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I have been told that you can combine grots, epidemius, and Ku'Gath to creat an auto full chart for the tallyman of pestilence. The only issue I see with this is, why can you shoot at an allied unit? Has that changed in 6th?

You can not voluntarily shoot at them, that's all.

See page 112, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph.

So how are people exploiting this? Are they just throwing and hoping for the best? (or worse as it may be)

You can't shoot at an allied unit in the sense that you can't target them. However, you can shoot at your opponents models. The aura of decay causes all "enemy models" with in 6" (I think it's 6 inches) to take a hit. Since "allies of convenience" are considered enemy models, any allies which are within 6" of Epidemius when aura of decay activates will be hit. This part isn't in dispute.

The current contention as I understand it boils down to the following question : Can you target your opponents models with aura of decay if those models are more than 6" away? If the answer is yes, then this tactic becomes more useful. If the answer is no, then this tactic becomes much more difficult to employ.

Technically, you can't target a unit which is out of range. But even though aura of decay is a shooting attack, it doesn't have a "range" characteristic like other weapons do. Some people argue that the range should be 6", others argue that the range should be "LOS". As far as I know, this thing is still un-resolved.

Sounds like silly rules shenanigans again. Ive just recently started nurgle and as hard up as I am to make Epi a rediculous 1 turn wonder I'm not going to be TFG. Thanks for the answers guys.

I don't own a chaos demon codex, so I have no idea how "TFG" this idea is. But I think it just sounds perfectly fluffy to sacrifice a herd of greenskins to Papa Nurgle.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
I don't own a chaos demon codex, so I have no idea how "TFG" this idea is. But I think it just sounds perfectly fluffy to sacrifice a herd of greenskins to Papa Nurgle.

The affect of this is to give every single Nurgle deamon a 3+ FNP, a power weapon, and poisoned 3+ close combat attacks. It's pretty much dictionary definition TFG behaviour to actually use this in a game of 40k, regardless of how interesting it may be to discuss.

Not a power weapon, an AP2 power weapon. The entry says (and I quote) All attacks from followers of nurgle now ignore armor saves! and 2+ poison for noxious touch.

So by 3+ FNP, you mean that they get their normal 5+ invulnerable for being a demon and then 3+ FNP?

Wow. That's pretty ridiculous.

Not to mention they destory everything in cc at that point.

If your target is out of range, you miss automatically. If you pick a target, you deal with "Check Range" on page 12.

Because the technicality isn't that you can't target a unit of of range. The technicality is that you don't fire at a unit out of range. And the Chaos Damons codex clearly states that "Aura of Decay is a ranged weapon ..." in its second sentence.

That's what stops people from using the flame template to hit a second unit, and it's what should be sufficient to stop someone from killing grots while "aiming" at a unit across the board.

 solkan wrote:
If your target is out of range, you miss automatically.

Actually it's more than that - any model out of range cannot fire. Missing automatically would mean the weapon is still fired, meaning the aura would still go off.

However, the argument is that 6" is not the "range" characteristic it's just the area of effect. The AoD doesn't have a range characteristic like other weapons do.

You know all of that rules lawyer stuff.

Anyway, it's unfortunate that they didn't FAQ this (or did they? I actually didn't check), but the new demon codex will be out soon anyway.

Is it a psychic power? If it's a nova or maelstrom I think it would work. Though I am sure there is more to this, I don't have the demon codex. The power just sounds like a Nova (hits all enemies in a radius) which wouldn't care about LOS or who the enemy was, better yet if it was a maelstrom because then it checks friendlies. Does it effect other cults (none Nurgle)? I am sure this won't hold up just adding a little fuel to the fire.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Is it a psychic power? If it's a nova or maelstrom I think it would work. Though I am sure there is more to this, I don't have the demon codex. The power just sounds like a Nova (hits all enemies in a radius) which wouldn't care about LOS or who the enemy was, better yet if it was a maelstrom because then it checks friendlies. Does it effect other cults (none Nurgle)? I am sure this won't hold up just adding a little fuel to the fire.

The chaos daemons don't have any psy power at all, they are all shooting attacks.

This gets talked about because:

1) Its funny.
2) It makes some sense, Nurgle sacrificing 'friends'...
3) Its really funny.
4) No one would ever really try it.

I saw it done at my FLGS Tuesday.

To the best of my understanding it's legit. It's an area effect ability; it automatically hits enemy models (which Allies of Convenience are considered to be), but doesn't target them (which would be forbidden by the allies rules).

The "misses automatically" clause is an interesting argument, but I don't think it works because the nurgle power in question doesn't select a target. And the rest of that shooting rule says that if you're not in range of your target, you miss automatically.

