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 m14 wrote:
I don't think that 8th is all that bad, I just don't think it's super fun. When I dropped temporarily, the focus was on combat blocks marching forward killing each other. That just didn't sit well with my fun side. I've been meaning to start up a mobile Wood Elves army to try and have fun with it. Does anybody have a spare Wood Elves book I can buy?

I have an old orion

carmachu wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
There's always some one complaining about and quitting some game on these forums, and that's not this post. This post is about the sharp decline in Warhammer FB players and traders. When I joined Dakka, there seemed to be a good amount of both fantasy and 40k players. It was easy for me to trade a fantasy army to 40k and back again on numerous occasions. Now, it seems like every trade is fantasy models looking for 40k. Has it always been this way and I was just fortunate in the past to find fair trades, or is there an exodus from WHFB? I personally am currently trying to trade 2 decent sized fantasy armies, and am even offering to sell them at half of retail and I'm having no luck (and these are mostly unpainted, some un-assembled models! I for one am not leaving fantasy, and am merelyy trying to part with some extra armies as I have settled in with my two favorite armies, but are a lot of people leaving the hobby? I'm just looking for some information. Thanks all

Blame GW. 8th edition blows. And many people are/have fled the game and no real new ones enter. 8th is akin to 4th edition fantasy, only with dice for magic instead of cards.

Our fantasy died around the time of 7th, since several players played Truly Cheesy DE/VC/DoC lists, to the point that everyone just up and quit..then 8th came and people began bringing more out.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

carmachu wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
There's always some one complaining about and quitting some game on these forums, and that's not this post. This post is about the sharp decline in Warhammer FB players and traders. When I joined Dakka, there seemed to be a good amount of both fantasy and 40k players. It was easy for me to trade a fantasy army to 40k and back again on numerous occasions. Now, it seems like every trade is fantasy models looking for 40k. Has it always been this way and I was just fortunate in the past to find fair trades, or is there an exodus from WHFB? I personally am currently trying to trade 2 decent sized fantasy armies, and am even offering to sell them at half of retail and I'm having no luck (and these are mostly unpainted, some un-assembled models! I for one am not leaving fantasy, and am merelyy trying to part with some extra armies as I have settled in with my two favorite armies, but are a lot of people leaving the hobby? I'm just looking for some information. Thanks all

Blame GW. 8th edition blows. And many people are/have fled the game and no real new ones enter. 8th is akin to 4th edition fantasy, only with dice for magic instead of cards.

Our fantasy died around the time of 7th, since several players played Truly Cheesy DE/VC/DoC lists, to the point that everyone just up and quit..then 8th came and people began bringing more out.

I agree with this sentiment from my local area perspective. During 6th and 7th, there were fewer and fewer Fantasy players. In metropolitan area of over four million people, you would have been lucky to have seen two or three Fantasy tournaments advertised in the whole area over the course of the year by the end of 7th edition. Currently, there's a tournament every month in one location or another in the area.

Its sad that its dead, A painted warhammer force on the table looks way better then most 40k forces.
But im a sucker for dragons so IDK

For some reason, the more 6th edition 40k I play, the more I long to get back to playing Fantasy. The random charge lengths and emphasis on larger infantry mobs makes the games feel more similar than ever to me.

I am fortunate to have a group of players at my FLGS that likes to rotate game systems to keep things interesting. I play 40k, Fantasy, and Warmahordes and each game is fun in it's own way.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Its sad that its dead, A painted warhammer force on the table looks way better then most 40k forces.
But im a sucker for dragons so IDK

I agree. One advantage fantasy has is that the armies a lot more different compared to 40k with its 80% tin can armies...but then again, Necrons still take the cake. My main gripe about Fantasy's forces is that they play incredibly similar and some are just downright boring...WoC is all about shoving your troops forward and letting them get into melee. The end, you win. Support with Tzeentch. Pro level: use marauder horsemen to get rid of war machines.

I can only recommend everyone to play WE / Bretons. Sure, they are not as overpowered as Demons, Dark Elves or the likes, but it's so much more fun to play them Too bad that GW nerfed WE so hard. No other army got hit that hard by 8th :/

/e: Well, Bretons have also been fethed pretty hard except for their OP trebuchets.

