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 Eidolon wrote:
Tau, its just lackluster and old aged. The fish heads are in serious need of an update and some Matt Ward magic.

In need of an update? Absolutely.

Wardified? HELL NO.

The new Sisters, by a long shot. They basically took the old Sisters, removed Inquisitorial units, and neutered Faith Points to make a decent (if difficult to play) list into a pretty bad one. If you're going to play Sisters of Battle these days you might want to see if you can get permission to use the old Hereticus Codex, it's better.

Orks are a runner-up, though, since they've got exactly no good way of dealing with enemy tanks besides walking up and whacking them with a hammer and the latest Codexes have been pretty template-happy.

 Nitros14 wrote:
I doubt most people who voted Sisters of Battle have actually played against them. They're a middling list, not that weak.

They really really really suffer in the flavour department though.

As a sisters player I dislike that my codex only exists on scribd by loyalists. Yes they took some options away that were not ladies in special pattern armour. Flavor aside I vote against the GK. How loyal to the emperor do you be to kill a whole convent of sisters to just win one battle against daemons, which is your forte? Bad Fluff. Every little kid (noob) starting plays them just so they can win with the most OP list there is. Yay, Termie Spam with force weapons!!!

And for the record: my Boyz of waagh 'edkika, krussed dat draggy 'umie.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Eidolon wrote:
Tau, its just lackluster and old aged. The fish heads are in serious need of an update and some Matt Ward magic.

In need of an update? Absolutely.

Wardified? HELL NO.

Scared you might end up with a decent codex?

 Kaldor wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Eidolon wrote:
Tau, its just lackluster and old aged. The fish heads are in serious need of an update and some Matt Ward magic.

In need of an update? Absolutely.

Wardified? HELL NO.

Scared you might end up with a decent codex?

Embrace the power, join us.

 Kaldor wrote:
Scared you might end up with a decent codex?

Decent codex? No, that would be fine. Be the next GK/Newcrons? Yup.

 Eidolon wrote:
Embrace the power, join us.

Nevar!

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
Scared you might end up with a decent codex?

Decent codex? No, that would be fine. Be the next GK/Newcrons? Yup.

 Eidolon wrote:
Embrace the power, join us.

Nevar!

Yes well, look at it this way;

a) Ward will almost certainly be involved with one of the next three upcoming codices.

b) We're fairly certain the next three books to be Dark Angels, Daemons & Tau.

c) Do we honestly really want Ward to have another crack at his infamous, "Well, they're DAEMONS!1!!!1!lol!" mess?! (you know, the army that made an entire game completely unplayable )

Better the DA's or Tau suffer that monster's wrath than the unthinkable be allowed to happen again... If you experenced 7th ed Fantasy, then you know the true evils that could be unleashed and how the game will likely die out if the Daemons monstrosity unfolds again!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Do we honestly really want Ward to have another crack at his infamous, "Well, they're DAEMONS!1!!!1!lol!" mess?! (you know, the army that made an entire game completely unplayable )

If it means he leaves the Tau alone, then yes.

Better the DA's or Tau suffer that monster's wrath than the unthinkable be allowed to happen again... If you experenced 7th ed Fantasy, then you know the true evils that could be unleashed and how the game will likely die out if the Daemons monstrosity unfolds again!

I disagree, better he leaves the lot alone. But, if he's destined to doom another book as you say, then GW haven't learnt their lesson yet. Another broken army that "kills the game" as you predict will hopefully, finally, drive the message home. I doubt many players will tolerate it a second time, and, seeing as of the three I care least about Chaos Daemons... let them be the sacrificial goat.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Eidolon wrote:
Tau, its just lackluster and old aged. The fish heads are in serious need of an update and some Matt Ward magic.

In need of an update? Absolutely.

Wardified? HELL NO.

