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 Marik Law wrote:

AHRIMAN
He lost quite a bit of potency since last edition. I'd like to see him be able to have all of the Tzeentch powers by default and then get 4 Powers from the other listed Disciplines. To me he'd be well worth his points cost then.

DIsagree. He is better.

Tzeentch vs. other disciplines is just something we have to deal with. Since you're a long-time CSM player, you'll notice how all of his rules make him similar to his Codex: Chaos incarnation.... minus the toughness 5 and all that.

I am quite happy with him now. He doesn't need any changes..

 Brometheus wrote:

 Marik Law wrote:

AHRIMAN
He lost quite a bit of potency since last edition. I'd like to see him be able to have all of the Tzeentch powers by default and then get 4 Powers from the other listed Disciplines. To me he'd be well worth his points cost then.

DIsagree. He is better.

Tzeentch vs. other disciplines is just something we have to deal with. Since you're a long-time CSM player, you'll notice how all of his rules make him similar to his Codex: Chaos incarnation.... minus the toughness 5 and all that.

I am quite happy with him now. He doesn't need any changes..

Sorry, I simply don't agree with you. On par or worse than his previous incarnations? Debatable. Better? Most certainly not. The powers he had access to before were far better and he had more of them, now he's pretty much been reduced to only being used in Assault armies as a Doombolt Spammer. Being reduced down to being forced to a single role in an army is not my idea of "better". If he had access to Divination then I'd have to agree with you that he'd be better than previous incarnation, but with the powers he has access to he's simply on-par with, if not worse, and not an overly fantastic unit unless you plan on using an Assault-heavy army.

I wrote this codex because I was disenfranchised with the Khornate portion of the 6th edition book. Brb losing +1 attack all of the time, everything's still the same price. Only use for Khorne now is an HQ with the Axe of Blinding Fury, feelsbadman


http://www.scribd.com/doc/110927618/Legions-of-Khorne

How is he a doombolt spammer?

This is not the place for me to argue with your opinion of Ahriman, but I play a tiny violin for anyone thinking that he "got reduced"

Ahriman suffers from having to roll for his powers. Currently playing with psykers at all means hoping you get abilities that are useful.

Personally i think rolling at the beggining of a game for psyker powers is just stupid. Especially since csm is now only able to randomly generate while the oppossition can take any codex crap they want..

Proposed rule: ability to buy out a psyker power if you dont want to waste points on rolling for it.

That would be nice.

I like how rolling for powers means that you should understand how different combinations work.. That way you have a sense of accomplishment when you make a power set do well during a game.

I hear ya brom, At first i thought rolling was kind of fun, and thoought the same exact way, lets see how i can make this work.... but after my 3rd game, i was already getting annoyed at the thoughts of, "damn i could have had this!" " i would of taken this" or "didnt i have this ____ no wait that was last game." ... maybe i was just frustrated at a bad game or maybe its just the dark gods messing with me though.

I do have to agree that power set has a lot of influence on how the game might go.. I do get spoiled with Invisibility, especially on Aspiring Sorcerers before the new book..

Not sure you understand how spoiled.

Realllllllly spoiled.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
New Chaos is nice, not extraordinary.

Imperial LR variants 9+(counting codex and FW)
Chaos LR variants 2; Codex and Protheus variant...

I think its enough to point out that GW hates Chaos, period.

The Few suggestions i could make.

