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RoninXiC wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Honestly, I don't see how people come across this major gripe that "Big Units have killed manoeuvering, and other such tactical moves".

The rules that allowed WHFB to be a game of movement have either been removed or rendered all but useless. March blocking, redirecting and flank charges are now a shadow of their former selves.

I ran big blocks in 7 (I played Night Goblins) so I don't count large units as a hinderance, even if it was a cynical ploy on the part of GW.

Seems like you still need to figure out how amazingly superior "quick-reform" and "after-combat-reforms" actually are.

Some armies like Lizardmen, Darkelves or Chaosdwarves can field whole armies of SUPER mobile units, monsters, flying characters and whatsnot.

8th allows more quick and flexible movements than ANY other warhammer fantasy edition before.

Seems like you still need to fig- ... Hey, wait a minute, that was what I was going to say! But seriously, yes, QFT!

Palindrome wrote:Thats your own units though, you can't have any real effect on enemy units.

Well, yes you can. I'll list the three things you mentioned before:

March Blocking - Ok, yes, March Blocking has been nerfed a bit in 8th. But you (and you're not the only one) go on about it being a 'tactical manoeuver'. But, really, was it? Basically, you got a unit of Harpies/Eagles/Equivalent and plonked it over behind your enemies lines first chance you got. March block done. Pat yourself on the back. Think about it, how much thought actually goes into that 'tactical manoeuver'?

Redirecting - Redirecting is still a valid tactic. The Feigned Flight rule allows Redirecting to work like a charm, since there's a high chance that, when your redirectors flee, they can rally, reform and then be able to do the exact same thing again straight away.

Flank Charges - Flank Charges are still pretty damn useful. I can't remember the exact rules on them in 7th, but nowadays it gives you the +1 Combat res and, most of the time, you'll be able to disrupt them, denying them any extra combat res from rank bonuses. Okay, it doesn't mitigate Steadfast, which'd be nice, but I've talked about how to do just that earlier on. Flank Charges are still very, very handy, and positioning units to line up one is an excellent tactic.

Palindrome wrote:
Thats your own units though, you can't have any real effect on enemy units.

You mean like:
Placing units in front of enemy unitso he is extremely limited in his movement? He could either charge and overrun into no-mans land or stop and move a total of 1".
Redirecting is as strong as it used to be. Place to diverters in front of him and after two failed charges you stole a whole turn from that unit.

Big units never see action in games of competetive players. They are just too unwieldy compared to all the little stuff that you can put into its way.

Marchblocking is still possible btw... not every unit is in the leadership bubble. Just give it a try, it actually works.

 The Shadow wrote:

Well, yes you can. I'll list the three things you mentioned before:

March Blocking - Ok, yes, March Blocking has been nerfed a bit in 8th. But you (and you're not the only one) go on about it being a 'tactical manoeuver'. But, really, was it? Basically, you got a unit of Harpies/Eagles/Equivalent and plonked it over behind your enemies lines first chance you got. March block done. Pat yourself on the back. Think about it, how much thought actually goes into that 'tactical manoeuver'?

Redirecting - Redirecting is still a valid tactic. The Feigned Flight rule allows Redirecting to work like a charm, since there's a high chance that, when your redirectors flee, they can rally, reform and then be able to do the exact same thing again straight away.

Flank Charges - Flank Charges are still pretty damn useful. I can't remember the exact rules on them in 7th, but nowadays it gives you the +1 Combat res and, most of the time, you'll be able to disrupt them, denying them any extra combat res from rank bonuses. Okay, it doesn't mitigate Steadfast, which'd be nice, but I've talked about how to do just that earlier on. Flank Charges are still very, very handy, and positioning units to line up one is an excellent tactic.

They have all been nerfed to the extent that they are hardly worth the effort now.

Palindrome wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Well, yes you can. I'll list the three things you mentioned before:

March Blocking - Ok, yes, March Blocking has been nerfed a bit in 8th. But you (and you're not the only one) go on about it being a 'tactical manoeuver'. But, really, was it? Basically, you got a unit of Harpies/Eagles/Equivalent and plonked it over behind your enemies lines first chance you got. March block done. Pat yourself on the back. Think about it, how much thought actually goes into that 'tactical manoeuver'?