Bretonnians are fine, they just lack options. Bretonnian armies work really well if done right, it's just that they don't have any options to vary up the force.

WE play the game of either I'm not going to lose anything and win by ~100 points or I'm going to pick where we fight and I'll beat you there. Dryads are fantastic anyway...

Dryads suffer from the huge nerf skirmishers took in 8th. While their fighting abilities are still good (not more, not less), they suffer from being forced to fight vs. a static combat resolution bonus of 1-3.

Bretonnians were also nerfed hard by the changes to cavalry.

Both armies are very sub-par now, WE arguably being the worst army in 8th.

I've been under the impression Bretonnians are one of the strongest sides for the best tournament players. - Or at least the ones at my club.

Something about Knight "Buses" with the first several ranks having characters in them?

 Compel wrote:
I've been under the impression Bretonnians are one of the strongest sides for the best tournament players. - Or at least the ones at my club.

Something about Knight "Buses" with the first several ranks having characters in them?

Not too scary. Those have the downfall of having a huge flank you can just bump into and even Bret characters can't live up to more powerful characters other factions have access too. Bretonnia's saving grace are their Trebuchets...S5 plates everywhere.

 Jubear wrote:
Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....

Actually Napoleon was an artillery officer so yeah, he did do that. Thanks for playing though.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Really like those.

1) should have been included anyway, it's mandatory for actual balance yet it would make people buy less minis due to big units being less effective.

2) Deny The Witch for Fantasy

3) Cavalry further suffers from the charge reaction changes to initative. It's pretty ridiculous when my friend's Bretonnian Knights charge my unit of Chaos Warriors and I get to strike first...imo, cavalry should have ASF. I don't think that the additional attacks are necessary though as most infantry that wants to get in melee comes in smaller numbers or lances thus more ranks isn't that necessary, it's about killing the enemy before he can strike back.

Magic in general is a problem. It's the most deciding factor in games as some lores, especially life, are way overpowered and lead to very boring, luck-based games. If you've ever played a Teclis list, you know what I'm talking of. Same goes for Gatespammers etc. You get lucky and almost won the game. Fun. Gods, Lore of Life...Throne of Vines is just...wow. Just wow...

7th was a lot better magic-wise. Power dice should never be random at all, especially not with magic being so strong.

Alas, this seems to become a suggested rules thread

C.O.M.B.A.T. is a good attempt at getting a re-balance. Some flaws still exist / are created but overall, it works a lot better than vanilla 8th rules, yet is worse than 7th overall.

And guys, let's not even start the magic expansion crap. Storm of Magic is the worst balanced expansion I have ever seen in any sort of game. *shudders*

See this my problem with GW. Why do I have to balance there game. Other companys do it with out me. Maybe if they had things like play testing, poeple wouldn't have to house rule to make the game work right.

I give my money to the company that think a balanced game is the way to go, not selling more models.

12thRonin wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....

Actually Napoleon was an artillery officer so yeah, he did do that. Thanks for playing though.

What, why sould someone know what the talking about. It's easier to just make stuff up. Right?

Its just because 40K is now very similar to WFB.

Sarcasm detector malfunction...

12thRonin wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....

Actually Napoleon was an artillery officer so yeah, he did do that. Thanks for playing though.

What, why sould someone know what the talking about. It's easier to just make stuff up. Right?

Well since I just quoted that one part, here's the whole thing where he was trying to be a nutsack.

Ok lets have some fun with math hammer 50 slaves vs 50 Empire state troops who we will assume have halbards (never see them with much else)while the slaves are naked (how most folk run them) and both are in bus formation ok Int is not going to matter so lets just ignore that. The state troops will average 4.4 wounds while the slaves average 2.08. The state troops win the fight due to combat res and standard (slaves cant take standards) the slaves do not have steadfast and go boom (always funny). Also how is keeping a journal on your opponents movement a skill related to generalship? I mean Rommel was famed for his ability to eyeball 12" and Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....

So yeah, he pretty much knows the opposite of what he's talking about....

Damn, I wish there was a sarcasm font.

That's cool. I edited...

I think 8th is still a good game. But this larger unit requirement has been turning a lot of people off, at least in my area.

