Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It should be noted that the above-mentioned Lexicanum quote is not attributed to a source, it's just a statement in the article. This is where the "citation needed" tag would best apply.

Also, from that very same Lexicanum article:

Lexicanum wrote:Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]

Emphasis mine, and that is a quote from Codex: Witch-Hunters. I believe it is repeated in Codex: Daemon-Hunters as a side comment, but can't recall exactly.

Guys, I just found a fun tidbit.

You know Asterion Moloc, in the IA books? He seems to be ten feet tall.

Like, wow. That's actually a bit big.

 Psienesis wrote:
It should be noted that the above-mentioned Lexicanum quote is not attributed to a source, it's just a statement in the article. This is where the "citation needed" tag would best apply.

Also, from that very same Lexicanum article:

Lexicanum wrote:Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]

Emphasis mine, and that is a quote from Codex: Witch-Hunters. I believe it is repeated in Codex: Daemon-Hunters as a side comment, but can't recall exactly.

Wow, I suddenly hate Lexicanum with a passion. Excuse me for arguing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Guys, I just found a fun tidbit.

You know Asterion Moloc, in the IA books? He seems to be ten feet tall.

Like, wow. That's actually a bit big.

Whoa whoa, say what?

Well, he does wear Terminator Armor, so that may account for some of it.

He also has some fairly extensive bionics. Still, ten feet is very big indeed!

He's also a Minotaur. That Chapter might be specifically bred/genegineered for above-average size.

Idc, lol Moloc died to many times than I care to count

Maybe he is a perpetual?

 Psienesis wrote:
He's also a Minotaur. That Chapter might be specifically bred/genegineered for above-average size.

Doesn’t that just make them a broader target to hit? Moving through tight corridors and tunnels must a nigh impossible task for them as well.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Maybe he is a perpetual?

Or they replace him with another 10 foot tall marine and replace his memory with the dead moloc....kinda like "death race" except with a brainswap.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Doesn’t that just make them a broader target to hit?

It is arguably a problem, but then, the increased strength, toughness, resilience and ability to carry bigger weapons might (?) pay off.

It's not like 40K ever acknowledges any scale problems anyway.

Moving through tight corridors and tunnels must a nigh impossible task for them as well.

While possible, Imperial architecture seems to be universally rather oversized. Even at ten feet, operating should be possible.

Debatable though.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Lexicanum here seems to disagree though.

And I can edit Lexicanicum so that it agrees with me.
So?

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
But keep in mind relic is the same company that created Spacemarine, which is about a SM captain and two command squad members steamrolling an entire ork waagh and destroying a Chaos invasion. The game was fun and the beginning was believable but it lost sense at the end.

That is a solo video game, so I would say it is pretty tame. Have you played Doom, Serious Sam, Painkiller, Metal Slug, Duke Nukem, etc? Usually your lone hero/small group of heroes can destroy whole invasions forces/evil empire all by him/her/themselves.
I am pretty sure that if the game had been “Sister of Battle” rather than “Space Marine”, the player character would have been able to accomplish the same feat. And maybe even better through the “magical power of faith death ray superpower” or something.

 Ashiraya wrote:
There are no real sources for this, though.

None in favor, none against, and it provide an explanation. You can either accept this explanation, look for a better one, or accept the lack of logic. It is entirely up to you.

"That is a solo video game, so I would say it is pretty tame. Have you played Doom, Serious Sam, Painkiller, Metal Slug, Duke Nukem, etc? Usually your lone hero/small group of heroes can destroy whole invasions forces/evil empire all by him/her/themselves.
I am pretty sure that if the game had been “Sister of Battle” rather than “Space Marine”, the player character would have been able to accomplish the same feat. And maybe even better through the “magical power of faith death ray superpower” or something." -Hybrid son of Oxayotl

I'm just saying, it shouldn't be taken as canon because of it.

I am sorry, I do not understand what you mean.
I think Relic was pretty fair to Sisters of Battle, and certainly treated them way better than GW did during the last 10 years. So, not everyone treats them terribly, just GW.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am sorry, I do not understand what you mean.
I think Relic was pretty fair to Sisters of Battle, and certainly treated them way better than GW did during the last 10 years. So, not everyone treats them terribly, just GW.

As far as I could tell, those sisters were butchering Chaos marines. While it avenges them in the hands of GW, it is over-doing it. GW doesn't give the sisters enough and relic gave the sisters to much. They need to be balanced.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
As far as I could tell, those sisters were butchering Chaos marines.