Redirecting - Redirecting is still a valid tactic. The Feigned Flight rule allows Redirecting to work like a charm, since there's a high chance that, when your redirectors flee, they can rally, reform and then be able to do the exact same thing again straight away.

Flank Charges - Flank Charges are still pretty damn useful. I can't remember the exact rules on them in 7th, but nowadays it gives you the +1 Combat res and, most of the time, you'll be able to disrupt them, denying them any extra combat res from rank bonuses. Okay, it doesn't mitigate Steadfast, which'd be nice, but I've talked about how to do just that earlier on. Flank Charges are still very, very handy, and positioning units to line up one is an excellent tactic.

They have all been nerfed to the extent that they are hardly worth the effort now.

I'll be honest with you Shadow. I thought you had a valid argument, but this just blows it out of the water.

@Palindrome- I'll agree that march blocking is a lot more difficult to pull of now- but I didn't find it to be particularly clever before. As The Shadow said- it was more a matter of who had access to flyers that could drop down out of line of sight.

Redirecting is alive and well. It may take more effort than before, but there are plenty of chaff heavy lists that are working up and down the top tables at tournaments, ensuring the right matchup gets fought at the right time. If you don't think redirecting and chaff have a place anymore, you haven't played against the right players.

Flank charges are still pretty huge- but getting a flank charge isn't necessarily an auto-win. In an evenly matched combat, though, you can earn yourself enough of an advantage to win the ensuing grind, even if you don't bust through in a single turn.

These complaints feel like they're generated from an initial impression that never got past the "try some other things" phase...

I've only played a couple of introductory games of Fantasy and it didn't seem like the game for me. After playing GW games for +25 years, for the past few years my GW spend has dropped off now to the point of I only buy their paints.

Due to their high pricing and focus on selling the latest, greatest model instead of the hobby aspects, I've invested in other games systems.

DUST Tactics I find to be one of the best games I've played. The rules are simple, but there are so many tactical aspects to this game that can be explored. Firestorm Armada has now taken off in my area and with Spartan's up comming release of table top 40k size games set in the Firestorm universe, I can see that taking over GW's 40k. I've also recently invested in Sedition Wars and Relic Knights.

Basically, in my area, all of GW games systems are in a major decline, mostly due to their product prices and people are swiftly moving into other games systems that seemingly offer far more value for money, playability, and more importently, fun.

I stopped playing when they started forcing you to take certain percentages of your army as certain troops, then they arbitrarily decided which troops went into which category based off how much money they would make forcing you to buy them.

I used to have a 2000 point Lizardman army that was fun but not cheesy at all - 30 skinks, 15 saurus, 15 temple guard, 4x kroxigors, 2x stegadons and 2x slann (one lowest level, one higher).

This is no longer possible as you need to field at least a giant pile more units to reach the so called "core" level, and you cant take the kroxigors or stegadons as you go over the rare maximum limit etc.

Basically they made my army illegal and told me I had to go buy more models. I'm sorry I have better things to spend my money on now that there are piles of games out there non GW. I would love to get back into Fantasy but similar things happened to all my friends armies as well and we basically all quit at the same time.

 Surloch wrote:
I stopped playing when they started forcing you to take certain percentages of your army as certain troops, then they arbitrarily decided which troops went into which category based off how much money they would make forcing you to buy them.

I used to have a 2000 point Lizardman army that was fun but not cheesy at all - 30 skinks, 15 saurus, 15 temple guard, 4x kroxigors, 2x stegadons and 2x slann (one lowest level, one higher).

This is no longer possible as you need to field at least a giant pile more units to reach the so called "core" level, and you cant take the kroxigors or stegadons as you go over the rare maximum limit etc.

Basically they made my army illegal and told me I had to go buy more models. I'm sorry I have better things to spend my money on now that there are piles of games out there non GW. I would love to get back into Fantasy but similar things happened to all my friends armies as well and we basically all quit at the same time.

The percentage system is the best thing they have ever done for fantasy (or re introduced) Armies like you lizardman army used to piss me off so much back in the day, I want to see big blocks of troops not quaint little units of 15 running around. If you dont want to spend the money or time to make a proper army thats totally fine but its not a fault with the system itself.