-Don't touch the DP Stats, they are fine, just add EW and be good, maybe adds another movement option then wings, like Deamonic speed, the Dp then moves like cavalry.
-Move Dark Apostle and Warpsmith to Elites, maybe make them 0-3 units?...
-Give a 2+ save option for HQ's.
-Having something a bit extra to replace Psy powers for Khornate characters, like Martial traits like what the GK Brotherhood Champion can do.
-Had gear specific to Dark Apostle to change his role, to make him a Surgeon for khornate players, and other stuffs for the other Gods, each of those options could change the way the Apostle works, while still conserving his basic purpose
-grants Acces to the "Elite->Troops" of Cult Marines with a Deamon prince, after all a DP is the greatest Champion of the dark Gods.
-LIke many others had said, change the way the Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis works for Named Characters, Named Characters could reroll any of those results, other HQ's are affected as normal, but in the case of a Dark Apotheosis they keep their Artifacts,gears and Weapons, he does not keep his bike or termi armor, if he had a jump pack et count has having wings.
-Add a buyable Veteran Abilities to Elite choice such as Chosen and Termies; tank Hunter, Shrouded/Discretion,Acute Sense etc.
-Give the LR as a dedicated transport to Chosen.
- A Lord/Sorceror can take a bodyguard of Chosen/Termies, they count as one HQ choice.
-Give Possesed grenades and bolt pistols, even if they have mutated, there is no reason that their pistols din't fuse with their arms and that they can't shoot it, the Possesed kit as an arm that shoots a fire beam after all...
-For Mutilators i think we should complelty go as far as possible from the "Mutated terminator" concept, and make it something more like a Cyber-deamonic Archoflagelant/Cyber-Gladiator, with a 3+/5++ save, Fleet, Deamon, DS, and their Weapon Morph, also the unit can take up to 5 models.
-Helbrute should have acces to Hades Autocanon, and Deamon Engines in the dex should be able to be dedicated to a Chaos god, the Crazed rule should also have the line"...it also gets a Crazed token if the helbrut does at least 1 casualty this turn..."
-The Chaos reward list should have Collars of Khorne, wich give the Adamentium Will to the wearer +5pts.
-The Melee wargear list should include Axe of Khorne; Power weapon that adds an extra A for each 6 made to hit, and has long has you make 6's 15pts.
-Zerkers should be 2A base and 2 Models in the squad should have the option to buy a Flamer/Melta OR Power Weapons, Eviscerator, the champion can take a Collar of Khorne for +5pts.
-There should be another rhino variant, Open Topped,only weapons option are Combi-bolter, for 45pts base cost.
-Addition of Dreadclaws, has they are in the IA book, they are good, only changing it as a dedicated transport and not has a FA choice.
-Chaos Bikers could be able to exchange their bikes to a deamonic steed of the approriate Mark/God relation for an appropriate cost.
-Heldrakes should have 2 Hades cannon base, their cost could be upped to 185-190pts base, and they could buy the Baleflamer extra for +15pts.
-LR weapons variants; Hades Autocanon sponsons, Ectoplasma Sponsons,2 Reaper Autocanons in exchange of the TL Heavy Bolters and an option for Frag nades on it like the Crusader.
-Maulerfiend should have WS4 and Rampage, when taking the Mecaflagellum option he counts has having Def and Off nades.
-Defiler cost should be revised to 180pts, and he could exchange all his weapons bare the battle canon for extra CCW for free, and take a Power scourge for +10pts.

The Dedication to the Gods for Deamon Engines could be;

Khorne- The deamon Engine gets Rampage, if the Deamon Engine allready has Rampage he Gets Armorbane rule, if an Heldrake is dedicated to Khorne he makes 1D6+1 Vector Strikes.
Tzeentch-the Deamon Engine rethrow failed to hits of 1.
Nurgle-the Deamon Engine rethrow his It will not die test.
Slaanesh-...don't really know what to do with this one..., reroll charge distance?, count has having Def and OFF nades? or simply +1I?, in the case of the Heldrake Aerial Acrobat?

Also Blades of Destruction should give some extra for Walkers, like +1D6 Hammer of Wrath when assaulting or rethrow of ONE To HIt OR To Wound/Pen Dice per combat turn.

-I'd rather give it 6T and keep it vulnerable to other ID attacks, would put it on par with other MCs. Other than that its fine.

-DA and Warpsmith are fine where they are, if anything I'd dig seeing the DA get a TDA option, not fussed besides.

-They already do, its called Terminator armour (or TDA). While I'd dig getting 'Chaos Armour' back its really not nessasary. I see this becoming standard for MEQ, My guess is they will lose artificer armour.

-We (khorne) get a killer daemon weapon and more USRs than the other cults, its enough. Not to mention we are usually cheaper too. If anything Id like a collar of khorne option for a 4+ Deny the witch. 10-15 points sorted.

-If anything khornate armys would use more DAs considering the amount of challenges we get ourselves into. No need to repurposing him. If you want a chirigeon then ask for one, Id like a cheap 'medic' with a champion statline and bought 0-3 in the HQ or elite section. Maximum of only 3 per detachment and don't count them toward the Force organisation.

