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Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






rigeld2 wrote:
 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.


No.

   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

rigeld2 wrote:
 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

Again, that's using 5th edition wording - not 6th. That question again asserts that its a modification to the base characteristic.


I think that your answer is wrong. When it comes to the toughness.

Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile withToughness 5.

I think the first 4 words of this answer divorce it from the general methods for working modifiers.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Crimson wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.


No.

Please provide evidence.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 liturgies of blood wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

Again, that's using 5th edition wording - not 6th. That question again asserts that its a modification to the base characteristic.


I think that your answer is wrong. When it comes to the toughness.

Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile withToughness 5.

I think the first 4 words of this answer divorce it from the general methods for working modifiers.


Read the TW Mount in the Codex, it states it gives +1s, +1T, +1A.
Later in the FAQ it is said as it's toughness being a 5 not a 4(5)

even this is a modifier. Even if it gave it a new set value it is modified, read modifiers on pg 2. They have changed alot in this brave new edition.

   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 liturgies of blood wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

Again, that's using 5th edition wording - not 6th. That question again asserts that its a modification to the base characteristic.


I think that your answer is wrong. When it comes to the toughness.

Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile withToughness 5.

I think the first 4 words of this answer divorce it from the general methods for working modifiers.

And, as I've said, that answer worked great in 5th edition. Unfortunately in 6th edition the wording now has a different consequence. Now it's a modifier that stacks differently.

If you disagree, show where it's said to not be a modifier.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?


a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Right, so are there toughness tests that explicitly tell you to use unmodified value?

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Crimson wrote:
Right, so are there toughness tests that explicitly tell you to use unmodified value?


Never said there were, however there are things that require unmodified str, etc. Wolf lord (4) TWM +1 Thammer(x2) ='s str 9


   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

rigeld2 wrote:


If you disagree, show where it's said to not be a modifier.


Off topic:

Modifier is a thing that modifies, the +1 in the TW mount is refered to as a modification. A slight but pedantic difference that really means nothing but it is not a modifier

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?


a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/17 01:47:01


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?


a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.


Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?


a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.


Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.


As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Illinois

Nailed this, hopefully this will finalize it for all but the most pendantic.

The OP was pertaining to two different concepts:

Modifiers - A modifier is a change to a stat. In 6th edition, this is changes the model's stat line. THERE ARE NO PARENTHESES, ie 4(5), IN 6th. If the stat is modified, it becomes the new stat line in 6th edition. Most bonuses that are bought or gained in the game fall into this category, including most inate wargear.

BRB p2 explains the modifiers. Multiple Modifiers are applied as given in the rules from the base stat.

Only weapons (as listed in weapons) fall into the next category - bonuses. This concept is explained under weapons (BRB p50, Strength).

If you will notice any wording pertaining to special rules, they are quite clear when and how the modification is applied, temporary or permanently. Notice also how there are no examples of permanent "doubling" of a particular stat.

The Boon is applied and the stat just "is" +1 from the previous stat. It is now STR 5 for every intent and purpose. Then, later in the game, you get a Bonus from the weapon when striking, this is now STR 5 x 2.

If you had never heard about 5th edition and jumped straight to 6th, there would be no confusion of this sort. If you will also notice, in the updated line stats for every unit in the game, there are no longer parenthetical bonuses. The result of permanent stat increases just "ARE" the new stat. Simplified from 5th edition.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?


a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.


Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.


As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.


Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though

   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





The Memphis Sprawl

I'm thinking s10.

"SIC GORGIAMUS ALLOS SUBJECTATOS NUNC" 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?



a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.


Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.


As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.


Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though


Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.


Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?



a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.


Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.


As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.


Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though


Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.


Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?


Wording is key? that it applies a +1 to it's stat which is a modifier.

What did I win you ask?
The right answer obvs.

Two Toughness Values
Where a model has two Toughness values presented on its
profile, one of which is presented in brackets, always use the
bracketed value. Ignore the other value entirely.