I swear nearly every forum is filled with bitter old 7th players who were unable or unwilling to adapt to 8th who no longer seem to play but still frequent warhammer forums to cry and bitch. I play as much for the spectacle of big units marching across the battlefield as I do for the tactical challenge and more models is always a good thing to me.

 Jubear wrote:

The percentage system is the best thing they have ever done for fantasy (or re introduced) Armies like you lizardman army used to piss me off so much back in the day, I want to see big blocks of troops not quaint little units of 15 running around. If you dont want to spend the money or time to make a proper army thats totally fine but its not a fault with the system itself.

Rabble rabble rabble MY OPINION IS RIGHT YOURS IS WRONG WHEN I LIKE THE GAME EVERYTHING IS FINE!

Seriously, you can't be serious about that post. Everything has to be designed after your wishes? Come on now.

Ask skirmishers in 8th what they got out of it. Especially melee skirmishers that now fight uphill vs 1-3 static combat resolution while getting no benefit at all.

Let's all stay calm please people.

Thanks

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

The percentage system is the best thing they have ever done for fantasy (or re introduced) Armies like you lizardman army used to piss me off so much back in the day, I want to see big blocks of troops not quaint little units of 15 running around. If you dont want to spend the money or time to make a proper army thats totally fine but its not a fault with the system itself.

Rabble rabble rabble MY OPINION IS RIGHT YOURS IS WRONG WHEN I LIKE THE GAME EVERYTHING IS FINE!

Seriously, you can't be serious about that post. Everything has to be designed after your wishes? Come on now.

Ask skirmishers in 8th what they got out of it. Especially melee skirmishers that now fight uphill vs 1-3 static combat resolution while getting no benefit at all.

I like to see armies that look like armies not a hero on a dragon with a few token units to fill out troops choices... Skirmishes in 8th are fine they behave like skirmishes should why should a few scattered and lightly equiped soldiers be able to tackle a big block of heavy infantry anyway? The role of skirmishes should be to harass big units and slow them down and that exactly what they do. And the game IS totally fine everything has a counter and the army books and more balanced then they have been in years. I have played since 4th edition and I have seen everything from the scouge of hero hammer in 4/5th to the rise of MSU and gross imbalance of 7th (feth you deamons) Many of the complaints I had about 8th have been addressed in newer army books releases (infantry/warmachines have gone up in points) The fact that I enjoy the look of massed ranks of troops on the table is not really any of your business.

I was a big GW/ 40k fan but never got into fantasy 8th edition completley put me off starting and 6th edtion has put me off 40k all of it seems geared to selling not making people enjoy the models they have.

 Jubear wrote:


I like to see armies that look like armies not a hero on a dragon with a few token units to fill out troops choices... Skirmishes in 8th are fine they behave like skirmishes should why should a few scattered and lightly equiped soldiers be able to tackle a big block of heavy infantry anyway? The role of skirmishes should be to harass big units and slow them down and that exactly what they do. And the game IS totally fine everything has a counter and the army books and more balanced then they have been in years. I have played since 4th edition and I have seen everything from the scouge of hero hammer in 4/5th to the rise of MSU and gross imbalance of 7th (feth you deamons) Many of the complaints I had about 8th have been addressed in newer army books releases (infantry/warmachines have gone up in points) The fact that I enjoy the look of massed ranks of troops on the table is not really any of your business.

8th is well balanced? Interesting, you seem to be far more knowledgeable than a huge part of the gaming community then. May thee share thy wisdow with us and may thy light of wisdom fall upon our poor souls. Certainly, I could care less about what you like. What does affect me, however, is when you come out of the blue and justify 8th being better than any other edition just because you like bigger units instead of smaller but more numerous ones. What about those who prefer playing with skirmishing tactics and thus use more numerous, but smaller units? Alas, you don't like it thus they are wrong. You got your opinion of a "good" game, others may have different ideas. Simply accept that it's legitimate to have a different view on certain matters. Yeeesh.

