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I suppose the Palatine Blades will have to be a 'counts as' Phoenix Guard.... for now!

 Alpharius wrote:
I suppose the Palatine Blades will have to be a 'counts as' Phoenix Guard.... for now!

Seriously have the FW guys actually read the HH Books?

HH books are Blacklibrary fiction. Forgeworld can create their own vision of the Heresy, they don't have to religiously follow what some BL author has decided to write. It is GW fluff, there can be many truths.

That is too much for any one model however good it may be.

The book gets an OK however.

Regarding the Phoenix Guard, to be fair they're not really necessary given the available options for the Legion Command Squad; Artificer Armour by default and the option to upgrade any member of the squad with Combat Shields, Heavy Chainswords, Charnabal Sabre's, Power Weapons, Power Fists, Lightning Claws, Plasma Pistols, Combi-bolters, and Volkite Chargers, and they also have the Chosen Warrior special rule, come with the Legion Standard, and are WS5 with 2 attacks.

As a bonus, if you choose to go with a Legion Praetor rather than Fulgrim, they can take matching upgrades; jump packs, bikes, or jetbikes.

So yeah, not really any need to counts-as the Palatine Blades as Phoenix Guard when you can just take a Legion Command Squad with the appropriate weapons, then model them according to the fluff. The Legion list really is very well thought out, and can serve every Legion; the special unit each Legion got with their Special Characters is just gravy.

Another thing I should mention is that there is a special kind of ‘not void shield’ in the armoury for this book. Interestingly it mentions that it’s used on two things.

A hover tank.

Knights.

The interesting things about this are that they might be doing that hover tank we all know and love and they explicitly refer to Knights as heavy walkers.

Wow! Looking at that Blog, I'm super stoked for those Autocannons and Heavy Bolters. Holy crap!

Finally got my copy of this book and wow...

Okay already slated for 3 separate lists/modeling projects, 3rd co Luna Wolves, 1st co Imperial Fists, and 5th co Blood Angels.

Anyone else enjoying the myriad of options on the legion praetor. Charnabal Sabers, volkite weaponry, Archaeotech pistols, Paragon Blades, boarding sheilds. Even without useing the specific 4 legions you can design any kind of force that you want in addition to the rites of war giving you the options of jump armies, armoured spearhead, orbital strike and veteran troops.

I like how they designed the Paragon blade to be like a space wolf frost blade, y'know could be a power weapon, exotic chain weapon or even something mundane crafted to perfection. Though it was probably just a design idea so they could give Loken a chainsword and make him worthwhile.

Anyone else with the book notice that Abaddon's equiped with a twin linked bolter and power fist rather than a sword? Could've sworn that his games day proposed model had him with a fist/claw and a sword.

I mostly happy with the way the book handles the secondary HQs like librarians, masters of the forge, etc. As well as all the tech they've brought in or back like suspensor webs, grav weapons, plasma blasters and all other sorts.

I can see the issues with the book's balance as compared to other codices but I can already see plenty of answers. This book is gonna have serious problems vs horde orks, mass fliers, and initiative 11 (aka gunline). Hand to hand this book is gonna give 2nd thoughts to standard grey hunters but will yield to 30-40 orks. Cataphractii are a beast, 2+/4+ with power weapon at initiative 4 is more than enough to scare alot of forces, and the fact that even when chosen as elites they count as scoring, terminators are going to be plenty nasty but I figure that was counted on when they designed new termies to sell.

All in all rules wise the book looks to be pretty balanced. Fluff wise this book was worth what I paid.

All that said. When I got the package it looked like someone jumped up and down on the box. Obvious gouge on the cover, weird paint like marking on a page, copy of aeronautica's cover looks like someone kicked the edge, and angron has plenty of little detail broken off and his small box was partly smashed.

I figure I'm calling FW tomorrow and getting replacements.

 carabine wrote:
I like how they designed the Paragon blade to be like a space wolf frost blade, y'know could be a power weapon, exotic chain weapon or even something mundane crafted to perfection. Though it was probably just a design idea so they could give Loken a chainsword and make him worthwhile.

Loken uses a broadsword in the books, not a chainsword. They're breaking the vaunted canon adherence with the BL books already?

The Loken model was a place-holder. Not the final mini. Let’s all calm down.

 mwnciboo wrote:
^ What? I cannot believe this. There must be Phoenix Guard, otherwise what are my Morlock Iron Hands gonna fight?

Betrayal is just Istvaan III, Morlocks and Phoenix Guard went at it on Istvaan V. Might be a few books to go, right?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Loken model was a place-holder. Not the final mini. Let’s all calm down.

But we weren't talking about the mini diarama. We were talking about paragon weapon rules and Loken having a chainsword. Unless his reference to Loken having a chainsword is based on that diarama, in which case I see where the misunderstanding comes from.