If the model had T4 and now has T5 because something had given it a +1 that would be a modified toughness.




   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 liturgies of blood wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:


If you disagree, show where it's said to not be a modifier.


Off topic:

Modifier is a thing that modifies, the +1 in the TW mount is refered to as a modification. A slight but pedantic difference that really means nothing but it is not a modifier

Modification is the act of modifying something or the result of being modified. In other words, applying a modifier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PolecatEZ wrote:
Modifiers - A modifier is a change to a stat. In 6th edition, this is changes the model's stat line. THERE ARE NO PARENTHESES, ie 4(5), IN 6th. If the stat is modified, it becomes the new stat line in 6th edition. Most bonuses that are bought or gained in the game fall into this category, including most inate wargear.

Correct.

Only weapons (as listed in weapons) fall into the next category - bonuses. This concept is explained under weapons (BRB p50, Strength).

Page 50 doesn't mention the word bonus in that section at all.

If you will notice any wording pertaining to special rules, they are quite clear when and how the modification is applied, temporary or permanently. Notice also how there are no examples of permanent "doubling" of a particular stat.

No examples of one doesn't mean there is not or cannot be one.

The Boon is applied and the stat just "is" +1 from the previous stat. It is now STR 5 for every intent and purpose. Then, later in the game, you get a Bonus from the weapon when striking, this is now STR 5 x 2.

Could you re-read page 2 and tell me how that follows the rules for multiple modifiers please?

If you had never heard about 5th edition and jumped straight to 6th, there would be no confusion of this sort. If you will also notice, in the updated line stats for every unit in the game, there are no longer parenthetical bonuses. The result of permanent stat increases just "ARE" the new stat. Simplified from 5th edition.

You're assuming I'm reading the rules with a 5th edition bias. I'm not. Page 2 defines any addition to a stat as a modifier. Could you explain why you're asserting that there's a special "permanent" stat increase that the rules aren't mentioning? Or could you give me a page reference?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/17 05:49:23


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Sharkvictim wrote:
I'm thinking s10.


Using the rules on pg 2 for modifiers and multiple modifiers please show me how.

   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?



a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.


Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.


As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.


Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though


Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.


Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?


Wording is key? that it applies a +1 to it's stat which is a modifier.

What did I win you ask?
The right answer obvs.

Two Toughness Values
Where a model has two Toughness values presented on its
profile, one of which is presented in brackets, always use the
bracketed value. Ignore the other value entirely.

If the model had T4 and now has T5 because something had given it a +1 that would be a modified toughness.





Not sure if trolling or can't understand English....Guess I need to use the special long explanations I reserve for people that grasp less than my 2 year old.

Feel free to read this like I was talking to you as if you were a child, its how I'm typing it.

In the codex I own for the army called the "Space wolves" on page 62 in the rules for a special upgrade called a " Thunderwolf Mount" it describes how the characteristic increases work it says quote; "A character.."
Spoiler:
That's the wolf lord
"..with a thunderwolf mount.."
Spoiler:
That's the upgrade
"...has the unit type cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack TO ITS PROFILE..."
Spoiler:
Meaning its profile changes for good, not that its modified.


Also, Page 6 of the the "Space Wolf"...
Spoiler:
That's the army we are talking about.
... FAQ...
Spoiler:
That means "Frequently Asked Questions"
... even states that it is altering the BASE CHARACTERISTIC. Its not 4 + 1 Toughness, IT IS FIVE TOUGHNESS. The new value is the profile, not a modified characteristic IT IS THE CHARACTERISTIC.

I added some clarifying points so you could follow this fething simple concept, if you fail to understand this then no one can help you.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?



a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.


Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.


As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.


Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though


Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.


Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?


Wording is key? that it applies a +1 to it's stat which is a modifier.

What did I win you ask?
The right answer obvs.

