Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What's the lowest number of points that would still allow at least one legal army for every current codex? 300? 250?

I figure high point HQs + minimum troop models per unit create a problem for most races.

250 for vanilla SM (HQ, no gear+2 scout squads)

225 for BT (naked castellan+two 5 man crusader squads)

not sure about most other codices

190 for Eldar (naked Autarch, two 5 man Dire Avenger squads).

110 for Dark Eldar (naked Haemonculus, two 3 man Wrack squads).

220 for Necrons (naked Overlord, two 5 man Warrior squads).

220 for Space Wolves (naked Wolf Guard Battle Leader, two 5 man Grey Hunter or Blood Claw packs).

115 for Orks iirc (Naked Mek, 2 x 10 Gretchin with required Runtherd)

140 for Nids (Naked Prime and 2 x 3 Ripper Swarms)

190 for Imperial Guard (Company Command Squad with no upgrades+2 Squads of Veteran with no upgrades)

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
190 for Imperial Guard (Company Command Squad with no upgrades+2 Squads of Veteran with no upgrades)

actually you are wrong.

not to be rude.

its been FAQ'd and quoted by events team at warhammer world that even though codex states a tech-priest doesn't take a slot in hq allowance it can still be used as you're minimal hq choice.

weird huh?

so 185... LOL

Grey Knights: 118 points (Coteaz, 2 x 3 warrior acolytes)

Sweetie Man wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
190 for Imperial Guard (Company Command Squad with no upgrades+2 Squads of Veteran with no upgrades)

actually you are wrong.

not to be rude.

its been FAQ'd and quoted by events team at warhammer world that even though codex states a tech-priest doesn't take a slot in hq allowance it can still be used as you're minimal hq choice.

weird huh?

so 185... LOL

Not to be rude, but actually, you are wrong. Straight from the 6th Edition IG FAQ v1.1:
Can Ministoruim Priests or Techpriest Enginseers be taken as the mandatory HQ choice?
No. You will need to take another model to be your Warlord.

Edit: Fixed grammar.

 spectreoneone wrote:

Sweetie Man wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
190 for Imperial Guard (Company Command Squad with no upgrades+2 Squads of Veteran with no upgrades)

actually you are wrong.

not to be rude.

its been FAQ'd and quoted by events team at warhammer world that even though codex states a tech-priest doesn't take a slot in hq allowance it can still be used as you're minimal hq choice.

weird huh?

so 185... LOL

Not to be rude, but actually, you are wrong. Straight from the 6th Edition IG FAQ v1.1:

Can Ministoruim Priests or Techpriest Enginseers be taken as the mandatory HQ choice?
No. You will need to take another model to be your Warlord.

Edit: Fixed grammar.

Whaaaaaaat?????????

no way i ohnistly just talked to nick bayton from the events team and i was informed you are allowed!
sorry was going on his authority seeming as its well... Nick Bayton lol
yeh sorry hmmmm....

For Tau: 179

Shas'el w/ TL Flamer + BSF

2 x 6 Fire Warriors

cowbell wrote:
What's the lowest number of points that would still allow at least one legal army for every current codex? 300? 250?

I figure high point HQs + minimum troop models per unit create a problem for most races.

If you are using unmodifed FOC. The lowest practical point choice is 250. The lowest balanced point level across all codex is probably around 500. I worked this out a while back setting up a "Recruiting League".

Any particular reason you looking for this information?

barnowl wrote:
The lowest practical point choice is 250. The lowest balanced point level across all codex is probably around 500.

That's a good distinction to make; my local playgroup was debating whether my Necron army was consistently winning against Space Wolves due to player skill level, army roster, luck, or the possibility that some races are just stronger than others at certain army point values, especially due to the fact that most people play around 1500 points, which means Games Workshop has no incentive to try to balance 250 point gameplay, or even 500 point gamesplay.

I'm curious about the absolute minimum army point meta just for theory, as well as its relation to different 40K metagames. I figured if it was possible to play 40K at 500 points, it would be possible to play at even lower points, and that analyzing the metagame at that lowest level would reveal a lot of basic strategy information about 40K in general.

For example, I was relating a double Tervigon 500 point Tyranid army to a Games Workshop employee, and he cautioned that even just one Tervigon is OP at 500 points, let alone two.

Somewhere on DakkaDakka, it was revealed that 3 Annihilation Barges are quite possible legally in a 500 point Necron roster, as well as 3 Ravagers in a 500 point Dark Eldar army. Apparently these vehicles are quite good at 500 points but are a bad choice for new players, who won't learn if they win all the time, nor will they understand a proper infantry-vehicle ratio and how to support one unit with another.

Curious like a fox!

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
Grey Knights: 118 points (Coteaz, 2 x 3 warrior acolytes)

thats 124pts

cowbell wrote:

barnowl wrote:
The lowest practical point choice is 250. The lowest balanced point level across all codex is probably around 500.

That's a good distinction to make; my local playgroup was debating whether my Necron army was consistently winning against Space Wolves due to player skill level, army roster, luck, or the possibility that some races are just stronger than others at certain army point values, especially due to the fact that most people play around 1500 points, which means Games Workshop has no incentive to try to balance 250 point gameplay, or even 500 point gamesplay.