I suspect it'd be played a lot more if the legality of it could be determined. it's a really powerful combo that doesn't really cost much at all to pull off, points-wise.

Well you are looking at 100 points minimum to do this (Warboss + 10 Gretchin with Runtherd), you'll give your opponent a VP (in Purge the Alien) and possibly First Blood.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I saw it done at my FLGS Tuesday.

To the best of my understanding it's legit. It's an area effect ability; it automatically hits enemy models (which Allies of Convenience are considered to be), but doesn't target them (which would be forbidden by the allies rules).

The "misses automatically" clause is an interesting argument, but I don't think it works because the nurgle power in question doesn't select a target. And the rest of that shooting rule says that if you're not in range of your target, you miss automatically.

Actually, if you're not in range of your target you cannot fire.

True, but you can still make use of the ork HQ after you sacrifice his minions, so you are only losing 60-70 or so points (ie: the cost of the grots) to make the majority of your models combat beasts. It's a cheap price for a 3+ FNP and armor-ignoring CCWs which wound on a 2+ more or less army-wide.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
However, the argument is that 6" is not the "range" characteristic it's just the area of effect. The AoD doesn't have a range characteristic like other weapons do.

You know all of that rules lawyer stuff.

Anyway, it's unfortunate that they didn't FAQ this (or did they? I actually didn't check), but the new demon codex will be out soon anyway.

Simple counter argument: It's a ranged weapon with no range. Therefore broken (that is, according to the rules, does nothing, because GW didn't bother to FAQ it) by 6th edition. You're welcome to bring the matter up with GW if you feel it should be otherwise.

If someone used this tactic against you arguing that they could target anything they felt like and have the ability go off, you're simply not trying.

it is a bit overpowered but at least it does cost, and take some manoevering to pull off - particularly if you have to get within 6 inches of an enemy model.

You give up a victory point for the grots in a couple of missions, and the cost of the grots as well.

Has great modelling opportunities as well - imagine a squad of grots holding potion bottles containing various vile diseases.

If i remember correctly the models must be killed by epi, so I can imagine a scene like Aragorn on Helms deep when he sees the goblin carrying fire running towards the wall "Bring the grots down! bring them down!"

I'm honestly surprised they nerfed fateweaver with the new FAQ and not Epidemus. He seems to be the more beardy of the two.

Then again Epidemus is much easier to remove from the table by conventional means.

 RFHolloway wrote:
it is a bit overpowered but at least it does cost, and take some manoevering to pull off - particularly if you have to get within 6 inches of an enemy model.

You give up a victory point for the grots in a couple of missions, and the cost of the grots as well.

Has great modelling opportunities as well - imagine a squad of grots holding potion bottles containing various vile diseases.

If i remember correctly the models must be killed by epi, so I can imagine a scene like Aragorn on Helms deep when he sees the goblin carrying fire running towards the wall "Bring the grots down! bring them down!"

Nope. They can be killed by anything with the mark of nurgle. Daemon, or marine. Allied or enemy. And it effects everything with the mark of nurgle, again, allied or enemy, Daemon or marine.

But of course they can't be targeted by shooting or assault, so only the radius-effect nurgle plague thing (blanking on the name) an actually be used on the grots. Which IIRC is limited to epi, greater daemons and daemon princes?

Epi and Kugath was the idea. Kugath is just disgusting at ranged combat when you are running Epi.

One last question in reference to the quote "Attacks from followers of Nurgle now ignore armor saves!"

Does this refer only to cc? or does it make ranged attacks ap2 as well?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Epi and Kugath was the idea. Kugath is just disgusting at ranged combat when you are running Epi.

One last question in reference to the quote "Attacks from followers of Nurgle now ignore armor saves!"

Does this refer only to cc? or does it make ranged attacks ap2 as well?

CC and ranged attacks are both affected. It does not make them AP2, they just ignore armour. So a bolter would be AP5 but ignore armour. Only really matters against vehicles.

Touche'. Thanks for the replies guys.

Sorry if its considered thread necro but I don't think this tactic is legal. It was used on me a while back in a tourny, utillizing a skyshield landing pad, grots, two hearalds, Aura of Decay and Epi. While I could not think of why it could not work at the time, now I would say, no it does not.
I dont believe you can just fire off the Aura without a valid target as the aura is a ranged weapon and it must be able to have line of sight as per the FAQ.


PG 12 BRB
LINE OF SIGHT
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line
of sight (see page 8) to at least one model in the target unit.
If no models have line of sight, then a different target must
be chosen.

CHECK RANGE
All weapon have a maximum range which is the furthest
distance they can shoot. At least one weapon must be in range
of the target unit. If no weapons are in range, then a different
target must be chosen.

Any model that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the range unit
doesn't shoot.

Thoughts???