Two Toughness Values
Where a model has two Toughness values presented on its
profile, one of which is presented in brackets, always use the
bracketed value. Ignore the other value entirely.

If the model had T4 and now has T5 because something had given it a +1 that would be a modified toughness.





Not sure if trolling or can't understand English....Guess I need to use the special long explanations I reserve for people that grasp less than my 2 year old.

Feel free to read this like I was talking to you as if you were a child, its how I'm typing it.

In the codex I own for the army called the "Space wolves" on page 62 in the rules for a special upgrade called a " Thunderwolf Mount" it describes how the characteristic increases work it says quote; "A character.."
Spoiler:
That's the wolf lord
"..with a thunderwolf mount.."
Spoiler:
That's the upgrade
"...has the unit type cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack TO ITS PROFILE..."
Spoiler:
Meaning its profile changes for good, not that its modified.


Also, Page 6 of the the "Space Wolf"...
Spoiler:
That's the army we are talking about.
... FAQ...
Spoiler:
That means "Frequently Asked Questions"
... even states that it is altering the BASE CHARACTERISTIC. Its not 4 + 1 Toughness, IT IS FIVE TOUGHNESS. The new value is the profile, not a modified characteristic IT IS THE CHARACTERISTIC.

I added some clarifying points so you could follow this fething simple concept, if you fail to understand this then no one can help you.


You see the character has toughness of 4 right?
Spoiler:
You know, the wolf lord.


You see the upgrade
Spoiler:
"T-Wolf mount" and how it gives a +1 to the above stat
right? Heck I bet that's probably even "wargear"

Well in this game that's called a
Spoiler:
modifier
, its even defined on pg 2 of your BGB.

Spoiler:
Lord + wargear ='s a toughness that was modified ...


yes it's Toughness 5 but at the same point it's modified.

   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?



a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4


Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.


Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.


As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.


Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though


Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.


Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?


Wording is key? that it applies a +1 to it's stat which is a modifier.

What did I win you ask?
The right answer obvs.

Two Toughness Values
Where a model has two Toughness values presented on its
profile, one of which is presented in brackets, always use the
bracketed value. Ignore the other value entirely.

If the model had T4 and now has T5 because something had given it a +1 that would be a modified toughness.





Not sure if trolling or can't understand English....Guess I need to use the special long explanations I reserve for people that grasp less than my 2 year old.

Feel free to read this like I was talking to you as if you were a child, its how I'm typing it.

In the codex I own for the army called the "Space wolves" on page 62 in the rules for a special upgrade called a " Thunderwolf Mount" it describes how the characteristic increases work it says quote; "A character.."
Spoiler:
That's the wolf lord
"..with a thunderwolf mount.."
Spoiler:
That's the upgrade
"...has the unit type cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack TO ITS PROFILE..."
Spoiler:
Meaning its profile changes for good, not that its modified.


Also, Page 6 of the the "Space Wolf"...
Spoiler:
That's the army we are talking about.
... FAQ...
Spoiler:
That means "Frequently Asked Questions"
... even states that it is altering the BASE CHARACTERISTIC. Its not 4 + 1 Toughness, IT IS FIVE TOUGHNESS. The new value is the profile, not a modified characteristic IT IS THE CHARACTERISTIC.

I added some clarifying points so you could follow this fething simple concept, if you fail to understand this then no one can help you.


You see the character has toughness of 4 right?
Spoiler:
You know, the wolf lord.


You see the upgrade
Spoiler:
"T-Wolf mount" and how it gives a +1 to the above stat
right? Heck I bet that's probably even "wargear"

Well in this game that's called a
Spoiler:
modifier
, its even defined on pg 2 of your BGB.

Spoiler:
Lord + wargear ='s a toughness that was modified ...


yes it's Toughness 5 but at the same point it's modified.


