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BloodKnight82 wrote:
Pretty simple to answer, does the boon make your lord strength 5 at all times or just during the assault phase. If it is +1 strength and there is no activator then it would be s10. All the other examples of modifiers being used have set activations and are not a permanent increase for the game. Hammerhand during assault with a psychic test, furious charge on a charge, etc. If someone tries telling you different just nod, smile, and tell them you'd rather not play them.

Hmm might wanna read pg 2 as I nod and smile at ya than.

Modifiers, than Multiple Modifiers.

They don't care about activations, or that they take place whenever. As long as they are a modifier at all.

The difference is a temporary modifier or a change in the profile, nice try though. If i get mutated to have +1 stregth its not some of the time but all of the time. When you do modifiers you start with what is on the profile, as I have gotten my boon my base strength is now 5 not 4+1 whenever I need to add or multiply something, this is not a strength boosting item but a complete change to the basic profile.

BloodKnight82 wrote:
The difference is a temporary modifier or a change in the profile, nice try though. If i get mutated to have +1 stregth its not some of the time but all of the time. When you do modifiers you start with what is on the profile, as I have gotten my boon my base strength is now 5 not 4+1 whenever I need to add or multiply something, this is not a strength boosting item but a complete change to the basic profile.

If it states it gives +1 strength it's a modifier.
If it's a modifier you must follow the rules for them.

Its not a modifier, its a change to the profile. There's no piece of equipment or situation that "modifies" the number. The new strength characteristic is inherent to the model. 6th edition also did away with the parenthetical silliness and simplified things. Changes to base stats are now the stat.

Chaos Boons are permanent changes to the model's stat line, they aren't a "modifier", as are increases from Marks of Chaos. Models with the Mark "have" +1 to their stat, this is not situational, nor can the Mark be removed from the model during normal game play, as it is an integral part of the model. Similarly, stat increases from mounts and bikes also become part of a model's base statistics (owing to removal of parenthetical silliness in the 6th edition).

This is unlike Furious Charge, for example, which would modify the stat only during the first round of the charge. Using a Power Mace's +2S would also count as a modifier, as it applies only when the model chooses to use that particular weapon in close combat and is attached to that equipment usage. The temporary powers of the Possessed would also fall into the "modifier" category, being temporarily granted in a situation.

However, some equipment, such as the aforementioned bike or Fabius Bile's Chirurgeon, for example, are always "on" regardless of usage or situation and become an inherent part of the model's stat line.

In 5th edition, I would buy the argument that boons are modifiers and would make a model's stats look like 4(5) or whatever. In 6th, this is no longer the case.

where does it say that

"25 Strength of the Berzerke r: Power flows into the champion.
The champion has + 1 Strength." pg 29 C:CSM

Where does it say it's a change to the profile?

It says +1 Str.

"certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristis positively or negatively by adding to it (+1,+2, etc)"
Pg 2 BRB Modifiers

"For example, if a model with str 4 has both '+1str' and 'double str', its final str is 9 "
Pg 2 BRB Multiple Modifiers

I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

I don't understand how people are getting this (4x2)+1 equation it seems to me that the effect of the role is added to base stats.

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Q: Is the +1 Toughness from a Thunderwolf Mount considered bonus
Toughness, i.e. the model becomes Toughness 4(5), or is it a modification
to the base characteristic, i.e. the model becomes Toughness 5? (p62)
A: Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base
characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined
profile with Toughness 5. This is because the Toughness value
represents both the Toughness of the Space Marine and the
Toughness of the Thunderwolf (which is, if anything, more
impressive than even a member of the Astartes). It is not just
an enhanced Toughness for the Space Marine, as with a Space
Marine bike. After all, a Space Marine bike cannot react on its
own, and is useless without a rider, whereas a giant monstrous
wolf is still a tough customer!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
I don't understand how people are getting this (4x2)+1 equation it seems to me that the effect of the role is added to base stats.

Simply because as defined by the BGB on pg 2 it's a modifier, than we follow the rules for multiple modifiers also located on pg 2.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Yeah, that seems outdated... What it says about the strength?

 Crimson wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Yeah, that seems outdated... What it says about the strength?

Doesn't say anything, however I've only used a wolf lord w/ Klaw.
Never tried to push an issue, that said though looks like a modifier w/ str. so TH lord would only be Str 9.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Played a game yesterday and this situation came up = my Chaos Lord rolled +1 Strength from Gift of Mutation...when he finally made it into close combat with his "victim" is he striking at S9 or S10 ?

if your murder sword has procced to give you *2 strength it also has ID. Why do you need Str10. Are you trying to pen a land raider that is convienently next to your targeted character or a wraithlord that is T8

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Yeah, that seems outdated... What it says about the strength?

Doesn't say anything, however I've only used a wolf lord w/ Klaw.
Never tried to push an issue, that said though looks like a modifier w/ str. so TH lord would only be Str 9.

T Lord with pf is S10. The buffs of a thunderwolf are added to the base profile as per the rule and the faq.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Yeah, that seems outdated... What it says about the strength?

Doesn't say anything, however I've only used a wolf lord w/ Klaw.
Never tried to push an issue, that said though looks like a modifier w/ str. so TH lord would only be Str 9.

T Lord with pf is S10. The buffs of a thunderwolf are added to the base profile as per the rule and the faq.

The FAQ acknowledges Toughness, the +1 is a modifier according to the definition set forth by the BGB, so therefore you would also need to apply the rules set forth in multiple modifiers, making it S9.

