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Played a game yesterday and this situation came up = my Chaos Lord rolled +1 Strength from Gift of Mutation...when he finally made it into close combat with his "victim" is he striking at S9 or S10 ?

Sounds like a job for "Multiple Modifiers" on page 2 of the BRB.

Short answer: Str9

Just wasn't sure which way to go with the modifiers, as the model becomes S5 pre-game then doubles Strength when B2B with the intended victim.

Pretty sure the boons alter the base stat of the Lord (though it is not definitely confirmed in the rules either way), in which case it would be S10.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Pretty sure the boons alter the base stat of the Lord (though it is not definitely confirmed in the rules either way), in which case it would be S10.

I would have to agree here, albeit I don't know the wording, it sounds like the Boon alters the S characteristic to S5 which would then be S10....


Iranna.

For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

 Lord Yayula wrote:
For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

I would like to show the entire GK codex against that statement. Hammering people with str 10 hammers for years now(or 1 ).

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

I would like to show the entire GK codex against that statement. Hammering people with str 10 hammers for years now(or 1 ).

Objection, explicit exception in the GK Codex, with a lack of one anywhere else means you can't use it as an example.

rigeld2 wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

I would like to show the entire GK codex against that statement. Hammering people with str 10 hammers for years now(or 1 ).

Objection, explicit exception in the GK Codex, with a lack of one anywhere else means you can't use it as an example.

I agree it is a single and probably the only example. But still it is one. For the topic itself i would say s10 because i think the boon changes the characteristic of the charcter.

Sounds like the strength bonus given by a thunderwolf mount that gave SW str10 thunderhammers and powerfists.

So +1S isnt a modifier now?

Odd

Page 2 has the answer, as already given.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

I would like to show the entire GK codex against that statement. Hammering people with str 10 hammers for years now(or 1 ).

but hammerhand is a temporary modifier and added after the hammer, which always doubles your str in combat. Just like furious charge and a power claw.

boon is a permenent modifier while murder sword is temporary.


also both FC, hammerhand make you strike at +1 str while a klaw or hammer makes your strike at sx2 while the boon table changes your characteristic. So if you had to take a Str check, like from the newcron portal of exile, you could use your booned strenght, but not your hammerhanded or powerfisted strength.

 Exergy wrote:
but hammerhand is a temporary modifier and added after the hammer, which always doubles your str in combat. Just like furious charge and a power claw.

Unless otherwise stated you follow mathematical operations (PEMDAS). AFAIK the only exception is hammerhand which specifically specifies it is added before multiplying.

Nope.jpg

Nevermind.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Sounds like the strength bonus given by a thunderwolf mount that gave SW str10 thunderhammers and powerfists.

This. Changing a stat is not the same as a modifier. Definitions matter, str 10

Page 2 disagrees with you. +1 to a stat is a modifier.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Sounds like the strength bonus given by a thunderwolf mount that gave SW str10 thunderhammers and powerfists.

This. Changing a stat is not the same as a modifier. Definitions matter, str 10

Thunderwolves are a bit of an exception. Thunerwolf mount p62 of the codex, lists the modifiers due to a thunderwolf as changes to the profile. This is different to the way in which every other modifier is dealt with in the game even hammerhand. This is a base stat not a modifier, the reason we know this is that thunderwolves always start the game with S5, whereas the chaos champion will start the next game at his baseline not with that +1 S.

So chaos character that has +1 S is a situation of (4x2)+1 not like a thunderwolf 5x2 when it comes to working out their strength when it's doubled.

What makes this different in any way from a DC man with a pf?

Aren't the Gift of Mutations calculated before the game starts anyways?

-Roll on table
-Incur bonus from table
-Add multiplier from weapon
-Your end result for the rest of the game ?

GoliothOnline wrote:
Aren't the Gift of Mutations calculated before the game starts anyways?

-Roll on table
-Incur bonus from table
-Add multiplier from weapon
-Your end result for the rest of the game ?

The table is also rolled on if you win a challenge (champion of chaos).

You can also cast the Tzeentch Boon Power to roll on the table.

It would have to apply the same in all cases.

 Tarrasq wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Aren't the Gift of Mutations calculated before the game starts anyways?

-Roll on table
-Incur bonus from table
-Add multiplier from weapon
-Your end result for the rest of the game ?

The table is also rolled on if you win a challenge (champion of chaos).

You can also cast the Tzeentch Boon Power to roll on the table.

It would have to apply the same in all cases.

But Gift of Mutation and Boon of Mutation are named differently because one occurs before the game begins no?

I understand that the table may be rerolled in the future because of Challenges and the Tzeentch specific ability, but that should simply be added to what ever your current profile is, no?

Grey Knights, pg 25, state they get +1 Strength, which happens before modifiers.

Furious Charge, pg 37, says the model receives +1 to its strength characteristic.

Space Wolves, pg62, says +1 strength to the model's profile.

Chaos Marines merely state +1 strength, with nothing else. it is unlike any of the others in wording. I would think it would go after modifiers, as if it didn't they would have put something like with Marks tidbit that state the models with the mark have those rules, even if their entry doesn't say so. Really was hoping in 6th rulebook fAQ they would have made it like toughness so that everyone would get it, but no its seems to be an Imperial thing... BS.

Again, it is the very definition of a modifier, so you follow the rules for multiple modifiers. There is no argument otherwise that doesnt just ignore the rules on page 2 without any rule based reason

I'd roll with it as a modifier RAW. But I'd play it as a perma increase like the rest of the stat mods in the boon list.

To reiterate what has already been said, the correct assessment is (4x2)+1. This order of operation was put in place partly due to the old Striking Scorpion Exarch in the 3rd Edition Eldar Codex who would have struck with a strength ten Scorpion's Claw otherwise. (Strength 4 x 2) + Crushing Blow

It was also partly done due to 3.5 Chaos Codex; although to be fair a S10 fist would have been the last thing from that book you would have to be worried about. A dark-blade and many gifts generally proved all you needed.

This (among other things) was sent up to the GW FAQ team, to clarify if the benefits change the actual profile stat or are treated as modifiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Meanwhile if we take the modifier route, then the model starts as S4 when selected from the codex... gets bumped to S5 pre-game via Gift of Mutation... gets B2B with intended victim... instantly drops down to S4... doubles to S8... then adds one to become S9 ???

strange :-/

No, he is S4+1, so then S4x2+1

So a CSM Biker is T5 but a Chaos Lord with Bike is T4+1 ?

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
So a CSM Biker is T5 but a Chaos Lord with Bike is T4+1 ?

No when on a bike he increases his toughness characteristic by 1, not +1 toughness.
Furious charge on the other hand says adds +1 to strength characteristic. A clear modifier in that case.

Similar I will grant you but very different because for a biker khorne lord a toughness test would be on T5 while a strength test would be on S4 even if he just charged.(Unless it wasn't an unmodified S test.)

Pretty simple to answer, does the boon make your lord strength 5 at all times or just during the assault phase. If it is +1 strength and there is no activator then it would be s10. All the other examples of modifiers being used have set activations and are not a permanent increase for the game. Hammerhand during assault with a psychic test, furious charge on a charge, etc. If someone tries telling you different just nod, smile, and tell them you'd rather not play them.