Except the Codex and FAQ uver rule the BRB and they both say they are a change to the base characteristic, that replaces the old profile with a new one. Rather specifically in fact. As there are no qualifiers or limitations for the alteration and at least two codex/FAQ listings backing my statement up of it being an alteration to the profile...
Spoiler:
As in not a modification
... then page two has no bearing on the subject because IT IS NOT A MODIFIER. Bike upgrades are also considered to be an alteration of profile in 6th because it alters the units Toughness, unit type and grants it special rules. So also not a modifier.

They are not exactly war gear, they are upgrades that change what the units stats are, its unit type and even special rules. An infantry lord on a bike is not affected by prefered enemy: infantry because it use to be infantry. Just the same as rolling up Daemon prince on the boon table is a permanent change to the units profile, including altering its characteristics, unit type and special rules. Are you seeing a trend here?


Which is why the specific wording of the boon table is important. Thus why I asked hours ago. Yet you insisted on arguing a moot point that has no bearing on the subject, so please just stop posting about it because your citations are wrong and have been proven wrong. Just talk about the OPs question ok.

So everyone, what is the wording in the boon table for characteristic alterations? Please be exact its important.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

Actually the Codex Overrules the BGB when there is a clash. This is not a clash.

you know what altering a profile is? A Modifier, did you even read pg 2 of the BGB modifiers???

"by adding positively or negatively""multiplying it" or even "setting its value"

What does the Thunderwolf mount option give your lord? It gives modifiers to his statline. I'm sorry you're failing miserably to see that by altering it you had to + something to it.

As far as the boon table the only one I saw read +1 Str. Oh look another modifier how quaint.

   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Actually the Codex Overrules the BGB when there is a clash. This is not a clash.

you know what altering a profile is? A Modifier, did you even read pg 2 of the BGB modifiers???

"by adding positively or negatively""multiplying it" or even "setting its value"

What does the Thunderwolf mount option give your lord? It gives modifiers to his statline. I'm sorry you're failing miserably to see that by altering it you had to + something to it.

As far as the boon table the only one I saw read +1 Str. Oh look another modifier how quaint.


I'm out....I refuse to be dragged down and beaten with experience....
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Bausk wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Actually the Codex Overrules the BGB when there is a clash. This is not a clash.

you know what altering a profile is? A Modifier, did you even read pg 2 of the BGB modifiers???

"by adding positively or negatively""multiplying it" or even "setting its value"

What does the Thunderwolf mount option give your lord? It gives modifiers to his statline. I'm sorry you're failing miserably to see that by altering it you had to + something to it.

As far as the boon table the only one I saw read +1 Str. Oh look another modifier how quaint.


I'm out....I refuse to be dragged down and beaten with experience....


Honestly though I looked for the wording on the boon table for ya. To see when it happens and all but this codex is a mess, it's everywhere and anywhere. I need sticky notes so I can tab which 3 pages the rules are on for 1 thing.

As for the Thunder Lord, sorry you're just wrong on it. You have a lord + upgrade which gives modifiers to his statline.

Now for your boon; Let's say you roll 56 "Blademaster-The champion has +1 Weapon Skill" pg 29 C:CSM
again it's a modifier, so we follow the rules for them.


   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Again, how are people ignoring the rules on page 2?

+1 *anything* is a modifier, according ot the rules on page 2. Thats it.

Boon table does not alter this fact
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Peoria IL

Its not the modifier that matters, its what's giving it. If to comes from a SR or wargear, then its part of what page 2 is talking about.

I think we saw this as a change to a stat line from something not wargear or special rule but from something else.

However, having reread all relevant rules, I agree with nos, jd and co. The gift of mutation is wargear (it is on the war gear page), not part of the unit (like a Thunderpuppy), and boon is most definetly a special rule.

Therefore, the +1 is the type of modifier (SR or wargear) that page 2 is talking about, and there for follows the order of operation set on that page.

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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




I agree in saying the strength is +1 all the time not just an assault phase so it's cannot be classified under the same as furious charge

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/17 18:57:31


 
   
 
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