-Yeah no, I like the strict limitation on cult unlocks. Make you choose rather than go with the 'better' option.

-Spawnhood is one of only two unwanted effects and the only negative effect, discounting daemonhood on some characters. Heck I was expecting more, things like tenticles and second heads that did bonuses and negatives. It works the way it is, very chaos. If anything, just let the DP keep what a DP can buy and reroll spawn and daemon results for unique characters, or just count them as nothing.

-Buyable veteran abilitys are terrible, there was one good option in 3.5 and raptors HAD to take furious charge to be decent. Terrible idea is terrible. They get enough USR options with marks and icons. And we can give them Veterans of the long war, which is a veteran ability coupled with the beter statline and options.

-They should have had chosen and terminators under one heading like wolf guard. Im a bit disapointed witht hat but I'll live. Then it would have made sense giving them access to a LR, but as they stand I can see why they didn't, its better balance limiting LR availability, much like limiting 2+ armour and such.

-Just buy the elite variation, works the same, not like you don't get a second FOC at 2000 points anyway, which would be around the points Id consider more than 3 elite squads.

-Possessed are fine, they dont need a ranged attack. As for the grenades, direct you complaints to tyranid players, Im sure they will be more than willing to hear how one of your assault units cant get grenades.

-Mutilators just need rampage and they'd be set. It works for them because they are almost always outnumbered in assaults.

-Hellbrutes with a hades would rule, I'd even like twin hades option. Its evil and fun. The rest not so much, doesnt need dedication or daemon engine because vehicvles dont need to be dedicated and hellbrutes are not warpforged like the actual daemon engines. The crazed rules work fine, no need for change.

-5 point 5+ deny the witch in the form of a collar of khorne, sure. I'd pay that. But only for the champion/HQs etc. that way if they die then the 5+ is lost. Would like a 4+ on khorn units more but I'm not complaining about a 5+. Wolf tail talismans work pretty damn well IMO.

-No, just no. I can hardly stand furiosos and their blood talons. The chain axe is enough. Cheap AP4 weapon for the win.

-I like the Rage/counterattack better. Zerkers are cheaper because its situational and they should only be furious on the first round. After that the whole assault settles in.ITs not like they dont have WS5 still, which still puts them head and shoulders above most MEQs in melee.

-Dreadclaws are in the IA book as you said. If you want one get it that way. They are a FA choice because they are not the same as drop pods. They can do more than just drop into the battlefield. I like em the way they are.

-Mhmm, that would be awesome. I like that idea alot actually. the obvious thing to do would be buy mark then buy steed dependant on what mark you have. would be cool.

-2 HACs plus a bale flamer on a vector stiking flyer? no thanks.

-Hades AC LR for the win. I like the idea of adding more LR options, but go with something unique and chaos rather than copy paste marines.

-Nah, the reduced WS is part of being a Daemon engine, rampage isnt that nessasary because then it would not need to be supported like it does now. Teir would be no need to have other units in assault with it thus canceling out the drawback of the lasher tendrils.

-With all the defiler got in this codex Im suprised it does not cost more. The scourge is too good to reduce to 10 points, it can make most HQs equal WS with the defiler then pound them with S10 AP2 death from the Powerfists.

-Dedication of vehicles is unessasary. I'm quite glad they got rid of it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wearelegion wrote:
Ahriman suffers from having to roll for his powers. Currently playing with psykers at all means hoping you get abilities that are useful.

Personally i think rolling at the beggining of a game for psyker powers is just stupid. Especially since csm is now only able to randomly generate while the oppossition can take any codex crap they want..

Proposed rule: ability to buy out a psyker power if you dont want to waste points on rolling for it.

Thats the way ALL psykers seem to be going. Ahriman rules in 6th. Access to a plethora of powers, is now mastery level 4 and can dish out upto four wichfire attacks per turn. yeah no, hes much better.

Again, it seems to be the way they are headed, it wont be long before we are all rolling on tables. Its a cool mechanic because theres only one power in each dicipline you can bank on getting, the primaris power. Makes it so you can't build an army around psychic powers like most wolf players do now, that is stupid.

 Brometheus wrote:
How is he a doombolt spammer?