In their final victory video. Of course they are, the player™, through his or her awesome skill©, brought them epic victory®! Now, if they player had chosen to play Chaos, her or his awesome skills© would have given Chaos an edge over everyone else, and therefore an epic victory® in a video where they are seen butchering some other faction. I am pretty sure that is what happened when Ashiraya played this game .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-PoQExz65k

Basically, players' faction win the campaign.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
As far as I could tell, those sisters were butchering Chaos marines.

In their final victory video. Of course they are, the player™, through his or her awesome skill©, brought them epic victory®! Now, if they player had chosen to play Chaos, her or his awesome skills© would have given Chaos an edge over everyone else, and therefore an epic victory® in a video where they are seen butchering some other faction. I am pretty sure that is what happened when Ashiraya played this game .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-PoQExz65k

Basically, players' faction win the campaign.

Yeah, pretty much.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
As far as I could tell, those sisters were butchering Chaos marines.

In their final victory video. Of course they are, the player™, through his or her awesome skill©, brought them epic victory®! Now, if they player had chosen to play Chaos, her or his awesome skills© would have given Chaos an edge over everyone else, and therefore an epic victory® in a video where they are seen butchering some other faction. I am pretty sure that is what happened when Ashiraya played this game .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-PoQExz65k

Basically, players' faction win the campaign.

Yeah, pretty much.

It's called plot armour, it can be found in every codex ever written by Games Workshop.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
As far as I could tell, those sisters were butchering Chaos marines.

In their final victory video. Of course they are, the player™, through his or her awesome skill©, brought them epic victory®! Now, if they player had chosen to play Chaos, her or his awesome skills© would have given Chaos an edge over everyone else, and therefore an epic victory® in a video where they are seen butchering some other faction. I am pretty sure that is what happened when Ashiraya played this game .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-PoQExz65k

Basically, players' faction win the campaign.

Yeah, pretty much.

It's called plot armour, it can be found in every codex ever written by Games Workshop.

Yes, I am aware of plot armour and all its pathetic forms.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Orbital bombardments are more complicated than you think and it would be a waste of resources using an orbital bomb to take out one man. Terminators can accurately get the job done.

1) Orbital bombardments are no more complicated than delivering marines. If you have a ship in orbit that can teleport in terminators you can just have it shoot its guns at the target. If you can send a drop pod you can send a missile instead.

2) You're not just killing one man, you're killing a whole hospital full of xenos and/or heretics, along with the commander's bodyguards/other officers/etc. And if you use a big enough bomb you can destroy a few square miles of city around the target as well, potentially killing millions of xenos and/or heretics.

3) A squad of terminators represents a MUCH bigger resource commitment than a bomb. Remember, space marines are absurdly rare, and terminators are even rarer than "normal" space marines. Holding a whole squad of them in reserve to deal with a mere command bunker is like sending the entire US army to deal with a single bank robber.

Terminators can walk into a base that a drop-pod or teleporter can't penetrate, an orbital bobmardment can not.

Furthermore, a drop-pod also isn't going to destroy that priceless relic that the Mechanicum has your balls in a vice to go recover, whereas an orbital bombardment very easily could.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Terminators can walk into a base that a drop-pod or teleporter can't penetrate, an orbital bobmardment can not.

How exactly are they supposed to penetrate this super armor/shield that can survive an orbital bombardment that would make real-world nukes look like a pretty fireworks display? Walk up and politely ask the defenders to open their defenses and let them in?

Furthermore, a drop-pod also isn't going to destroy that priceless relic that the Mechanicum has your balls in a vice to go recover, whereas an orbital bombardment very easily could.

Even ignoring the high probability of that relic sitting on top of a bomb on a dead man's switch carried by its owner there's a pretty good chance that the relic would be damaged or destroyed by stray shooting. After all, marines aren't exactly subtle and the anti-marine weapons the enemy would use against them only add to the damage risk.

Plus, now we're talking about a priceless relic, not a mere enemy commander in a bunker underneath a hospital. That's one of the very few jobs that marines might be useful for, but the question is whether there are enough priceless relics to recover to justify spending vast amounts of resources on space marines that are horrifyingly inefficient for anything else.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Terminators can walk into a base that a drop-pod or teleporter can't penetrate, an orbital bobmardment can not.

How exactly are they supposed to penetrate this super armor/shield that can survive an orbital bombardment that would make real-world nukes look like a pretty fireworks display? Walk up and politely ask the defenders to open their defenses and let them in?

Furthermore, a drop-pod also isn't going to destroy that priceless relic that the Mechanicum has your balls in a vice to go recover, whereas an orbital bombardment very easily could.