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Loken model was a place-holder. Not the final mini. Let’s all calm down.

But we weren't talking about the mini diarama. We were talking about paragon weapon rules and Loken having a chainsword. Unless his reference to Loken having a chainsword is based on that diarama, in which case I see where the misunderstanding comes from.

To be fair, while he did use a broadsword for the most part, there were several occasions in the books where he did use a Chainsword. While it would have been more fitting for him to be equipped with a broadsword, it's not completely unreasonable for the authors to have given him a Chainsword.

 Alpharius wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
^ What? I cannot believe this. There must be Phoenix Guard, otherwise what are my Morlock Iron Hands gonna fight?

Phoenix Guard HAVE to be in there - no way they aren't!

I find it odd that they are missing as well, but I guess FW cannot give us everything ... otherwise we have to wait 20 years for all Primarchs and other stuff to be released ...

 dracpanzer wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
^ What? I cannot believe this. There must be Phoenix Guard, otherwise what are my Morlock Iron Hands gonna fight?

Betrayal is just Istvaan III, Morlocks and Phoenix Guard went at it on Istvaan V. Might be a few books to go, right?

I don't think they will release addin's given that I've just read the book last night, it's very Definitive with the force lists of the Legions featured, I don't think they will add more Emperors Children Units in the next books as they aren't featured in the force Org lists at the back of the Book. There is still a lot of ground to cover with the other Legions.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Another thing I should mention is that there is a special kind of ‘not void shield’ in the armoury for this book. Interestingly it mentions that it’s used on two things.

A hover tank.

Knights.

The interesting things about this are that they might be doing that hover tank we all know and love and they explicitly refer to Knights as heavy walkers.

Seriously do want.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Loken model was a place-holder. Not the final mini. Let’s all calm down.

But we weren't talking about the mini diarama. We were talking about paragon weapon rules and Loken having a chainsword. Unless his reference to Loken having a chainsword is based on that diarama, in which case I see where the misunderstanding comes from.

To be fair, while he did use a broadsword for the most part, there were several occasions in the books where he did use a Chainsword. While it would have been more fitting for him to be equipped with a broadsword, it's not completely unreasonable for the authors to have given him a Chainsword.

Its just a misunderstanding on my part.

Regardless of what Loken primarily used in the books, a paragon blade has an extremely broad description just like a frost weapon. That's the point, they found an idea that slips in and fills all the ideas without enraging others.

That said I'm still pretty sure he was using a chain sword in Horus Rising. Though I am known to be wrong from time to time and I did leave my copy in Afghanistan.

About the Phoenix guard though. I can't remember reading anything major about them that made them particularly unique. Justaerin Terminator squads are not that different and the Deathshroud are just a terminator squad that carries scythes and starts at a unit size of 2.

Phoenix guard is more just a name for Fulgrim's bodyguard. Simple to portray them as a command squad, WS 5, Power weapons, combat shields, artificer armour, two attacks base. Or perhaps they were a named squad of Palatine Blades instead. Considering how comprehensive this book is I think that the FW guys simply felt that the Phoenix Guard were simply not unique enough to deserve their own entry when plenty of other options to portray them existed. The Justaerin are getting their own entry probably more because they know exactly how popular the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are and that they'll sell through the roof.

I'm still curious about the fact that FW decided not to do character profiles for a dozen characters (seriously only a dozen pages in this book) when they've stated that they like to do plenty of characters to create a backlog to come back to later. This looks like it means we'll never see the rest of the Mournival and probably won't see rules for Lucius (far as I remember he had no further great part in the events to come). Garro and Qruze could still be portrayed later on as agents of the Sigilite but I was hoping to see more characters in general.

Also anyone else notice that this Section Leader Crysos Morturg of the Death Guard is described as a "Black Shield" and survivor of Istvaan III? He's the POV for the first hand accounts of the battle and the fluff describes information as being debriefed from sources. Survivors of Istvaan III creates whole new ideas for penitent chapters and characters.

They don't need to make rules for every character ever mentioned in the books if the basic HQ customisation is flexible enough. You can just equip your stock HQs accordingly and call them whatever you want.

Loken only uses a Chainsword.
Show me one reference with pg where he has a power sword.
Phoenix Guard were Fulgrims bodyguard not a line unit.
And like said you can make them out of Capt and honor guard

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff?page=2

whole bunch of pads, brass bits etc etc now up.

 carabine wrote:

About the Phoenix guard though. I can't remember reading anything major about them that made them particularly unique. Justaerin Terminator squads are not that different and the Deathshroud are just a terminator squad that carries scythes and starts at a unit size of 2.