The game is far from fine right now. Magic is way too strong along with warmachines getting a huge overall buff and steadfeast...yeeesh. Certainly, those issues might be solved with new codices but as a rational being, I rather take the game's current iteration into consideration rather than what it might be in 1-2 years.

8th is only about selling more models, it didn't try to balance anything out, it merely took a few imbalances (aka herohammer) and transferred them over (from OP individual heroes to OP big units e.g. skaven slaves not getting Instability). Tactical components that actually required skill / experience such as range-guessing, flanking, redirecting etc. have been removed or have been dumbed-down.

I disagree with all of those now being null in 8th, though, as others stated. Flank charges still are very effective as your enemy can only strick back with the first "rank" and you negative his rank bonusses. The problem is the new, ridicoulously overpowered Steadfeast rule. Flanking with bigger units should always remove Steadfeast given the attacker is big enough. Furthermore, Skirmishers should be more effective at flanking as right now, they do nothing but delivering mere attacks. A wild horde of disorganized yet more flexible units is able to cause a lot of trouble. A unit of sword dancers suddenly appearing in your flank jumping around among your ranks is at least as threatening as...10 Orks in rank and file. At the very least.

I like the fact that 8th changed our local meta aka turned it more towards 40k and my experience goes along with that of many others in this thread. Less WHFB, more 40k. Good.

Oh, lol at all those LotR guys btw, there's rumors they still exist

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Jubear wrote:


I like to see armies that look like armies not a hero on a dragon with a few token units to fill out troops choices... Skirmishes in 8th are fine they behave like skirmishes should why should a few scattered and lightly equiped soldiers be able to tackle a big block of heavy infantry anyway? The role of skirmishes should be to harass big units and slow them down and that exactly what they do. And the game IS totally fine everything has a counter and the army books and more balanced then they have been in years. I have played since 4th edition and I have seen everything from the scouge of hero hammer in 4/5th to the rise of MSU and gross imbalance of 7th (feth you deamons) Many of the complaints I had about 8th have been addressed in newer army books releases (infantry/warmachines have gone up in points) The fact that I enjoy the look of massed ranks of troops on the table is not really any of your business.

8th is well balanced? Interesting, you seem to be far more knowledgeable than a huge part of the gaming community then. May thee share thy wisdow with us and may thy light of wisdom fall upon our poor souls. Certainly, I could care less about what you like. What does affect me, however, is when you come out of the blue and justify 8th being better than any other edition just because you like bigger units instead of smaller but more numerous ones. What about those who prefer playing with skirmishing tactics and thus use more numerous, but smaller units? Alas, you don't like it thus they are wrong. You got your opinion of a "good" game, others may have different ideas. Simply accept that it's legitimate to have a different view on certain matters. Yeeesh.

The game is far from fine right now. Magic is way too strong along with warmachines getting a huge overall buff and steadfeast...yeeesh. Certainly, those issues might be solved with new codices but as a rational being, I rather take the game's current iteration into consideration rather than what it might be in 1-2 years.

8th is only about selling more models, it didn't try to balance anything out, it merely took a few imbalances (aka herohammer) and transferred them over (from OP individual heroes to OP big units e.g. skaven slaves not getting Instability). Tactical components that actually required skill / experience such as range-guessing, flanking, redirecting etc. have been removed or have been dumbed-down.

I disagree with all of those now being null in 8th, though, as others stated. Flank charges still are very effective as your enemy can only strick back with the first "rank" and you negative his rank bonusses. The problem is the new, ridicoulously overpowered Steadfeast rule. Flanking with bigger units should always remove Steadfeast given the attacker is big enough. Furthermore, Skirmishers should be more effective at flanking as right now, they do nothing but delivering mere attacks. A wild horde of disorganized yet more flexible units is able to cause a lot of trouble. A unit of sword dancers suddenly appearing in your flank jumping around among your ranks is at least as threatening as...10 Orks in rank and file. At the very least.

I like the fact that 8th changed our local meta aka turned it more towards 40k and my experience goes along with that of many others in this thread. Less WHFB, more 40k. Good.