Even ignoring the high probability of that relic sitting on top of a bomb on a dead man's switch carried by its owner there's a pretty good chance that the relic would be damaged or destroyed by stray shooting. After all, marines aren't exactly subtle and the anti-marine weapons the enemy would use against them only add to the damage risk.

Plus, now we're talking about a priceless relic, not a mere enemy commander in a bunker underneath a hospital. That's one of the very few jobs that marines might be useful for, but the question is whether there are enough priceless relics to recover to justify spending vast amounts of resources on space marines that are horrifyingly inefficient for anything else.

The Imperium would be the unmatched ruler of the galaxy if everything was as easy as you say it is. Gee, wish we could just drop nukes on people we don't like.

First off, there is no telling the Imperial fleet will be able to determine this guys position. An army of IG will have to be deployed to do battle with the enemy and eventually find this guys location and when they do, terminators will teleport in, take him out and the IG can finish the war.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
The Imperium would be the unmatched ruler of the galaxy if everything was as easy as you say it is. Gee, wish we could just drop nukes on people we don't like.

Well yes, that's the entire point of the setting! The Imperium is an insane theocracy that does more harm to itself than its enemies could even dream of. If the replaced their idiotic religious beliefs with science and pragmatism their overwhelming size and resources would allow them to crush everything in their path. But they don't, and therefore humanity is doomed to a slow and painful death.

First off, there is no telling the Imperial fleet will be able to determine this guys position.

So how exactly are they supposed to teleport a squad of terminators into his bunker to kill him?

An army of IG will have to be deployed to do battle with the enemy and eventually find this guys location and when they do, terminators will teleport in, take him out and the IG can finish the war.

Ok, so now you're going to hold a priceless squad of terminators in orbit indefinitely while the guardsmen do their job. This isn't deploying the entire US army to deal with a single bank robber, it's deploying the entire US army to defend a random bank because someday someone might try to rob it. Instead of wasting terminators on such a pointless mission the proper solution is to let the IG identify the location and then call in an orbital bombardment/Basilisk barrage/etc on it until everything is dead.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
The Imperium would be the unmatched ruler of the galaxy if everything was as easy as you say it is. Gee, wish we could just drop nukes on people we don't like.

Well yes, that's the entire point of the setting! The Imperium is an insane theocracy that does more harm to itself than its enemies could even dream of. If the replaced their idiotic religious beliefs with science and pragmatism their overwhelming size and resources would allow them to crush everything in their path. But they don't, and therefore humanity is doomed to a slow and painful death.

First off, there is no telling the Imperial fleet will be able to determine this guys position.

So how exactly are they supposed to teleport a squad of terminators into his bunker to kill him?

An army of IG will have to be deployed to do battle with the enemy and eventually find this guys location and when they do, terminators will teleport in, take him out and the IG can finish the war.

Ok, so now you're going to hold a priceless squad of terminators in orbit indefinitely while the guardsmen do their job. This isn't deploying the entire US army to deal with a single bank robber, it's deploying the entire US army to defend a random bank because someday someone might try to rob it. Instead of wasting terminators on such a pointless mission the proper solution is to let the IG identify the location and then call in an orbital bombardment/Basilisk barrage/etc on it until everything is dead.

Yup...whatever you say.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Terminators can walk into a base that a drop-pod or teleporter can't penetrate, an orbital bobmardment can not.

How exactly are they supposed to penetrate this super armor/shield that can survive an orbital bombardment that would make real-world nukes look like a pretty fireworks display? Walk up and politely ask the defenders to open their defenses and let them in?

The same way everyone else gets in. The same way air gets in, or plumbing. An orbital bombardment can only engage from one direction, the sky down. Individuals on foot can approach a strong-point from multiple directions.

Even ignoring the high probability of that relic sitting on top of a bomb on a dead man's switch carried by its owner there's a pretty good chance that the relic would be damaged or destroyed by stray shooting. After all, marines aren't exactly subtle and the anti-marine weapons the enemy would use against them only add to the damage risk.

Actually, no. Space Marines are extremely precise when they care to be. Their aim and awareness of collateral damage is vastly superior to any other Human troops in the Imperium. Space Marines excel at fighting in environments where "a single stray shot" can result in everyone in the vicinity getting killed by explosive decompression.

Plus, now we're talking about a priceless relic, not a mere enemy commander in a bunker underneath a hospital. That's one of the very few jobs that marines might be useful for, but the question is whether there are enough priceless relics to recover to justify spending vast amounts of resources on space marines that are horrifyingly inefficient for anything else.