Hi TechMarine.
If WHFB 8th is a good game , but its expencive to collect a 'proper sized' army.
Then it can not compete with a great game with cheaper minatures, can it?

And that the problem.GW plc dont think they have any competition.

And so 'lackluster rules' and 'expensive minatures' are 'plenty good enough' for the 'loyal fans'.

Hobby distributors are reporting a 10-20% increase in sales of hobby games while GW's revenue is flat and their player base continues to shrink.

WFB is good for lining the pockets of GW's upper management with short term sales through price increases and starter sets to people who will quit before they ever come close to making a proper sized army.

Lanrak wrote:
Hi TechMarine.
If WHFB 8th is a good game , but its expencive to collect a 'proper sized' army.
Then it can not compete with a great game with cheaper minatures, can it?

And that the problem.GW plc dont think they have any competition.

And so 'lackluster rules' and 'expensive minatures' are 'plenty good enough' for the 'loyal fans'.

yeah I don't see good things in ten years, for example, in warhammer's future

Lanrak wrote:
Hi TechMarine.
If WHFB 8th is a good game , but its expencive to collect a 'proper sized' army.
Then it can not compete with a great game with cheaper minatures, can it?

And that the problem.GW plc dont think they have any competition.

And so 'lackluster rules' and 'expensive minatures' are 'plenty good enough' for the 'loyal fans'.

If you enjoy the game's background and the look of the miniatures, it doesn't matter much, does it?

GW's "fans" aren't all rabid fanbois who eat up what the "evil empire" says.

Additionally, while the Warhammer Fantasy community has seen a sharp decline, it's by no means dead. To insinuate that it is dead or dying is a fairly large leap to conclusions.

 Cryonicleech wrote:

Additionally, while the Warhammer Fantasy community has seen a sharp decline, it's by no means dead. To insinuate that it is dead or dying is a fairly large leap to conclusions.

Actually, that is the exact definition of a "dying" community...

almostreal wrote:

I agree with this. Having played both for a long time, Fantasy is and has always been a better "game" with better models. It's more random, more fun and MANY less of TFG's playing it. To me, as an older gamer (30's) I don't want to play against power gamers. I game to have fun, I don't want to buy 3 doom scythes and 4 night scythes and 40 warriors who auto glance on 6 and just rolling dice and making someone upset.

I think the real reason for WH's decline isn't the rules, it's the fact that GW cares more about recruiting new people into the hobby who'll spend $1000 in their first year building armies vs. old vets who spend $200 a year in maintaining their hobby. Because they want to recruit new young people, they focus on the game that has the most explosions, the most violence and the one that is easier to learn because tactics aren't that important in 40k. It's mostly about list writing. That's 40k.

I personally prefer a cool game of fantasy with my friends then playing 40k.....it's more tactical, more fun...and MUCH MUCH quicker of a game.

As someone also has played a long time, I have to disagree with all that. There are PLENTY of TFG in fantasy, you just havent run into them. The skaven spam armies of old, Deamon armies before the nerf and playent of other power gamer type armies.

WH decline might also be bacause, frankly, 8th edition reminds me alot of a rehash of 4th edition fantasy. Except with dice rather then power cards. Because again, in both editions, if you get purple power ultimate power all over again...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jubear wrote:


The percentage system is the best thing they have ever done for fantasy (or re introduced) Armies like you lizardman army used to piss me off so much back in the day, I want to see big blocks of troops not quaint little units of 15 running around. If you dont want to spend the money or time to make a proper army thats totally fine but its not a fault with the system itself.

Not really. We've seen percentage system before in 5th?(sorry memory is foggy). Just like then and now, its not really great becasue all it does is sink points into other areas. Like characters. I've already played hero hammer. Not really liking it again.

I swear nearly every forum is filled with bitter old 7th players who were unable or unwilling to adapt to 8th who no longer seem to play but still frequent warhammer forums to cry and bitch. I play as much for the spectacle of big units marching across the battlefield as I do for the tactical challenge and more models is always a good thing to me.

nWhen you have played every edition since 3rd-ish, there are thinks to like and dislike as things change. And when things change too much, its less fun. I know too many fantasy players that have finally thrown up their hands and walked away because 8th finally screwed up their armies and fun.