Oh, lol at all those LotR guys btw, there's rumors they still exist

Ok I am not trying to sound condescending but I play ALOT and have prolly racked up well over 200 plus games of 8th (not including learning games or intro games) so yes I prolly do know better then alot of the gaming community. Magic is getting less and less powerful with every army book as items etc that generate power dice are becoming a lot rarer and folk working out that if they take a 100 strong unit filled to the brim with heroes etc is just begging to be 6th spelled. As for the new editions being an excuse to sell models well GW are a business not a charity its there job to sell models it always has been and always will be.

Range guessing is not a "skill" that should be valid in a tabletop wargame and can be negated with a notepad and keeping track of your opponents moves (or some maths if you can be bothered) and Sorry I still dont agree that a small bunch of lightly armed skirmishes should be able to achieve much against a shield wall of heavy infantry. And as for MSU its still alive and doing great it simply requires skill and has some real merit in 8th also slaves are fine any block of 50 or so core troops will destroy slaves in one turn of combat I will never understand why folk struggle so badly with them (dont run horde vs slave a slave bus)

Enjoy your 40k with its massive variation of armies (blue marines or red marines or silver marines) and pew pew pew pew pew pew pew FOR THE EMPEROR!!!! (who is a douche) pew pew pew pew pew pew pew.

 Jubear wrote:


Ok I am not trying to sound condescending but I play ALOT and have prolly racked up well over 200 plus games of 8th (not including learning games or intro games) so yes I prolly do know better then alot of the gaming community.

Enjoy your 40k with its massive variation of armies (blue marines or red marines or silver marines) and pew pew pew pew pew pew pew FOR THE EMPEROR!!!! (who is a douche) pew pew pew pew pew pew pew.

Your ignorance and lack of humility is appaling.

And with all due respect (it's just a saying after all), but if you seriously state that any core troops will destroy a block of skaven slaves in a single round of combat, then...well, you have probably played about 2 games, not 200, and just pretend having played more than you actually did. Not to mention that at the same time that you called range guessing not a skill, you explained why it is a skill...but what can one expect from the likes of you :/

See, feel free to enjoy 8th. Nobody stops you from doing so. Keep enforcing your opinions on others, etc....if someone likes getting treated that way, why not, it's not my piece of cake. Keep boasting about stuff you haven't seen / done.

Ok lets have some fun with math hammer 50 slaves vs 50 Empire state troops who we will assume have halbards (never see them with much else)while the slaves are naked (how most folk run them) and both are in bus formation ok Int is not going to matter so lets just ignore that. The state troops will average 4.4 wounds while the slaves average 2.08. The state troops win the fight due to combat res and standard (slaves cant take standards) the slaves do not have steadfast and go boom (always funny). Also how is keeping a journal on your opponents movement a skill related to generalship? I mean Rommel was famed for his ability to eyeball 12" and Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....


And yeah I totally like to brag about spending wayyyy to much time pushing little men around a table its how I get the ladies.

I'm starting fantasy, finally got round to painting my Skull Pass goblins. What really put me off playing fantasy before was the amount of troops you actually need and paying £10 for movement trays.

When 8th came out I went halfsies on 2 sets of the IoB, assembled it all up and played 2 games. I them sold everything immediately.

#1) the game is too random for me
#2) it was obvious right out the gate you PILES of guys
#3) I'm not a fan of any game where those 30 guys you painted up drop like flies or worse eyt are all obliterated in a single moment

The major killer of the game in my area is the cost. New blood is really hard to get invested when it costs as much as it does. 40k has also taken a huge hit in my area because of the costs/power creep/tournaments being hosed.

In my area at least GW has finally achieved their apex and it's easier to get in a Infinity/Malifaux/warmahordes game in then it is a 40k game.

I think BlueDagger sums it up nicely... I've seen similar issues in my area, and a good friend of mine that used to love WFB (and is a really good WFB general!) really can't stand 8th for many of the same reasons listed above.

Well, bad for you.
In Germany we figure out Fantasys problems like years ago and fixed it ourselves.

We actually changed some rules (especially magic) and put restrictions on other things (unitsizes, some magic items, etc). The result is a much better Fantasy for it's less random, more strategic and the armies aren't THAT far away from each other (there obviously are better armies, but the difference is less brutal).

It's your game. Change it if you don't like the rules.