This is not the place for me to argue with your opinion of Ahriman, but I play a tiny violin for anyone thinking that he "got reduced"

Pretty sure I wasn't arguing my opinion, I just said that I didn't agree with your statement. You shared your opinion and disagreed and I simply stated that I don't agree with what you said, it's not like I said "you're wrong" or anything. How is you disagreeing with me alright and me disagreeing with what you wrote back not alright? Also, if I came off as being argumentative or if I gave off the impression that I was saying "you were wrong" then I do apologize, that was not my intent.

With that said, however, I will admit that he's not the worst special character in the book by any means and is on par with most of them (bar Lucius, the guy is pure awesome in the new Codex), if anything Fabius and Typhus got the short end of the stick in this Codex.

Basically, Wearelegion summed up my thoughts exactly on why I believe Ahriman suffers in the new addition (random chance on psychic powers, not having access to what is so far the best Discipline in the game (Divination), and most of the Tzeentch powers being only "alright"). I find it kind of curious why he can't have Divination, the very description given for Divination just screams followers of Tzeentch to me.

Him (or any new Psykers for that matter) being able to purchase powers would definitely make him much better, though I'd have to say either have that as an option or give him Divination as having access to both would just be overkill.

I wasn't being rude pal, I promise. I was just stopping myself from derailing the thread with my Ahriman praise I think. No insults meant.

I could have worded my statement better.

I don't believe I've seen this yet, but I'm surprised that so few are talking about it.

There is effectively 1x Daemon Weapon in the Codex:
The Black Mace.

I'm sorry, but that is just so freaking lame.
Why in the world did they get rid of the daemon weapons for each mark?
Yes, there's the Axe of Blind Fury but that's restricted to Khorne

I was really, really disappointed to see that.

Similarly, as others have mentioned, I would have *liked* to have seen Mark Specific unit upgrades or choices. I'm glad that cult lists can be made again, but once you leave the troop slot I think there is something to be desired in terms of other choices/options to fit with fluff/feel. For example, perhaps marked predators, Predators w/ MoS could have Fast added to their unit type. MoN +1 to all AV or one side. Tzneetch = 5++ save or +1 to INV save. MoK could add -1 LD to Tank shocks or D3 S6 hits.

While I liked the new units they added, and some of the rules, it really did feel that this book could have been released back in 5e as it was still too close to its predecessor. As a whole, I was extremely underwhelmed by the armory and wargear list.

On the other side of the coin however, I really, really love the Boon table and the whole concept behind it. It's in part why I'm so disappointed in the lack of daemon weapons as options. The whole, always issue challenges, isn't a bad thing IMO. It limits the character from being killed via en masse attacks and allows a different level of customization. I would have liked to have seen Dark Apostles or Warpsmiths either moved to Elite slots (via an option) or not take an HQ slot. Yes at 2k it's moot, but I'm stil a little hung up on old school lists.

I also felt that the changes to possessed and spawn in general were great and much appreciated.

paidinfull wrote:

Why in the world did they get rid of the daemon weapons for each mark?

Because the other marks get psychic powers.

 Marik Law wrote:
if anything Fabius and Typhus got the short end of the stick in this Codex.

I wonder how many have actually given Bile a chance? He essentially makes one unit into better Possessed. People complain about how useless Possessed are, but if you could give Possessed grenades, melta guns, melee weapon upgrades, and pistols, you'd say they were fantastic! He's a tax, but if you do it to a 20 man unit, you are only paying 8 PPM, keeping you 5 PPM cheaper than Possessed. I plan on using my Possessed models as an enhanced CSM squad from now on, and throwing a couple Melta Guns in there. Then you put Fabius with another unit to give you two hardy Fearless squads.

Typhus does feel like a bit of a one-trick pony. Beyond allowing zombies, I don't really see what he brings. I suppose having access to the Nurgle powers while also giving Plague Marines as troops is nice, as normally that would require two HQs.

As for everything else in the thread, I really haven't seen too many ideas that I'd be excited about. A lot of it is just too much. T6/EW Daemon Princes who can ALSO benefit from the Mark (i.e. T7 Princes)? Chosen with Terminator armor... (why not just use Terminators?) More fiddly Thousand Sons rules... Really, all I want to see is something that doesn't make me start my list-building with 2-3 Havocs, 2 Heldrakes, then fill the points with Troops and pick an HQ with either Spawn or Bikes for a bodyguard. List building for CSM has become more boring for me, because of how cheap and effective Havocs have become. Maybe that's a failing of the other Heavy Support though.