The thing is.
I know gamers dont like change much.And every edition of WHFB folks have moaned about the changes.

However, 8th edition apears to have been specificaly written for GW plc prime demoghraphic.
Which is NOT gamers, BTW.

Compared to the 30(?) years GW plc has been messing about with WHFB.

AOA arrived at provable levels of balance and more army lists in 8 years.

KoW arrived at better balance , definition and support in less than 4 years.

And most the WHFB gamers I know tend to drift off towards these other rule sets written for gamers.(Using thier existing armies.)

T

I see a lot of folks on both sides of the debate in this thread extrapolating their personal experiences, or the conditions of their local playing area and assuming that applies worldwide. There's also some "I know a guy who knows a guys who says sales are down". Is there someone who's got an actual link to sales or some kind of number that might prove/disprove this assertion that Warhammer Fantasy is "dying"?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:


yeah I don't see good things in ten years, for example, in warhammer's future

This. As soon as (good) 3d printers become affordable, GW's time is pretty much over.

 Red_Zeke wrote:
I see a lot of folks on both sides of the debate in this thread extrapolating their personal experiences, or the conditions of their local playing area and assuming that applies worldwide. There's also some "I know a guy who knows a guys who says sales are down". Is there someone who's got an actual link to sales or some kind of number that might prove/disprove this assertion that Warhammer Fantasy is "dying"?

You are unlikely to ever see any actual sales figures short of rumours, leaks and conjecture. GW are notoriously guarded about things like that. What is true and has been leaked/reported in the past, is that Warmachine/Hordes is more popular (in the USA anyway) than WHFB - with 40K taking top spot. Of course, that says nothing about sales figures and 'more popular' is a very nebulous term.

IcV2's " Non-Collectible Miniature Lines" quarterly analysis is not based on popularity. They are based on, as they say, interviews with retailers, distributors and manufacturers on sales volume. They are also exclusively US-based. The list has been 40k-WM-WHFB-Hordes-another game (it cycles) for years, with WHFB briefly on the bottom (under Dark Heaven) back in 2008 before going up to #3 in 2009...before 8th was released.

It would be a good idea, I think, for them to group WM and H together - nobody plays them exclusively any more these days, anyway.

Nobody knows if they interviews GW about their sales volume. Of course, indies are the real backbone of sales in the US anyway, so it might not matter as much.

In the area i'm at GW WFB field has been in a slow decline since the intro of 8th edition. Some people are attributing this to WFB 8th edition, initially I did. But with the newly revamp'd 40k i'm noticing a interesting fact.

Competitors of GW are just flat out putting out a product that was not previous around, and people are learning due to the internet that there is just more out there then GW.

Look at the other ranges and products that are growing more and more popular:

I'm in the SJ - Philadelphia area.

Warmachine - Hordes has a huge developing growth. People are loving the game. Its more driven by the working man - women IE those people who only get a few hours and want to get multiple game in, and don't want to lug or paint the huge amount of GW models. So they find other ranges.

Flames of War - Lots of people are loving this game. I understand its fun, and people seem to love it win or lose. That's refreshing. Plus there's something about pushing around all those little tanks, plus is based in history, so you get those guys who love history in the game easily.

Dust - I watched my first game of Dust. Wow was that game simple compared to GW - WMHD. For the younger gamers, why even start a GW game, when this game is out there and has funny, neat minatures which grab kids attention?

Bottom line, i went from thinking WFB 8th sucked, to realizing there just is more out there. I re-read 8th and started tinkering again. Speaking with guys in my area, they are all doing the same. Just exploring what is out there and finding what works for them. GW WFB will probably come back around... but not as strong as it was.

Not really. We've seen percentage system before in 5th?(sorry memory is foggy). Just like then and now, its not really great becasue all it does is sink points into other areas. Like characters. I've already played hero hammer. Not really liking it again.

This is something that's always confused me, how is 8th less like 7th when it comes to characters? I only played DE, and VC a lot before, and I remember VC taking very minimum core troops (just the required amount), and than putting everything into their characters, DE took upwards of 1-4 casters/masters/lord, with hydra's and repeaters filling out the rest of the points.

How is 7th less herohammer than 8th?