I don't think the rules exist in English, but maybe you can understand some of the German stuff: http://www.tabletopwelt.de/forum/showthread.php?t=139025

Again: If you don't like 8th and don't like putting your own changes into your game, you're missing a huge opportunity.

RoninXiC wrote:
Well, bad for you.
In Germany we figure out Fantasys problems like years ago and fixed it ourselves.

We actually changed some rules (especially magic) and put restrictions on other things (unitsizes, some magic items, etc). The result is a much better Fantasy for it's less random, more strategic and the armies aren't THAT far away from each other (there obviously are better armies, but the difference is less brutal).

It's your game. Change it if you don't like the rules.

I don't think the rules exist in English, but maybe you can understand some of the German stuff: http://www.tabletopwelt.de/forum/showthread.php?t=139025

Again: If you don't like 8th and don't like putting your own changes into your game, you're missing a huge opportunity.

Word. A few simple changes can solve pretty much all the problems of 8th.

1) Allow Steadfast (but not stubborn) to be removed by disruption.

2) Make Spell Resistance work like this: Bonus to ward-save against any spell which causes wounds, flat save which may always be taken against spells which remove whole models (each save preventing one model from being removed), and a single, unit-wide save vs hexes.

So, lets say I've got a unit with a 6+ ward and Magic Resistance 2. They are hit by The Penumbral Pendulum, taking 5 wounds. They get a 6+ Ward, with a +2, making it a 4+ save. Likewise, I have a unit of Ogres with Magic Resistance 2, who are hit by Fireball. They take 3 wounds, and get a 5+ save against each. So this part works as normal.

Then, the Ogres get hit by Purple Sun. Six fail their Initiative Check. Each now must make a save, and on a 5+ the Ogre lives. On anything else, it dies. Note this is despite saves not normally being allowed.

Finally, they are hit by Spirit Leach (my opponent doesn't like them). They get to roll one die, and on a 5+, the spell does nothing.

3) Give Cavalry/Monstrous Cavalry the "Cavalry charge" rule. On a turn they charge, double the number of 5-model ranks they are treated as having. I highly doubt this will hurt large units charged in the front, but it will devastate disrupted units, and allow for easier disruption of other units.

Really like those.

1) should have been included anyway, it's mandatory for actual balance yet it would make people buy less minis due to big units being less effective.

2) Deny The Witch for Fantasy

3) Cavalry further suffers from the charge reaction changes to initative. It's pretty ridiculous when my friend's Bretonnian Knights charge my unit of Chaos Warriors and I get to strike first...imo, cavalry should have ASF. I don't think that the additional attacks are necessary though as most infantry that wants to get in melee comes in smaller numbers or lances thus more ranks isn't that necessary, it's about killing the enemy before he can strike back.

Magic in general is a problem. It's the most deciding factor in games as some lores, especially life, are way overpowered and lead to very boring, luck-based games. If you've ever played a Teclis list, you know what I'm talking of. Same goes for Gatespammers etc. You get lucky and almost won the game. Fun. Gods, Lore of Life...Throne of Vines is just...wow. Just wow...

7th was a lot better magic-wise. Power dice should never be random at all, especially not with magic being so strong.

Alas, this seems to become a suggested rules thread

C.O.M.B.A.T. is a good attempt at getting a re-balance. Some flaws still exist / are created but overall, it works a lot better than vanilla 8th rules, yet is worse than 7th overall.

And guys, let's not even start the magic expansion crap. Storm of Magic is the worst balanced expansion I have ever seen in any sort of game. *shudders*

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

2) Make Spell Resistance work like this: Bonus to ward-save against any spell which causes wounds, flat save which may always be taken against spells which remove whole models (each save preventing one model from being removed), and a single, unit-wide save vs hexes.

See this trotted out an awful lot in proposed changes. I think it carries unintended consequences, though. Right now, the big spells are a useful check on huge units. If you permit magic resistance against things like final transmutation, than I think all you'd see is one more character/banner/item in the deathstars granting magic resistance.

MetalOxide wrote:
I'm starting fantasy, finally got round to painting my Skull Pass goblins..

Funny..now that you mention it, I have painted tons of Orcs & Goblins but I still haven't gotten around to paint those Skull Pass Goblins...