To be entirely fair, for 40k at least Matt Ward is far from the worse codex writer (I believe that award goes to Cruddace). Additionally, his 40k Daemons book was fairly well written (at least from a mechanical standpoint and when compared to fantasy daemons), and while BA and GK where over-powered messes, Space Marines and Necrons were both well designed codexes (with Necrons being one of the best designed codexes I have encountered). As long as he doesn't write too much fluff, I think that Ward could easily do a decent job with Tau.

The Sisters need more variety but proved victorious once more today. ;-)

SoB and Chaos Daemons on one side of the table, Tau and Space Wolves on the other. 1500+1500 vs the same. Deployment Dawn of War, mission Scouring. I put 72 infantry and five transports on the table and lost 36 infantry (only 2 units though) in securing a victory for my side. The CD lost 2 units of Pink Horrors and 3 units of Screamers. The opposition was all but wiped out (a couple Razorbacks were still operational) when we decided to call it - a crushing victory both on objectives and on the extra VPs.

My personal vote for worst? In playability? Sisters. With regards to background? Space Wolves followed by the other 5E SM books. With regards to being broken? Under 5E I'd have gone with GK's or SW's, under 6th I'd definitely say Necrons.

RegalPhantom wrote:
Additionally, his 40k Daemons book was fairly well written (at least from a mechanical standpoint and when compared to fantasy daemons),

As a small note, the 40k Demon codex was written by Thorpe and Cavatore

and while BA and GK where over-powered messes, Space Marines and Necrons were both well designed codexes (with Necrons being one of the best designed codexes I have encountered). As long as he doesn't write too much fluff, I think that Ward could easily do a decent job with Tau.

The problem with C:SM was that, until Space Wolves came out, I literally didn't see a marine army that *didn't* have Vulkan in it, or that didn't have TH/SS terminators, and I'm not alone in that experience. I still see most C:SM armies with at least one of those two.

Necrons on the other hand does have a lot of issues. In 6E they pretty much annihilate anything vehicle based thanks to the ludicrous overlapping double-kill mechanic we have going on while their own vehicles have a huge resiliency relative to most opponents (especially their basic transport having an extra HP for no explicable reason), they've got a huge number of gimmick abilities that really break interactivity and abuse a lot of the rules (the ability to potentially keep many games nightfight almost the entire time, Imhotek being the largest crutch "roll dice and stuff happens without any interaction with opponent or game rules" monstrosity ever, using re-deploy abilities and veil of darkness with deathmarks to mark every unit on the table, etc) on top of some really nasty flyers fieldable in large quantities, and 50pt T6 W3 MC's fieldable in units of 3.

Ward really isn't any better than any of the other writers, his rules read like the mad experimentations of a 13 year old's internet fandex.


/

Thanks for the correction. I've only played against the Daemons codex, and since the 40k and Fantasy books were released together and have exactly the same models, minus that walker thing that I can't recall the name of, I had assumed that they had the same person write both to help keep both units in line with each other so that they were easily identifiable in both game systems. Thanks for the correction.

Deadshot wrote:I would have to say Sisters of Battles. as an atheist I personally find the fanatism of the IoM rather annoying but with the IG it is sort of understandable. They have Commissars who say "Believe or die" and SM are less worship, than say, high respect. But Sisters just go on and on and on and deny their God-given rights (no pun intended) to happiness or pleasure.

And also, female space marines. No.

Sisters are not female space marines. Thank the gods. On the other hand, I REALLY object to you saying that the Sisters shouldn't exist as an army because you personally don't believe in invisible friends. I'm not a monotheist either, and I love the Sisters' devotion and the fact that they fight for something greater.

Besides, you're basically cheapening the faith of every Imperial Guardsman in the game. You really think that your standard Guardsman doesn't believe in the god-emperor? No, more than that, you're saying that belief at gunpoint is OK?!

Besides, the Sisters deny themselves most pleasures because they don't want to invite freaking Slaaneshi daemons in for a snack. They have a fething good reason to do the whole self-denial bit, and they're stronger for it!

