyfire USR says 'Yes' to this scenario, and at the full ballistic skill of the vehicle no less.

No you can not fire the storm bolter at full BS. The autocannon has the Skyfire rule, not the model. The storm bolter can be fired, but only hit on 6's.

Or to think of it anouther way.

There is a unit a Nobs in LOS of the Hydra. You fire the storm bolter at them. Does that then mean that the autocannon can fire at them at normal BS (as it has Skyfire and not Intercepter it can only fire snap fire at ground targets)? Or does the autocannon suddenly get the Rapid Fire rule from the storm bolter?

Weapons have thier own special rules. A model can give a special rule to all its weapons (like a flyer), but a weapon does not give (normally) give special rules to the model using it. Its why a model with Tankhunter can give it to a quad-gun, but the quad-gun can not give skyfire to the model.

In your example the answer is 'no' because the skyfire rule indicates that weapons with the special rule can only hit ground units on a 6 unless they also have interceptor. (ie: explicitly states this in it's own rules-text) That said, it 'also' says that firing a weapon 'with' skyfire allows you to hit fliers using your full ballistic skill; with no qualifications or restrictions on what other weapons can be fired. As you can no doubt see the reverse is not so explicitly defined, hence this topic.

 Kevin949 wrote:
It's not really ambiguous if you take into account the fact that models firing the quad gun (or any gun emplacement, really) wouldn't be able to fire anything else, so only the gun emplacement would utilize the rule anyway. And other than gun emplacements, I believe only actual models (such as flyers and FMC) can choose to use skyfire with all their weapons.

At least, I can't personally think of a model that has 1 weapon in it's profile that has skyfire and not interceptor and no other weapons with the skyfire rule.

The IG Hydra would like a quiet word with you in the corner...

Gloomfang wrote:Weapons have thier own special rules. A model can give a special rule to all its weapons (like a flyer), but a weapon does not give (normally) give special rules to the model using it. Its why a model with Tankhunter can give it to a quad-gun, but the quad-gun can not give skyfire to the model.

You're right that a weapon does not 'normally' give special rules to the model. The Skyfire rule does, though. At least, according to the wording of the Skyfire rule.

I agree that it's not intentional, and that normal BS should probably only apply to the weapon which actually HAS the rule, but that's not what the rule actually says. Poor wording.

 Neorealist wrote:
Sure! 6th edtion rulebook, page 84. (Specifically the walkers section, though i am sure there is a note in the vehicles section too about them being able to fire multiple weapons simultaniously as well.)
...A walker that moved can still fire all of its weapons in the subsequent Shooting phase...

You'll note that there is not a single model which states it can fire another model's weapon; so for that to work we need to refer to the emplaced weapons rules-text itself:
"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon..."

Note the second quote gives permission for the btb model to fire a weapon instead of one of his own; though there is some contention as to wether or not the model needs to fire the emplaced weapon instead of all of his own weapons, or instead of one of his own weapons. I've addressed this in an earlier post.

This sums it up pretty nicely.

So are those of you asserting a MC or Walker can fire a gun emplacement and all but one of it's weapons also asserting it can run and fire all but one of its weapons?

how would you use POTMS with this?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So are those of you asserting a MC or Walker can fire a gun emplacement and all but one of it's weapons also asserting it can run and fire all but one of its weapons?

I don't think anyone is implying this, since the brb specifically says that you either run or shoot...

I could totally see them wireleslly or via cable the machine spirit sharing targeting information. And by raw this is works. Only the writer of the rule knows what he intended. When you argue rai you are arguing rule as you imagine it.

To sum up:

1) Gun Emplacement Arguement:
"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting..."

Note it says "weapon" not "weapon(s)".

A model can fire the gun emplacement instead of one (1) of its own weapons.
There is no rule that prevents the model from firing its other weapons If it has the capability of firing more then one weapon each turn.

Does anyone wish to contest this statement with an actual quote from brb (not RAI)?

2) Skyfire Arguement:
"A model ...that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

Note that it does not specify a specific weapon "when shooting at Flyers"... the model simply "fires using its normal BS when shooting at Flyers."

Condition 1: Model must fire a weapon with Skyfire to use their full BS
Condition 2: Model must fire at Flyers to use their full BS
Condition 3: These weapons must be fired simultaneously (seems obvious but there was a counter argument brought up about this so I have added it)

Remember we are not arguing RAI, we are discussing the rule as written.
As written, a model that is firing a weapon with Skyfire uses its full BS when shooting at Flyers (for that turn).
Is there any quote from brb that counters this statement? (not RAI)?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
You do keep saying that. Why is it that you feel firing an emplaced weapon temporarily replaces all of the models' attacks, rather than just one of the models' weapons?