 Red_Zeke wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

2) Make Spell Resistance work like this: Bonus to ward-save against any spell which causes wounds, flat save which may always be taken against spells which remove whole models (each save preventing one model from being removed), and a single, unit-wide save vs hexes.

See this trotted out an awful lot in proposed changes. I think it carries unintended consequences, though. Right now, the big spells are a useful check on huge units. If you permit magic resistance against things like final transmutation, than I think all you'd see is one more character/banner/item in the deathstars granting magic resistance.

You are correct, right now, 6th spells are, along with war machines, the most effective way to take out big units and thus buff to magic defense would directly buff big units again.

That's where the "flanking denies steadfast" part kicks in: big units no longer keep steadfast and are far more likely to lose a battle when being flanked. Thus in order to defeat big units, flanking becomes a lot more important again.

That's where the game should be: instead of having a counter that requires absolutely no skill and is fully relying on luck, you'd get a counter that's harder to pull off yet more effective (as in more reliable to work out).

That certainly is not the spirit of 8th as 8th is all about making the game easier to get into or, bland, dumbing the game down. Thus only proposed rules

 Phototoxin wrote:
8th ed killed fantasy. It was at its hight at 6th ed I think. 7th ed just nerfbatted magic but everything was more or less similar. 8th ed did a complete 180 while taking LSD and snorting cocaine from a warpstone covered table...

basically what 40k is doing now, if they keep up with this 80s gak Im done.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Phototoxin wrote:
8th ed killed fantasy. It was at its hight at 6th ed I think. 7th ed just nerfbatted magic but everything was more or less similar. 8th ed did a complete 180 while taking LSD and snorting cocaine from a warpstone covered table...

basically what 40k is doing now, if they keep up with this 80s gak Im done.

its a shame, I really loved 6th ed for fantasy, 7th was unplayable and 8th I am on the fence for...I really dislike having to paint so many models even for armies that shouldn't need that many
3rd for 40k was a good ed, 4th was interesting because it brought some armies out of their shells (like old ones, so even though they were old they still functioned well)
5th was when things all went wrong

I don't think that 8th is all that bad, I just don't think it's super fun. When I dropped temporarily, the focus was on combat blocks marching forward killing each other. That just didn't sit well with my fun side. I've been meaning to start up a mobile Wood Elves army to try and have fun with it. Does anybody have a spare Wood Elves book I can buy?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Phototoxin wrote:
8th ed killed fantasy. It was at its hight at 6th ed I think. 7th ed just nerfbatted magic but everything was more or less similar. 8th ed did a complete 180 while taking LSD and snorting cocaine from a warpstone covered table...

basically what 40k is doing now, if they keep up with this 80s gak Im done.

its a shame, I really loved 6th ed for fantasy, 7th was unplayable and 8th I am on the fence for...I really dislike having to paint so many models even for armies that shouldn't need that many
3rd for 40k was a good ed, 4th was interesting because it brought some armies out of their shells (like old ones, so even though they were old they still functioned well)
5th was when things all went wrong

If you notice the trend its when GW became more and more concerned about money and less what people wanted. Dont your customers and treat them like and the effect is amazing.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
There's always some one complaining about and quitting some game on these forums, and that's not this post. This post is about the sharp decline in Warhammer FB players and traders. When I joined Dakka, there seemed to be a good amount of both fantasy and 40k players. It was easy for me to trade a fantasy army to 40k and back again on numerous occasions. Now, it seems like every trade is fantasy models looking for 40k. Has it always been this way and I was just fortunate in the past to find fair trades, or is there an exodus from WHFB? I personally am currently trying to trade 2 decent sized fantasy armies, and am even offering to sell them at half of retail and I'm having no luck (and these are mostly unpainted, some un-assembled models! I for one am not leaving fantasy, and am merelyy trying to part with some extra armies as I have settled in with my two favorite armies, but are a lot of people leaving the hobby? I'm just looking for some information. Thanks all

Blame GW. 8th edition blows. And many people are/have fled the game and no real new ones enter. 8th is akin to 4th edition fantasy, only with dice for magic instead of cards.