The thunderwolf mount adds +1S, +1T and +1A to the profile. Not just a +1.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
[T Lord with pf is S10. The buffs of a thunderwolf are added to the base profile as per the rule and the faq.

To be fair that wasn't ever addressed really. The FAQ only mentions toughness, as I recall, and the rule itself wouldn't indicate otherwise. However most people use the toughness bit of the FAQ to call RAI and imply that the strength is buffed to 5. Most TOs, all that I've seen, have ruled it as such so while I have never liked that interpretation I go along with it.* On the topic of the boon however, it could go either way. No party here can prove undoubtedly that it is one way or another, though the argument that it is simply a modifier has more weight. Wait for a GW FAQ, if you can't as you care for an up coming tournament or some such ask the TO, in a friendly game simply ask your opponent, or just D6 it. I myself would advise just playing it as strength 9, as most of the time it won't matter and if it changes later you end up better.

*= Don't know if more official word came out on that or not, as last I checked it wasn't ever officially FAQed, ergo not RAW.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The thunderwolf mount adds +1S, +1T and +1A to the profile. Not just a +1.

OK so it adds modifiers, now follow the rules for them.
Than go to multiple modifiers, follow those rules.

You get a Lord+ TMC + TH that resolves attacks at Str 9

FAQ says that +1 strength from the wolf is a modification to the base characteristic? What does this even mean? Technically it would still be a modifier, but I don't think that's the intent.

In any case, I'd say that chaos boons and the wolf mount should work similarly, whatever that ends up being. They are both permanent bonuses.

However, it is an odd to have a clear rules for modifiers stacking, and then have some stuff that randomly breaks that rule.

It's actually not in the FAQ for the str, however in the Codex it states to "add +1 Strength, +1 toughness, +1attack to his profile"
PG 62 C: Space Wolves (Thunderwolf Mount)

Clearly these are modifiers by definition. As such they have to follow the rules for them.

For those of you trying to argue they change the statline, cool modifiers do that by doing +1 to stat. Even setting the value is considered a modifier in 6th.

It is in the FAQ:

"Q: Is the +1 Strength from Tunderwolf Mount a modification to the base characteristic? (p62)
A: Yes"

Sorry it's S10.

Q: Is the+1 Strength from a Thunderwolf mount a modification to the base characteristic?(p62)
A: Yes.

Thanks Crimson, ninja's again.

So unless you have specific permission from an FAQ or it's stated to be a modifier to the profile any +1 to S is a modifier.

Nope, 9. That question just makes it a modifier... Which, in 6th, has specific implications.

 Exergy wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Played a game yesterday and this situation came up = my Chaos Lord rolled +1 Strength from Gift of Mutation...when he finally made it into close combat with his "victim" is he striking at S9 or S10 ?

if your murder sword has procced to give you *2 strength it also has ID. Why do you need Str10. Are you trying to pen a land raider that is convienently next to your targeted character or a wraithlord that is T8

At game-time when it happened it had both myself and my opponent thinking about the correct strength that should be used, but since you mention it - if the nominated character was a Wraithlord then there would be a difference of wounding on 2+ or 3+

Since the previous question about the toughness of TW mounts says that a mod of the base characteristic makes it T5 not T(4+1), does that not make the S5 not S(4+1)

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Since the previous question about the toughness of TW mounts says that a mod of the base characteristic makes it T5 not T(4+1), does that not make the S5 not S(4+1)

You can imply that, however there is nothing stating that. So we follow the rules we do have.

Not to mention either way you look at it, it would be classified as a modifier.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Since the previous question about the toughness of TW mounts says that a mod of the base characteristic makes it T5 not T(4+1), does that not make the S5 not S(4+1)

It made it T5 not T4(5). It was T4+1 but 5th (when the FAQ was written) didn't have the same concept of modifiers that 6th does.

Well the FAQ is current tbh, they've removed questions in FAQ's that they think no longer matter. I agree that in 5th there was a difference when it came to ID etc but the fact that the questions are still there has some relevance to 6th ed.

IMHO the intention is that like TWC a HQ on a TW mount should have S5 T5 etc. We have always played it as thunderwolf lord with a thunder hammer is S10 as per the two questions using the same language.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well the FAQ is current tbh, they've removed questions in FAQ's that they think no longer matter. I agree that in 5th there was a difference when it came to ID etc but the fact that the questions are still there has some relevance to 6th ed.

IMHO the intention is that like TWC a HQ on a TW mount should have S5 T5 etc. We have always played it as thunderwolf lord with a thunder hammer is S10 as per the two questions using the same language.

Intended and Written are two different animals.
I'm saying that the wording they used is the 5th edition wording, which has specific consequences in 6th edition.

So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well the FAQ is current tbh, they've removed questions in FAQ's that they think no longer matter. I agree that in 5th there was a difference when it came to ID etc but the fact that the questions are still there has some relevance to 6th ed.

IMHO the intention is that like TWC a HQ on a TW mount should have S5 T5 etc. We have always played it as thunderwolf lord with a thunder hammer is S10 as per the two questions using the same language.

Intentions aside, houserules aside, keeping to the rules.

It was fine in 5th however with 6th edition the rules changed. Now they're 4+1 x2 which is worked out as 4x2=8+1=9.
Until a Faq stating that it is not a modifier they're only str 9

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

Again, that's using 5th edition wording - not 6th. That question again asserts that its a modification to the base characteristic.