As for Skyfire itself? they've only given it to fortifications, fliers, a mysterious objective, and the hydra flak tank so far so i'd have to agree with your latter statement; there isn't a single model currently in the game (that i'm aware of) which only has the skyfire USR on one of the weapons it could legally fire in a turn so that is probably not going to be a good place to look for precident.

I've stated multiple times why and no one has refuted that.

The rest of the debate is moot since that is how the rule for gun emplacements work.

I'm not using that as a precident, I'm using that as a "the gun emplacement is the only time it 'could' be considered and that debate is moot because of what I've been saying."

So I'll reiterate it for you - Walkers and MC's can only fire more than 1 of their own weapons in the shooting phase. If you fire a gun emplacement (that is not owned by any model or really even any army), that gun is not one of the MC's or walkers "own" weapons, so you have now fired 1 weapon that doesn't belong to the model. Where is your permission to fire anything else? It's certainly not in the MC or Walker rule, and the gun emplacement does say "instead of his own weapon" but it does not as "as if firing one of his weapons" or similar wording. The fact it says "instead of" means that the model is, in fact, not firing one of their own weapons. So, no permission there either.

You are allowed to fire 2 Weapons: Weapon A and Weapon B. The Quadgun replaces the firing of one of your weapons. You never lose your permission to fire the other weapon.

No, walkers and MC's are allowed to fire more than 1 of "their own" weapons. You are leaving out a very important bit. They are NOT allowed to fire more than 1 of a weapon that is not "their own". A quad-gun does not belong to any one but itself, models in contact with it can control it but it is not "their" weapon. If you use a walker or MC to fire a weapon that is not "their own" then you can't fire anything else as you have no permission to fire anything else other than a quad gun or "up to two (or all) of their own weapons".

Neorealist wrote:Sure! 6th edtion rulebook, page 84. (Specifically the walkers section, though i am sure there is a note in the vehicles section too about them being able to fire multiple weapons simultaniously as well.)
...A walker that moved can still fire all of its weapons in the subsequent Shooting phase...

You'll note that there is not a single model which states it can fire another model's weapon; so for that to work we need to refer to the emplaced weapons rules-text itself:
"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon..."

Note the second quote gives permission for the btb model to fire a weapon instead of one of his own; though there is some contention as to wether or not the model needs to fire the emplaced weapon instead of all of his own weapons, or instead of one of his own weapons. I've addressed this in an earlier post.

Instead of=/=counts as. You are focusing on the wrong part. You *should* be focusing on the "its own" part.

Irdion wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
It's not really ambiguous if you take into account the fact that models firing the quad gun (or any gun emplacement, really) wouldn't be able to fire anything else, so only the gun emplacement would utilize the rule anyway. And other than gun emplacements, I believe only actual models (such as flyers and FMC) can choose to use skyfire with all their weapons.

At least, I can't personally think of a model that has 1 weapon in it's profile that has skyfire and not interceptor and no other weapons with the skyfire rule.

The IG Hydra would like a quiet word with you in the corner...

Oh? And why is that? All that does is prove my point that the weapon on the hydra has skyfire and not the hydra itself, meaning that only that weapon would use normal BS against a flyer.

Kevin:

"A stationary vehicle can fire all its weapons"

I.e. a vehicle with three weapons can fire three weapons.

"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting..."

"its own weapon"... not all weapons, not all shots, not weapon(s): Just "weapon". Singular, 1 weapon.

i.e. A stationary vehicle can fire all three weapons. It can fire the gun emplacement instead of its own weapon (1):

By RAW we cannot assume that it implies "weapons" when it infact says "weapon"


For Skyfire:

"A model ...that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

Note that it does not specify a specific weapon "when shooting at Flyers"... the model simply "fires using its normal BS when shooting at Flyers."
The Skyfire rule does infact convey the ability to shoot with a full BS against flyers for the turn in which a weapon with Skyfire is utilized by that model.
(this is from my last post)

xAndurilx wrote:
Kevin:

"A stationary vehicle can fire all its weapons"

I.e. a vehicle with three weapons can fire three weapons.

"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting..."

