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So for example:
A Necron Lord joins a unit of Warriors, is challenged and slain. The rest of the Warriors are still fine. Does this give up First Blood?


FAQ says nothing that I can see.
The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

My interpretation is that he is part of that unit and thus does not give up First Blood, as although he is killed the unit has not been killed.

The IC will give up first blood stand by for longer definition.

He is a unit. When he joins a unit, he is part of a unit. However that 1 unit is actually made up of 2 units.

 JayVee wrote:
So for example:
A Necron Lord joins a unit of Warriors, is challenged and slain. The rest of the Warriors are still fine. Does this give up First Blood?


FAQ says nothing that I can see.
The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

My interpretation is that he is part of that unit and thus does not give up First Blood, as although he is killed the unit has not been killed.

Once the IC is slain, he is no longer part of that unit and is removed as a casualty, so I would venture to say that it counts for First Blood. See the bold in the quote. Those rules only sound like they apply when he's actually part of the unit, which he's not because he's been removed.

I going to agree with Nick on this one. He was purchased separately and is another unit, he just counts as part of that unit while in it, in most circumstances. Once dead, he's a dead unit by himself... +1VP

This was how it was played at a tourny last week, IC's give up first blood.

Now they ruled quad guns do not give up first blood, true?

Somehow I feel a quad gun should give up first blood, but ultimately it's up to the TO.

First unit downed gives First Blood, A gun Emplacement has a stat-line, however it never truly says what it is. However it does appear to be a model.

 JayVee wrote:
So for example:
A Necron Lord joins a unit of Warriors, is challenged and slain. The rest of the Warriors are still fine. Does this give up First Blood?


FAQ says nothing that I can see.
The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

My interpretation is that he is part of that unit and thus does not give up First Blood, as although he is killed the unit has not been killed.

A necron lord isnt an IC, i assume you mean overlord if so then yes it is first blood, because he is a separate VP altogether

Lord's are basically a sergeant for the unit, they are not IC's. An overlord would award FB but Lords do not.

Quad guns are neutral units - both players can use or attack them. That is why they do not grant first blood.

ICs are considered as a unit for kill points, and for first blood as well, regardless if they've joined another unit or not.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Quad guns are neutral units - both players can use or attack them. That is why they do not grant first blood.

Re-read first blood, it doesn't matter friendly,neutral, etc. "First unit, of any kind" pg 122BGB

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Quad guns are neutral units - both players can use or attack them. That is why they do not grant first blood.

Re-read first blood, it doesn't matter friendly,neutral, etc. "First unit, of any kind" pg 122BGB

It states that the VP goes to the Opposing player, so how do you determine who the opposing player was if there was no one controlling it when it was removed?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Quad guns are neutral units - both players can use or attack them. That is why they do not grant first blood.

Re-read first blood, it doesn't matter friendly,neutral, etc. "First unit, of any kind" pg 122BGB

Is a quad gun truely considered a unit or is it a weapon requiring a model/unit to operate it?

Someone asked this one earlier and I belive that I put it very eloquently.

Dying seems an effective way to leave a unit

Long story short, yes.

 Rorschach9 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Quad guns are neutral units - both players can use or attack them. That is why they do not grant first blood.

Re-read first blood, it doesn't matter friendly,neutral, etc. "First unit, of any kind" pg 122BGB

Is a quad gun truely considered a unit or is it a weapon requiring a model/unit to operate it?

Essentially it's a model, units are made up of models, sometimes a single model.(in this case, model/terrain/unit) in any order
so when you kill the gun, you've managed to kill all 3 of those things as far as I can determine

Again, if it's not controlled by either player, who gets the VP?

Neither? I'd have to go home and check my rulebook but If its neutral then I am of a mind that no one gets FB off of it.

I'm of a mind to say that it cannot count towards first blood as it's not a unit (quad guns are an upgrade to a fortification .. sorry but that =/= a unit of it's own imo).

But we're essentially off topic.. OP was asking about IC's.

 JayVee wrote:
So for example:
A Necron Lord joins a unit of Warriors, is challenged and slain. The rest of the Warriors are still fine. Does this give up First Blood?


FAQ says nothing that I can see.
The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

My interpretation is that he is part of that unit and thus does not give up First Blood, as although he is killed the unit has not been killed.

To even better answer this question.

Check out Primary Obj. Purge the Alien Pg 127 BGB, last Sentence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rorschach9 wrote:
I'm of a mind to say that it cannot count towards first blood as it's not a unit (quad guns are an upgrade to a fortification .. sorry but that =/= a unit of it's own imo).

But we're essentially off topic.. OP was asking about IC's.

It is a unit of it's own as it meets classifications as such, however it does not meet the requirements for first blood after re-reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Quad guns are neutral units - both players can use or attack them. That is why they do not grant first blood.

Re-read first blood, it doesn't matter friendly,neutral, etc. "First unit, of any kind" pg 122BGB

I feel that it does count as first blood, however a 0 would be scored after killing it.
It meets the criteria for first blood, just not for a point to be issued

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Rorschach9 wrote:
I'm of a mind to say that it cannot count towards first blood as it's not a unit (quad guns are an upgrade to a fortification .. sorry but that =/= a unit of it's own imo).

But we're essentially off topic.. OP was asking about IC's.