This is the first 6th ed codex, there's no need to "Fix" anything yet.

I find a lot of this very interesting. It seems like a lot of what people are saying is that they don't like the Direciton GW is taking in general.

Wanting EW as a purchasable upgrade or on the DP is the opposite of GWs current direction in pretty much every book. Starting At the Beginning of 5th Ed. I'm pretty sure the EW count is as follows

Space Marines have 2 EW Characters
Space Wolves have 1 (2 if you count lone wolves) + purchasable upgrade for 1 character in the army.
Nids have 0
Blood angels have 2? (is Dante eternal anymore, if not it is just sanguinar)
Sisters have 0
Grey Knights have 1
Dark Eldar have 1 (I think)
Necrons have 1(I think might be 0)
and CSM have 1.

Seems par for the course

Daemon Prince Point upgrade- every other FMC or even jump MC at this point costs upwards of 200 points (if you want good options.) Offensively (in CC)the DP is better than almost all of these choices. FMCs are very easy to hide on the table, and get into CC. I think the points on this guy are fairly balanced. Only thing I would have liked is to have the marks for the DP be the same as they are for everything else.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

paidinfull wrote:

Why in the world did they get rid of the daemon weapons for each mark?

Because the other marks get psychic powers.

I'm afraid I don't really buy that.

Purely as an example, look at the last codex.
Each mark had a daemon weapon and all of the current psychic powers were in the codex as well.

From a fluff standpoint you're effectively saying that the Dark Gods wouldn't imbue a weapon of the other Marks? Just doesn't make sense.

Anyways, I appreciate your attempt at an explanation of their decisions, but unfortunately it doesn't alleviate my disappointment.

I am disappoint as well, paidinfull but I have an example that I am using as a solution.

Sorcerer HQs suck in close combat... So trade that pistol out for the Burning Brand.

I've got a dude with the Staff from the plastic Warriors of Chaos sorcerer lord, and that makes a perfect "Burning Brand + Force Stave" combination.

Boom, custom "demon weapon" with Tzeentch flavR.

 Brometheus wrote:
I am disappoint as well, paidinfull but I have an example that I am using as a solution.

Sorcerer HQs suck in close combat... So trade that pistol out for the Burning Brand.

I've got a dude with the Staff from the plastic Warriors of Chaos sorcerer lord, and that makes a perfect "Burning Brand + Force Stave" combination.

Boom, custom "demon weapon" with Tzeentch flavR.

It's close but not entirely the same thing, but that is a cool idea.

I would've liked something for Tzeentch like so:

Warpstave-40 points
R: Melee
Str: +1
AP4
Type: Daemon Weapon, Soul Seeker, Force Weapon, Two-Handed, Soul Blaze

Soul Seeker: You may spend a Warp Charge point to make this weapon and any hits it deals from Soul Blaze AP2

Breng77 wrote:
I find a lot of this very interesting. It seems like a lot of what people are saying is that they don't like the Direciton GW is taking in general.

That's a really interesting point. I will say that from the majority of the units they added, and the addition of the Boon list (a fundamental codex change) I really like the general direction. If I conveyed otherwise that's a failing on my part. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but this codex just feels... "light" to me. From a pure fluff angle, Chaos is supposed to be the greatest foe to the Imperium. From that standpoint the Imperium has Codex: Space Marines, which covers perhaps the largest chapter Ultramarines, while adding in Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Raven Guard, and Salamanders. If it stopped there, I would say the recent Chaos codex was a success. As it stands however, there is also Codex:Space Wolves, Codex; Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Grey Knights, Codex:Black Templars. Suffice it to say, the majority of units across those codex are roughly 80% similar. Still, those few unique units across 5x books make up almost twice as many options. Yes there is Codex Chaos Daemons, but again, there is still a significant disproportion between the two sides.

I don't necessarily want the options to be equal, but I definitely would have liked to see the gap a little narrower.