Phoenix guard is more just a name for Fulgrim's bodyguard. Simple to portray them as a command squad, WS 5, Power weapons, combat shields, artificer armour, two attacks base. Or perhaps they were a named squad of Palatine Blades instead. Considering how comprehensive this book is I think that the FW guys simply felt that the Phoenix Guard were simply not unique enough to deserve their own entry when plenty of other options to portray them existed. The Justaerin are getting their own entry probably more because they know exactly how popular the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are and that they'll sell through the roof.

I'm still curious about the fact that FW decided not to do character profiles for a dozen characters (seriously only a dozen pages in this book) when they've stated that they like to do plenty of characters to create a backlog to come back to later. This looks like it means we'll never see the rest of the Mournival and probably won't see rules for Lucius (far as I remember he had no further great part in the events to come). Garro and Qruze could still be portrayed later on as agents of the Sigilite but I was hoping to see more characters in general.

Also anyone else notice that this Section Leader Crysos Morturg of the Death Guard is described as a "Black Shield" and survivor of Istvaan III? He's the POV for the first hand accounts of the battle and the fluff describes information as being debriefed from sources. Survivors of Istvaan III creates whole new ideas for penitent chapters and characters.

Of course the Phoenix Guard is just another name for the bodyguard of Fulgrim, but there are people as myself who do not play the game but just want to paint the models. So I want special models for Phoenix Guard, Morlocks, Deathshroud etc. I am pretty excited about the FW plans regarding HH, but as you said they seem to leave out quite a bit. I thought the Mournival is a must, but only Loken is mentioned in the first book.

But they finally release Primarchs, so who am I to complain by asking to release every special character/unit mentioned in the Black Library HH series ...

They got the important half of the Mournival though. And we might still see Little Horus. Let's face it though. Torumund (or whatever) wasn't exactly special. So there really isnt' a need for his model.

Yeah but for the sake of completion you really should have all the mentioned units.

We did a 30k campaign in Jan this year, and we used the BOLS

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2007/09/warhammer-30000-age-of-heresy-v2.html

They had all the great well known Characters, like Nathaniel Garro, Eidolon, Saul Tavitz etc for all the Legions, even my Beloved Iron Hands got the Ace Gabriel Santar. This is a fan made ruleset, yet Forge World have all these resources and yet ignore some of the best characters and plot lines.

The cynical side of me says that there are too many characters for them to do, so they have prioritised troop units as they can shift these by volume rather than individual characters which you would probably only buy one of.

The Betrayal Book is a lovely designed thing, it really is a beautiful piece of artwork.

 Crimson wrote:
HH books are Blacklibrary fiction. Forgeworld can create their own vision of the Heresy, they don't have to religiously follow what some BL author has decided to write. It is GW fluff, there can be many truths.

FW likes to focus on the specifics of battles like a military history book whereas the HH books usually focus on characters/dialog. The two could actually compliment each other quite well, as the battle specifics in HH books are minimal. As long as they stick to the basic story and avoid why the Primarchs etc went traitor, I don't see why FW would have to go through any particular trouble contradicting the HH series.

 mwnciboo wrote:

They had all the great well known Characters, like Nathaniel Garro, Eidolon, Saul Tavitz etc for all the Legions, even my Beloved Iron Hands got the Ace Gabriel Santar. This is a fan made ruleset, yet Forge World have all these resources and yet ignore some of the best characters and plot lines.

The cynical side of me says that there are too many characters for them to do, so they have prioritised troop units as they can shift these by volume rather than individual characters which you would probably only buy one of.

I do not understand why you need independent character rules for all these people. Stock HQs are usually quite customisable, so you already have ways to represent these characters. Only people who absolutely need their own rules are the Primarchs and the Emperor, as you obviously can't use normal HQs to represent them.

I much rather have rules for new units and vehicles, than pages after pages of slightly different characters with fixed gear.

And didn't they say that they wouldn't be doing rules for every character in the HH book series? And really, do we need all of them?

We need all 18 Primarchs, that's the thing many have been waiting for this series. The Emperor might be impossible to put on tabletop though, but if you want to do the final battle on the Vengeful Spirit he'd be a must.

Other then that, I'd be content with the Mournival, Garro, Lucius, Kharn, Eidolon, Valdor, Typhus, Ahriman, Erebus, Sigismund, maybe Raldoron and Bjorn. Ka'Bandha should probably show up too.

Though I suppose that's still a lot...

Give me the rest of the Mournival, Garro, Lucius, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Erebus, Kor Phaeron, Sigismund, and the Assassins from Nemesis, and I'll be happy.

My guess is we'll have books dedicated each to the Drop Site Massacre, Calth, Signus Prime, Prospero, and Terra (Hell Terra could be multi-volume). So yeah they should all fit in there....

There are so many characters though, I'm sure they won't do them all - Othere Wyrdmake etc etc.