AnomanderRake wrote:The new Sisters, by a long shot. They basically took the old Sisters, removed Inquisitorial units, and neutered Faith Points to make a decent (if difficult to play) list into a pretty bad one. If you're going to play Sisters of Battle these days you might want to see if you can get permission to use the old Hereticus Codex, it's better.

Orks are a runner-up, though, since they've got exactly no good way of dealing with enemy tanks besides walking up and whacking them with a hammer and the latest Codexes have been pretty template-happy.

Nah, the sisters list from the WD is just as powerful as the old Witch Hunter book, and we're actually stronger for not wasting time with Inquisitorial units. Even under C:WH, I noticed that I was winning a lot more games after I cut out the Stormtroopers and just used Sisters. Besides, at least with the new system you can pretty much guarrantee that at least one unit will have their faith powers each turn, instead of relying on fiddly resource management to ensure you have enough Faith Points for that all-important Aspira Save.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Deadshot wrote:I would have to say Sisters of Battles. as an atheist I personally find the fanatism of the IoM rather annoying but with the IG it is sort of understandable. They have Commissars who say "Believe or die" and SM are less worship, than say, high respect. But Sisters just go on and on and on and deny their God-given rights (no pun intended) to happiness or pleasure.

And also, female space marines. No.

Sisters are not female space marines.
Power Armour, and bolters. That's the Space marine gear. In my eyes that makes them girl-marines

On the other hand, I REALLY object to you saying that the Sisters shouldn't exist as an army
I said nothing of the sort. They can be an army, I'll play them, I'll tolerate them, I just don't like the fanaticism.

because you personally don't believe in invisible friends.
Although I am atheist I somehow excel at Religious studies, so I am going to tell you that will come across as offensive to some people, or mabe none, but you're better off not talking/writing like that. I personally don't really mind,m just a heads-up..
Anyway, I wouldn't say that. I would say I don't believe in endless questions. I don't like the endless, "Chicken or egg?" cycles of "Who made the universe?" "God/ whatever non-christian/jewish deity you believe in" "Who made him?" cycles. I find it illogical and irrational to believe in some all-powerful being who knows, determines and can do anything and everything. I find that as an excuse for people to pass off bad things and bad luck to someone else, and there are those who do use God as a scapegoat, but I appreciate there are many who truly believe in a deity.

Anyway, talking this topic is a slippery slope. Retaliate if you wish, I doubt I will reply, but just to clarify you're first two points are incorrect in every way.

I'm not a monotheist either, and I love the Sisters' devotion and the fact that they fight for something greater.

Which is what I hate about them. They say they fight for the Emperor, but like in religion how some people say they killed because Jesus said so, an example, they may be lying to themselves to justify their own bloodlut/enjoyment of it. I appreciate there are some who genuinely do fight for the Emperor, but I believe not many.

Besides, you're basically cheapening the faith of every Imperial Guardsman in the game. You really think that your standard Guardsman doesn't believe in the god-emperor? No, more than that, you're saying that belief at gunpoint is OK?!
Not at all. Sure they believe in him, maybe not as fanatically as Sisters, but sure. Possibly, prabably even, some don't. However, EVERYONE will believe in whatever you tell them to when you hold a gun at their head, and they know you have been trained to, and will gladly, execute you for looking at them funny.


Besides, the Sisters deny themselves most pleasures because they don't want to invite freaking Slaaneshi daemons in for a snack. They have a fething good reason to do the whole self-denial bit, and they're stronger for it!

Others manage to get by without summoning daemonettes. Besides, even those who vow to deny themselves still giv in, as seen in recent years involving the catholic church. That is not meant to come across as nasty or offenssive, just making a point. While we don't read about it or hear of it, asthis is a game designed for 12yr olds+ I am sure they are not all completely abstinate.


Anyway, slippery slope and all that. Just wanted to point out that I did not say they shouldn't exist and look what happened! Good grief!

Chaos Space Marines. I say that as a CSM player.

The most recent codex is nothing but a pile of gak. Mainly because they used to be an army w/ character. They were unique, there were multiple builds & neat little nuances that made them stand out. In 3rd ed (w/ their 3.5 'dex) I could walk around my FLGS & if there were two CSM players, RARELY were they fielding the same builds. The fluff had substance, it was real, you could really dig into it. It was beautiful.