Similarly, it's like the changes for IG from 3e to 5e. They lost some of the customization to the army, but as a whole I feel that book was incredibly successful (even if Chimeras and Valks/Vens are under costed). The concepts they seemingly focused on for IG are:
boots/bodies on the ground
&
Tanks, tanks, tanks

I honestly feel that the Boon table was as awesome a change as the Doctrines to Orders. The chance of turning a champion into a daemon prince?!? Come on. That's awesome. I'm not sure if everyone realizes this, but the Boon trigger fires off of Shooting and Psychic abilities as well. Where I do feel that they dropped the ball was establishing a big part of what makes Chaos so appealing and that's the customization for the different cults. That is also represented/exemplified in the Wargear list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brometheus wrote:
I am disappoint as well, paidinfull but I have an example that I am using as a solution.

Sorcerer HQs suck in close combat... So trade that pistol out for the Burning Brand.

I've got a dude with the Staff from the plastic Warriors of Chaos sorcerer lord, and that makes a perfect "Burning Brand + Force Stave" combination.

Boom, custom "demon weapon" with Tzeentch flavR.

Cool idea, but I do like Vlad's proposal more.

I liked the D6 Doombolt shots from the last book. Wasn't great, but was really fluffy.
To be fair, a 2+/3++ Sorcerer is 25pts cheaper than its loyalist counterpart. Between the Boon table and being able to add an additional mastery level to be at the same points cost, I'd say they are definitely better than their loyalist counter part.

3 or 4 attacks at S6 > aren't crazy, but the 2+/3++ definitely does the trick

That's a really good idea for a Tzeentch weapon.

Proposed rule: Staff of Fate 50pts (Psyker with Mark of Tzeentch or Dedication to Tzeentch only)

Melee, Str +2, AP4, Daemon-Weapon, Two-Handed, Drain Fate

Drain Fate: Once per game at the beginning of the wielder's shooting phase, you may choose to Drain Fate. All psykers on the table (friend and foe!) immediately lose their Warp Charge points. The wielder of the Staff of Fate receives a Fate Point for each Warp Charge point drained, which he can use as a re-roll for any dice he (and only he) rolls for the rest of the game. Remember that you cannot re-roll a re-roll.

Meh, kinda cool.

paidinfull wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I find a lot of this very interesting. It seems like a lot of what people are saying is that they don't like the Direciton GW is taking in general.

That's a really interesting point. I will say that from the majority of the units they added, and the addition of the Boon list (a fundamental codex change) I really like the general direction. If I conveyed otherwise that's a failing on my part. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but this codex just feels... "light" to me. From a pure fluff angle, Chaos is supposed to be the greatest foe to the Imperium. From that standpoint the Imperium has Codex: Space Marines, which covers perhaps the largest chapter Ultramarines, while adding in Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Raven Guard, and Salamanders. If it stopped there, I would say the recent Chaos codex was a success. As it stands however, there is also Codex:Space Wolves, Codex; Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Grey Knights, Codex:Black Templars. Suffice it to say, the majority of units across those codex are roughly 80% similar. Still, those few unique units across 5x books make up almost twice as many options. Yes there is Codex Chaos Daemons, but again, there is still a significant disproportion between the two sides.

I don't necessarily want the options to be equal, but I definitely would have liked to see the gap a little narrower.

Similarly, it's like the changes for IG from 3e to 5e. They lost some of the customization to the army, but as a whole I feel that book was incredibly successful (even if Chimeras and Valks/Vens are under costed). The concepts they seemingly focused on for IG are:
boots/bodies on the ground
&
Tanks, tanks, tanks

I honestly feel that the Boon table was as awesome a change as the Doctrines to Orders. The chance of turning a champion into a daemon prince?!? Come on. That's awesome. I'm not sure if everyone realizes this, but the Boon trigger fires off of Shooting and Psychic abilities as well. Where I do feel that they dropped the ball was establishing a big part of what makes Chaos so appealing and that's the customization for the different cults. That is also represented/exemplified in the Wargear list.

I largely agree, I have thought for a while that there should be fewer imperial marine books (6th has lessened this somewhat because I am seeing more variety in armies.), I think 40k has too many armies right now and it is one of the reasons we don't see updates to books for so long.

Breng77 wrote:


I largely agree, I have thought for a while that there should be fewer imperial marine books (6th has lessened this somewhat because I am seeing more variety in armies.), I think 40k has too many armies right now and it is one of the reasons we don't see updates to books for so long.