It is a unit of it's own as it meets classifications as such, however it does not meet the requirements for first blood after re-reading.

Please enlighten me as to how an upgrade to a fortification is considered a unit of its own.

It's a gun emplacement with a profile. It is a unit consisting of 1 model that can be attacked or utilized. Rules for gun emplacements can be found in the brb.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
It's a gun emplacement with a profile. It is a unit consisting of 1 model that can be attacked or utilized. Rules for gun emplacements can be found in the brb.

Thank you. I was looking up "quad gun", not gun emplacement.

1. Page 2: MODELS & UNITS: '[ ] each model has it's own characteristic profile.'

2. Page 3: FORMING A UNIT: Units: 'A unit usually consists of of several models that have banded together, but a single [ ] model [ ] is also considered also considered to be a unit in its own right.'

3. Page 108: THE ARMY LIST: '[ ] players need to pick their forces.'

4. Page 109: FORCE ORGANISATION CHART: 'It is split into three sections: primary detachment, allied detachment and fortifications.'

5. Page 122: FIRST BLOOD: 'The first unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player [ ].'

1. A Gun Emplacement is a model because it has a characteristic profile.

2. A single model such as a Gun Emplacement is a unit in its own right, not a Gun Emplacement and an Aegis Defence Line as the ADL has no characteristic profile.

3. Your force consists of all models in your Army List.

4. Your forces include Fortifications.

5. If you kill a unit from your army list, such as a Gun Emplacement, your opponent would get First Blood.

Interesting catch for #5) Jon, that actually makes sense and dissuades people from taking a quad gun or Icarus lascannon just to kill it themselves for a free VP

 JayVee wrote:
So for example:
A Necron Lord joins a unit of Warriors, is challenged and slain. The rest of the Warriors are still fine. Does this give up First Blood?


FAQ says nothing that I can see.
The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

My interpretation is that he is part of that unit and thus does not give up First Blood, as although he is killed the unit has not been killed.

No one who has stated that the IC counts for First Blood after the IC joined a unit have addressed the OP's points about how ICs that join units are handled.

There are no rules about an IC that dies while part of a unit counting as having left the unit, and First Blood does not refer to FOC selections. Once the IC joins a unit, they would not count for First Blood if they died and the rest of the unit was still in play.

 snooggums wrote:

 JayVee wrote:
So for example:
A Necron Lord joins a unit of Warriors, is challenged and slain. The rest of the Warriors are still fine. Does this give up First Blood?


FAQ says nothing that I can see.
The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

My interpretation is that he is part of that unit and thus does not give up First Blood, as although he is killed the unit has not been killed.

No one who has stated that the IC counts for First Blood after the IC joined a unit have addressed the OP's points about how ICs that join units are handled.

There are no rules about an IC that dies while part of a unit counting as having left the unit, and First Blood does not refer to FOC selections. Once the IC joins a unit, they would not count for First Blood if they died and the rest of the unit was still in play.

At first I was going to continue to disagree, until I read the IC rules on Pg. 39

"If an IC joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase"

So, this (at least to me) implies that he can only be his own unit (counting as a VP in regards to FB) again once the unit he joined is killed, or he leaves the unit in the movement phase and is subsequently killed before he joins another unit.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 snooggums wrote:

 JayVee wrote:
So for example:
A Necron Lord joins a unit of Warriors, is challenged and slain. The rest of the Warriors are still fine. Does this give up First Blood?


FAQ says nothing that I can see.
The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

My interpretation is that he is part of that unit and thus does not give up First Blood, as although he is killed the unit has not been killed.

No one who has stated that the IC counts for First Blood after the IC joined a unit have addressed the OP's points about how ICs that join units are handled.

There are no rules about an IC that dies while part of a unit counting as having left the unit, and First Blood does not refer to FOC selections. Once the IC joins a unit, they would not count for First Blood if they died and the rest of the unit was still in play.

At first I was going to continue to disagree, until I read the IC rules on Pg. 39

"If an IC joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase"

So, this (at least to me) implies that he can only be his own unit (counting as a VP in regards to FB) again once the unit he joined is killed, or he leaves the unit in the movement phase and is subsequently killed before he joins another unit.

When he dies, he is no longer a part of that unit.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


When he dies, he is no longer a part of that unit.

No, the unit including the Cbaracter has lost a model equal to the Character's number of wounds. Although The Character reverts back to a single unit as an IC if the squad was to die (presumably so he can legally join a different unit), that does not make the reverse true.

 snooggums wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


When he dies, he is no longer a part of that unit.

No, the unit including the Cbaracter has lost a model equal to the Character's number of wounds. Although The Character reverts back to a single unit as an IC if the squad was to die (presumably so he can legally join a different unit), that does not make the reverse true.

Any chance you can prove that logic?
If he's not there, he is not attached to the unit.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 snooggums wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


When he dies, he is no longer a part of that unit.

No, the unit including the Cbaracter has lost a model equal to the Character's number of wounds. Although The Character reverts back to a single unit as an IC if the squad was to die (presumably so he can legally join a different unit), that does not make the reverse true.

Any chance you can prove that logic?
If he's not there, he is not attached to the unit.

Already posted, you have posted conjecture that he is somehow not part of the unit after the quoted rules state he is part of the unit for all purposes once he has joined. Please support your opinion.

If he's still a part of the unit, please keep the IC in coherency?