The 4th ed codex changed all that. All the flavor that was put into the 3.5 dex was wiped out we got a lukewarm, bland mishmash of bad rules and horrible fluff. You know what was the 'pinnacle' of fluff in that book? Huron Blackheart, a character that NO ONE has ever taken (not in my experience anyway) stole a ship from the SW. Yippie. The HH was almost just a passing thought & it felt like they were pushing the idea of 'good Marines gone bad' scenario on you. Gone were the righteous rantings of the Word Bearers, the infiltrating cultist cultivating Alpha Legion. The mighty siege machines of the Iron Warriors were silenced & the terror and ambushes of the Night Lords were nothing but fond memories. Instead we got all Cult Marines as troops, vanilla CSM could take Icons to pay allegiance to a particular God, but if the bearer of the Icon died, the rest of the unit suddenly forgot who they payed homage to. Then when it all came down it, Plague Marines were really the best option. Berzerkers are great assault troops to be sure, but for flat objective holding, there wasn't a unit that could match the PM's. TS's have their place (my favored legion) but are overpriced and AP3, until the recent 6th ed drop, just wasn't that great - you couldn't walk 6" in any direction & not find 4+ cover. Don't even get me started on NM's.

Special Characters are good, though most are terribly overpriced & badly thought out. Abbadon is a beast (as he rightly should be) as is Kharn, but Ahriman & Typhus are stupidly overpriced - and almost backwards. Generic Lords & Sorcs had their place - until you looked @ Daemon Princes. There was no reason NOT to take them. You didn't need lords of specific marks to unlock your cult troops anymore, so why not take a powerhouse melee psyker that was EW?? Then you look @ the Psychic powers & realize that Lash of Submission is the greatest power ever - pass your psy-test & unless it's blocked you just get to move that unit. It was a no brainer.

The elites section of the 'dex is pretty un-impressive; Dreadnaughts are just as dangerous to you as your enemy, Possessed just suck, you don't know what their battlefield role is until you put them on the table , terminators start good, but get expensive QUICK. Really, the only worthwhile option was melta/plasma-spam Chosen. Usually outflanking in a Rhino. Similar sentiments can be said for the Heavy Support section as well - the only real choice is Obliterators. While being a bit on the pricey side, they are w/o a doubt the most adaptable unit in the game. There is literally nothing they can't effectively attack & are deadly @ pretty much all range bands. So, yet another auto-take. Chaos Land Raiders, while not being as expensive as their Imperial counterparts, aren't nearly as useful. They only have one variant & nothing even like PotMS. Pass. Fast Attack is another let down. "Look, we have Chaos Assault Marines & Chaos Bikes. Absolutely the same as their Imperial counterparts! Just w/ different jump packs & spikes on the axles respectively!" Though I will grant I do love the look of the Raptors.

So, realistically, after everything boils down, you have an army list consisting of 2x Lash Princes, maybe a unit of Chosen, 3+ units of Plague Marines w/ w/e special weapon necessary & 6+ Obliterators. Sometimes you might see triple vindi-spam or occasionally triple Defilers. Granted, sometimes those variants are pretty deadly depending on the opponent, but rarely do I see anyone @ my FLGS w/ anything other than the first 'list' I talked about. Basically as far as possible from a fluffy list, but necessary if you wanted to have any real hope of winning as the edition wore on.

It is a slap in the face to any real CSM player & GW should be ashamed of themselves for allowing that abortion of a codex to have ever seen the light of day.

~Vryce

 Deadshot wrote:
Power Armour, and bolters. That's the Space marine gear. In my eyes that makes them girl-marines

Then maybe you should get your eyes checked.