No doubt. I don't think they need to release any new armies for sure. For the most part they could lump all of the loyalist marine books into one, but it would require a significant change of philosophy. They're already shifting towards better support for their IP as we're seeing more FAQ releases as well as unit rules in White Dwarf, but selling the codex is also a part of their business model.

Thanks for the comments guys!
Personally I would've liked Daemon Weapons to be more customizable. This is how I did them in the Legions of Khorne codex. Note of course that the Daemon weapon Attributes are more "Khorne"-esque and that I would include some different attributes in an all-rounder Chaos Space Marine codex. For example I'd have a Tzeentchian attribute that would also make the weapon a Force Weapon.

Daemon Weapons
A Daemon Weapon begins in one of the following power weapon forms: Axe, Lance, Maul, or Sword.
All Daemon Weapons have the Daemon Weapon special rule:
At the beginning of the Fight Sub-Phase, roll a D6. On a 1 the daemon rebels and the model takes a wound with no Armor saves allowed, and is WS1 until the end of the phase. Regardless of the roll, the model gains that many additional attacks until the end of the phase.

Daemon Weapon Attributes:
In addition to the Daemon Weapon Special Rule, all Daemon Weapons have 2 attributes chosen from the list below. An attribute may only be chosen once.
1. Savagery: The model rolls 2D6 for its attacks instead D6 for its Daemon Weapon and chooses the highest. If double 1's are rolled, the model directs all of its attacks against itself if in a challenge or alone, or against the nearest friendly unit within 3” in close combat.
2. Shrieking: The model causes Fear, all LD tests from Fear are taken on 3d6 taking the 2 highest.
3. Aura: +1 to the wielder's Invulnerable save
4. Hacking: This model always hits on a 2+ in close combat
5. Warp Time: The model strikes at one higher initiative step than normal, after modifiers (to a maximum of Initative Step 10)
6. Piercing: Subtract 1 from the weapon's AP
7. Strong: +1 Strength
8. Devastator: All unsaved wounds are multiplied into D3 wounds

The Proper Terminology is as follows:

Daemon Axe (Aura, Warp Time)- This is a Power Axe with the Aura (+1 invul save) and Warp Time (+1 initiative step) and Daemon Weapon special rules.

Then for something like Drachn'yen, you could have a Daemon Sword with the Piercing and Strong Attributes. Since it's such a powerful weapon in the fluff, I'd probably also give it the Devastator attribute.

I like this because then you can have all different types of Daemon Weapons: swords, axes, hell even a Daemonic lance! That's just cool.

paidinfull wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

paidinfull wrote:

Why in the world did they get rid of the daemon weapons for each mark?

Because the other marks get psychic powers.

I'm afraid I don't really buy that.

Tough titties, but that's why it happened. You asked why, that's the answer.

somerandomdude wrote:

 Marik Law wrote:
if anything Fabius and Typhus got the short end of the stick in this Codex.

I wonder how many have actually given Bile a chance? He essentially makes one unit into better Possessed. People complain about how useless Possessed are, but if you could give Possessed grenades, melta guns, melee weapon upgrades, and pistols, you'd say they were fantastic! He's a tax, but if you do it to a 20 man unit, you are only paying 8 PPM, keeping you 5 PPM cheaper than Possessed. I plan on using my Possessed models as an enhanced CSM squad from now on, and throwing a couple Melta Guns in there. Then you put Fabius with another unit to give you two hardy Fearless squads.

If you read my post on the previous page I go into more detail about why Fabius is so bad.

I make it clear that the Enhanced Warriors are pretty much the only thing going for him, but as for Fabius himself he simply isn't that good and really isn't worth his points cost or the spot on the Force Organization he takes up. Sure his CCW attacks cause Instant Death, but he gets no bonus to his Strength and can't ignore any type of armour, meaning against the most common enemy type in the game (Marines) the weapon is going to be virtually useless and, 9 times out of 10, he's going to be killed before he ever gets a chance to Instant Death anything important (like a Character). Had they treated the Rod of Torment as a Power Maul (S +2, AP 4) he would have been much better, sure he still wouldn't ignore Marine armour but he'd still be getting the benefit of +2 Strength and Concussive, making him at least a viable choice.