I'm curious about the absolute minimum army point meta just for theory, as well as its relation to different 40K metagames. I figured if it was possible to play 40K at 500 points, it would be possible to play at even lower points, and that analyzing the metagame at that lowest level would reveal a lot of basic strategy information about 40K in general.

For example, I was relating a double Tervigon 500 point Tyranid army to a Games Workshop employee, and he cautioned that even just one Tervigon is OP at 500 points, let alone two.

Somewhere on DakkaDakka, it was revealed that 3 Annihilation Barges are quite possible legally in a 500 point Necron roster, as well as 3 Ravagers in a 500 point Dark Eldar army. Apparently these vehicles are quite good at 500 points but are a bad choice for new players, who won't learn if they win all the time, nor will they understand a proper infantry-vehicle ratio and how to support one unit with another.

Curious like a fox!

In theory it should be balanced at 250. But there are too many ways to mini max it that level for some armies. Even at 500 points you find people doing things like GK Land Raider purifier list.

barnowl wrote:
In theory it should be balanced at 250. But there are too many ways to mini max it that level for some armies. Even at 500 points you find people doing things like GK Land Raider purifier list.

By which theory should 40K be balanced at 250 points?

* It's hard to balance a low point strategy game while promoting diverse play styles. We see this in Magic: The Gathering, with the change a while back from 40 card decks to 60+ card decks in the Standard format, and now in the Commander format with singleton, 100 card decks.

* Business logic dictates that the game developer focus most of his effort on the game as played at the current meta. Why should Games Workshop work to balance at 250 points when most people play at 1500+ points? Even if 40K were conceived as a balanced 250 point game, today no one plays at 250 points. To bother balancing that meta would be false economics.

That is why Games Workshop hawks Space Marines above all other races. People buy and play Space Marines more than any other race: If Games Workshop tweaked xenos to make them more popular, the increase in sales would pale in comparison to how many Spaces Marines continue to be sold. Updating a xeno codex a day sooner than you have to is false economics.

Which sucks, because I'm in the 1% of customers who love xenos and think Space Marines are terribly boring.

500 points isn't meaningfully balanced. I don't think the game is really balanced at all until 1500 points, and even then that's a little low. Generally speaking, the lower the points value, the more viable gimmick lists are, as a balanced list has trouble including the tools it needs to fight all of the potential gimmicks. In larger point games, though, you can bring a balanced core that still has the tools you need to deal with gimmick armies.

cowbell wrote:

barnowl wrote:
In theory it should be balanced at 250. But there are too many ways to mini max it that level for some armies. Even at 500 points you find people doing things like GK Land Raider purifier list.

By which theory should 40K be balanced at 250 points?

* It's hard to balance a low point strategy game while promoting diverse play styles. We see this in Magic: The Gathering, with the change a while back from 40 card decks to 60+ card decks in the Standard format, and now in the Commander format with singleton, 100 card decks.

* Business logic dictates that the game developer focus most of his effort on the game as played at the current meta. Why should Games Workshop work to balance at 250 points when most people play at 1500+ points? Even if 40K were conceived as a balanced 250 point game, today no one plays at 250 points. To bother balancing that meta would be false economics.

That is why Games Workshop hawks Space Marines above all other races. People buy and play Space Marines more than any other race: If Games Workshop tweaked xenos to make them more popular, the increase in sales would pale in comparison to how many Spaces Marines continue to be sold. Updating a xeno codex a day sooner than you have to is false economics.

Which sucks, because I'm in the 1% of customers who love xenos and think Space Marines are terribly boring.

The theory being that the point costs are supposed to represent a relative power regardless of codexes. So based on points a 10 point FW and two 5 point termigaunts should be equally effective. If every one is intentionally building diverse balanced play lists the game stays balanced even at 250 points. However, human nature being what it is and the utter fail of point cost equivalency across the codexes it is unlikely to actually work out that way in practice. In 2000+ point games the sheer number of points in play beings to dilute the point cost imbalance and restricted FOC's begin to force more diverse lists.

As to one plays 250-500 point games is not true. One of our largest and most successful local tournaments is the 500 Pointer. As the name suggests it is a 500 point tournament with standard FOC. We normally play the games on a 4x4 table and about a 60min time limit. Then there is also the Adapticon Combat Missions tournament which is around 250 points with modified FOC, if I remember correctly.

The issue isn't point costs. Point costs are more or less balanced. The issue is ridiculous gimmick armies.

In 500 points, you can potentially take a Land Raider Redeemer, which frankly many armies can't deal with at all. At low points values, the game is open to way too many rock/paper/scissors situations, since a balanced list can't really "cover all the bases" in the way that higher level games allow.

That's why you go by combat patrol rules so you cant take anything over armor 12 on any sides and HQ is not mandatory.

 necronuser wrote:
That's why you go by combat patrol rules so you cant take anything over armor 12 on any sides and HQ is not mandatory.

Yeah. Low point games can be fun, but you typically have to modify the rules to achieve balance-- and even then there are often some dodgy combos out there.

Ya kingsley when i first started playing i always lost so i ran a really troll 400 point list that had two flyers 4 scarabs and a squad of warriors in a night scythe.
The other flyer was a doom scythe.