 Deadshot wrote:
Although I am atheist I somehow excel at Religious studies

 Deadshot wrote:
Which is what I hate about them. They say they fight for the Emperor, but like in religion how some people say they killed because Jesus said so, an example, they may be lying to themselves to justify their own bloodlut/enjoyment of it. I appreciate there are some who genuinely do fight for the Emperor, but I believe not many.

You're missing the point entirely. In 40K, the God Emperor is not someone you 'believe' in. He's real. He has an address, you can go visit him, and he impacts the universe constantly in meaningful, measurable ways. He's really really real, and you'd better do what he says.

 Kaldor wrote:


You're missing the point entirely. In 40K, the God Emperor is not someone you 'believe' in. He's real. He has an address, you can go visit him, and he impacts the universe constantly in meaningful, measurable ways. He's really really real, and you'd better do what he says.

I guess if visiting a rotten corpse on a throne is 'real' and meaningful than yes. But as we all know, the only true powers are the gods of chaos.

 Eidolon wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


You're missing the point entirely. In 40K, the God Emperor is not someone you 'believe' in. He's real. He has an address, you can go visit him, and he impacts the universe constantly in meaningful, measurable ways. He's really really real, and you'd better do what he says.

I guess if visiting a rotten corpse on a throne is 'real' and meaningful than yes. But as we all know, the only true powers are the gods of chaos.

There's also the remaining Eldar Gods, and a few other minor gods out there.

 Eidolon wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


You're missing the point entirely. In 40K, the God Emperor is not someone you 'believe' in. He's real. He has an address, you can go visit him, and he impacts the universe constantly in meaningful, measurable ways. He's really really real, and you'd better do what he says.

I guess if visiting a rotten corpse on a throne is 'real' and meaningful than yes. But as we all know, the only true powers are the gods of chaos.

I cast my vote on Tau, there troop choices are just too squishy and don't get any job done besides camping behind buildings or being used as meatshields for the rest.
The suits and vehicles... To me honestly look ridiculous! The army's design doesn't fit together, they switch from the blocky look of broadsides and crisis suits to round slick vehicles and steath suits... There whole weapons range are mediocre at best (besides the railgun that never hits). Also from whats already been said this army was meant for Mech lovers so they would stop playing battletech and the like. And another note on wargear as a reacurring fact in all older codexes everything is over costed... The last note i have on this little rant of mine is (Matt Ward is already ruining Tau via the Rulebook.... Ultramarines going to protect Tau because apparently they are going to save us from Chaos...) Wow just wow....

 Riddick40k wrote:
The last note i have on this little rant of mine is (Matt Ward is already ruining Tau via the Rulebook.... Ultramarines going to protect Tau because apparently they are going to save us from Chaos...) Wow just wow....

Umm... this was a rumour posted months ago before 6th was released, and it turns out the guy was just talking out of his @$$. Nowhere in any of the GW material I have read has there been any reference to this.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Eidolon wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


You're missing the point entirely. In 40K, the God Emperor is not someone you 'believe' in. He's real. He has an address, you can go visit him, and he impacts the universe constantly in meaningful, measurable ways. He's really really real, and you'd better do what he says.

I guess if visiting a rotten corpse on a throne is 'real' and meaningful than yes. But as we all know, the only true powers are the gods of chaos.

There's also the remaining Eldar Gods, and a few other minor gods out there.

Those dont count, and only exist because the ruinous powers allow them to continue their petty existence in order to foster hope against the inevitable. I, for one, am very excited about the new chaos book.

RegalPhantom wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:
The last note i have on this little rant of mine is (Matt Ward is already ruining Tau via the Rulebook.... Ultramarines going to protect Tau because apparently they are going to save us from Chaos...) Wow just wow....

Umm... this was a rumour posted months ago before 6th was released, and it turns out the guy was just talking out of his @$$. Nowhere in any of the GW material I have read has there been any reference to this.

Nah, its legit, you can read all about it in white dwarf 154

Tau. I just want to curbstop those little blue things to the ground.

Tau because I really hate the aesthetic of them, also cause half my gaming group run them and they really are not that competitive but annoying with 3+ cover saves on vehicles everywhere.