Some ideas to make Fabius better...
- Make the Rod of Torment S +2, AP 4, Melee, Concussive, Instant Death
- Allow one CSM unit to be upgraded to Enhanced Warriors for free (as per normal) and allow any other CSM unit to be upgraded to Enhanced Warriors for an additional points cost.

While these changes wouldn't make him a beast like Abaddon or Lucius they would at least bring him on par with the rest of the named character (i.e. usable).

Let me clarify a few things Marik:

-You're right that I did not read your post on the previous page. I was late to the thread, and much of the first couple pages were complaints back and forth regarding the amount of time we've had access to the codex, the direction of GW, etc. I skipped ahead until I found more discussion about what makes things bad, rather than whether we can call things bad at this point. Unfortunately some legitimate posts (such as yours about Bile) were skipped over as well, and for that I apologize.

-I also was not necessarily disagreeing with your statement that Fabius is one of the worst in the codex. I simply wanted to comment that I believe hardly anyone has bothered to try him. On paper, he really is pretty horrible, especially as a combat character. I really do see him simply as a tax with the added benefit of confering Fearless to another squad (backline Cultists, for instance). Not the best use of an HQ for sure, but I hope to some day have an opportunity to try him out on the table instead of reading about him and convincing myself he isn't any good.

Some of the stuff on the first page, admittedly when I read it earlier this week, seemed pretty nuts and slapdash.

I think Fabulous Bill is about as good as we've ever seen him. Think of him as a force multiplier that takes your mandatory HQ slot and they managed to tack on a decent character anyway. 6/7 str 5 instant death attacks tend to make their way past an armor save eventually and the fleshbane machine gun and FNP aren't bad either. Two instances of fearless and one +1 str is a pretty big deal when your space marines cost 13 points. You're buying some dumb HQ anyway right?


I was a little disappointed with the book but I want to give it a chance. It looks pretty cool, though it wasn't what I'm used to and I was expecting a different character from it.

I like the unlocking cult troops mechanic, seems reasonable to me. I can see things like iron warriors and alpha legion having a home in WD or IA fluff releases. Not too bothered.

I was a little miffed, however with how often the elite troops you are trying to unlock, seem really unexciting. Also how heavily the book punishes you for taking it's only real transport, the rhino.

I'd be happier if tzeench powers were a little less bad. Something was done about the prince (though I can understand if GW wants to push for MC's to get more expensive, it's a dumb move but they are some of the only really tough and fast contesting as well as AP2@I) and for cult troops to either get better, or all be scoring all the time.

I just feel bad for the prince is all. Them and berserkers and thousand sons. At the prince's cost you could make the +3 for free or add in IW. I'd also find a way to incorporate the mark too maybe as an option but this is getting too deep for me.

Berserkers - Not sure if they should come with fleet. Might be necessary in this world of poor rhino rushing and poor chaos transports. I'd reduce the cost of the plasma pistol upgrade and have them able to use those upgrade slots for those or power weapons or fists. There, you've got yourself a really okay unit right there.

Really wish obliterators were fearless again too. Don't rightly understand it. Maybe the fluff was changed.

Anyway I think this is a little dumb, but hell I've been thinking about it too.

 Lucre wrote:


Berserkers - Not sure if they should come with fleet. Might be necessary in this world of poor rhino rushing and poor chaos transports. I'd reduce the cost of the plasma pistol upgrade and have them able to use those upgrade slots for those or power weapons or fists. There, you've got yourself a really okay unit right there.

From a tabletop point of view, I actually like the oblits not being Fearless. They can Go to Ground now, and in ruins that's a 2+ cover save. The LD8, on the other hand, it,,,mind-boggling.

But yeah, Berserkers and cult troops in general are where this book's laziness really shines through. No expanded special weapons options, no new transport options, no psyker defense for being Khorne...just an option for chainaxes, removing an attack (extra attacks are for Vanguard Vets and Death Company) and adding two rules situationally bringing it back, resulting in a net loss. Otherwise, um...plasma pistols! Everyone loves them, right? When people think Khorne, plasma is the first thing that comes to mind, by gum!

realy? is this like serious?
well wont everyone want their to make [insert random codex] overpowered