"its own weapon"... not all weapons, not all shots, not weapon(s): Just "weapon". Singular, 1 weapon.

i.e. A stationary vehicle can fire all three weapons. It can fire the gun emplacement instead of its own weapon (1):

By RAW we cannot assume that it implies "weapons" when it infact says "weapon"


For Skyfire:

"A model ...that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

Note that it does not specify a specific weapon "when shooting at Flyers"... the model simply "fires using its normal BS when shooting at Flyers."
The Skyfire rule does in fact convey the ability to shoot with a full BS against flyers for the turn in which a weapon with Skyfire is utilized by that model.
(this is from my last post)

Yes, it can fire the quad gun "instead of" it's own weapon. First off, it's clear the rule was written with only standard infantry in mind, not vehicles. That doesn't mean only infantry can use it, I'm just saying they didn't consider MC's or Walkers (or really, any vehicles).

Second, you're using standard vehicle rules to apply to walkers. It hardly matters though as the wording is identical. Their rules state they can fire all their weapons, or whatever the restrictions may be for movement for standard vehicles. That's great, but the quad gun isn't one of their weapons. Even if they fire it, it's "instead of" firing one of their own, not "counting as" firing one of their own. If they have not fired one of their weapons then they can not fire all of their weapons as you don't have permission to fire all of your weapons +1. You do not have permission for an MC to fire 1 of his weapons and 1 of another weapon. I don't care that you're giving up one of your shots, you're still not shooting one of your weapons and you don't have permission to fire any more than one "not your" weapon or "up to all your own weapons".

About your skyfire rant...you obviously don't understand sentence structure. The point of the ",or is firing a weapon with this special rule," and the two commas in there is that the sentence is meant to replace the first sentence if that is what is happening. You can not take the entire sentence as a whole because it is not. You are to read it as one of these two ways depending on the situation, either version depending on the situation:
"A model with this special rule fires using its normal ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets."
*OR LIKE THIS*
"A model that is firing a weapon with this special rule fires using its normal ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets."

It's pretty clear that either the model OR the weapon gets skyfire, but if it's a weapon then only that weapon gains the benefit.
I'm sorry you don't see this.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Yes, it can fire the quad gun "instead of" it's own weapon. First off, it's clear the rule was written with only standard infantry in mind, not vehicles. That doesn't mean only infantry can use it, I'm just saying they didn't consider MC's or Walkers (or really, any vehicles).

Please do not assume RAI, as we are discussing RAW...

 Kevin949 wrote:

Second, you're using standard vehicle rules to apply to walkers. It hardly matters though as the wording is identical. Their rules state they can fire all their weapons, or whatever the restrictions may be for movement for standard vehicles. That's great, but the quad gun isn't one of their weapons. Even if they fire it, it's "instead of" firing one of their own, not "counting as" firing one of their own. If they have not fired one of their weapons then they can not fire all of their weapons as you don't have permission to fire all of your weapons +1. You do not have permission for an MC to fire 1 of his weapons and 1 of another weapon. I don't care that you're giving up one of your shots, you're still not shooting one of your weapons and you don't have permission to fire any more than one "not your" weapon or "up to all your own weapons".

What quotes and page numbers back up this argument? If there are other rules in the brb that reaffirm this perspective, I would love to know them.

From what I understand:
"Walkers that moved can still fire all its weapons in the subsequent Shooting phase". pg 54
If the Walker has two (2) weapons it can fire two (2) weapons in their shoot phase.

And as for an Emplaced Weapon:
"One model in base contact may fire it instead of his own weapon." pg 105
It appears from this quote that we give up use of a "weapon" (1 weapon...not "weapons") to fire the emplaced weapon.

To me, these seem to directly counter the opposing perspective.

 Kevin949 wrote:

About your skyfire rant...you obviously don't understand sentence structure. The point of the ",or is firing a weapon with this special rule," and the two commas in there is that the sentence is meant to replace the first sentence if that is what is happening. You can not take the entire sentence as a whole because it is not.

Sucks for me, I guess.
On behalf of everyone who doesnt agree with you, we appologize for our ignorance of the English language.

You may wish to have a conversation with wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma

 Kevin949 wrote:

It's pretty clear that either the model OR the weapon gets skyfire, but if it's a weapon then only that weapon gains the benefit.
I'm sorry you don't see this.

Well shoot. See, all this time I thought that the Skyfire rule applied to the model shooting the weapon with Skyfire because:
"A model ...that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..." (pg 42)