You can switch relic with enemy commander- the principle remains the same. There are many situations where sending in a crack team of individuals is required over simply bombing everything into oblivion. And, again, I'm just adopting your own argument here for why the Imperial Guard even exist. Why bother sending in the Guard to fight an army when you can just blow it up from space or with aircraft?

As for justification of resources- this is the Imperium of Man. Don't back out on your own principles and start asserting that they function via logic and efficiency. If the Mechanicum wants something. they get it.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Yup...whatever you say.

Well that was a very constructive post. 10/10, would read again.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The same way everyone else gets in. The same way air gets in, or plumbing. An orbital bombardment can only engage from one direction, the sky down. Individuals on foot can approach a strong-point from multiple directions.

But the orbital bombardment can engage with many orders of magnitude greater firepower. And a space marine isn't going to be able to get in through a water pipe or air vent that is only a few inches in diameter. So that means trying to break down the door or cut through the walls, and I doubt a marine is going to be able to do anything against doors or walls that can survive megaton-level (or worse!) orbital bombardment shots, even when it hits the roof of the bunker instead of directly on the door.

Actually, no. Space Marines are extremely precise when they care to be. Their aim and awareness of collateral damage is vastly superior to any other Human troops in the Imperium. Space Marines excel at fighting in environments where "a single stray shot" can result in everyone in the vicinity getting killed by explosive decompression.

They use miniature grenade launchers as their standard weapon. It doesn't matter how good your aim is if every shot results in a frag grenade going off inside your target. And, given the fact that space marines wear sealed armor with a built-in air supply the first thing they should do is blow a hole in the hull and kill everyone who isn't a space marine.

You can switch relic with enemy commander- the principle remains the same.

No you can't, because an enemy commander is not something that needs to be taken intact. If all you need to do is kill something then just nuke it from orbit.

And, again, I'm just adopting your own argument here for why the Imperial Guard even exist. Why bother sending in the Guard to fight an army when you can just blow it up from space or with aircraft?

Because the IG are able to hold an objective, not just kill everything in the general area. That's something space marines can't do effectively because of their ridiculously limited numbers. If GW had a better sense of scale then this might be different, but we're stuck with marine numbers in the "less than one marine per planet" range which means that even a single tactical squad is an almost-priceless asset that most commanders can only dream of having. And that single tactical squad has no hope of holding ground for very long, simply because they will run out of ammunition before the enemy runs out of troops to send against them, and space marines die very quickly when the enemy is allowed to concentrate a dozen krak missiles or lascannons on every marine.

In short, marines depend on smashing something and getting out before they get overwhelmed by sheer numbers. IG don't.

As for justification of resources- this is the Imperium of Man. Don't back out on your own principles and start asserting that they function via logic and efficiency. If the Mechanicum wants something. they get it.

I'm not backing out of any principles. In fact that's the whole point of my argument: the Imperium is irrational and stupid, and space marines represent a horrifying waste of resources. Obviously the Imperium has reasons for making more space marines, but those reasons are stupid. And yes, the Imperium's attitude of "science and engineering are heresy, therefore we must waste obscene amounts of resources on recovering technology" is stupid.

They sorta come across (in my opinion) as fascists in space, imposing and forcing their rule on to planets that due not yield and ally with a husk on a throne.

Space Marines are their to purge the Mutant, Alien, Unclean you know, all that jazz that 1,000,000,000,000,000 Imperial Guardsmen cant deal with.

So, in Peregrines opinion, IG and SM shouldn't exist, just use orbital bombs.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
So, in Peregrines opinion, IG and SM shouldn't exist, just use orbital bombs.

Ah yes, another constructive post from you. Perhaps instead of posting nonsense like this you could read my previous post where I explained why IG are useful even though orbital bombardment exists? Here, I'll even re-post it for you:

Because the IG are able to hold an objective, not just kill everything in the general area. That's something space marines can't do effectively because of their ridiculously limited numbers. If GW had a better sense of scale then this might be different, but we're stuck with marine numbers in the "less than one marine per planet" range which means that even a single tactical squad is an almost-priceless asset that most commanders can only dream of having. And that single tactical squad has no hope of holding ground for very long, simply because they will run out of ammunition before the enemy runs out of troops to send against them, and space marines die very quickly when the enemy is allowed to concentrate a dozen krak missiles or lascannons on every marine.

In short, marines depend on smashing something and getting out before they get overwhelmed by sheer numbers. IG don't.