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6th edition states that a flyer transport causes an S10 AP2 hit to all its occupants when it is wrecked or explodes. The Necron codex states that the passengers may not disembark when their vehicle is destroyed, but instead enters reserve.

Do those passengers still take the damage from being in a wrecked flyer? I can't seem to find any mention of this in either the 6e Core or Necron FAQs, and by RAW it seems that they would indeed take the hit. It'd be nice to have some degree of confirmation, though.

RAW they do, RAI i think they don't. Either discuss it with the opponent pre game or dice off for it, or have a third party decide is usually how we handle the issue.

It seems RAW they do, RAI is a bit unclear tbh. If you break it down into steps by the time they would "disembark" they've already taken the hits and possibly all died

They aren't passengers. The vehicle description states the vehicle has no transport compartment, so they can't be on board - and it is simply a worm hole that brings them in from a remote location.

And the rule that states they enter reserve is the vehicle is destroyed, further confirms they were never on board - basically have to find a new way to enter battle at this point.

The vehicle profile even states (page 51 of the codex) "If the Night Scythe is destroyed, its payload squad is simply isolated from the battle until an alternate means of deployment can be established"

"isolated = they are not effected" to me.

I'm with fursphere here, this being the explanation that was given last time I heard this question

fursphere wrote:
They aren't passengers. The vehicle description states the vehicle has no transport compartment, so they can't be on board - and it is simply a worm hole that brings them in from a remote location.

And the rule that states they enter reserve is the vehicle is destroyed, further confirms they were never on board - basically have to find a new way to enter battle at this point.

The vehicle profile even states (page 51 of the codex) "If the Night Scythe is destroyed, its payload squad is simply isolated from the battle until an alternate means of deployment can be established"

"isolated = they are not effected" to me.

I don't have the codex in front of me, however I remember a part that said they don't disembark in the rules.

"if the NS is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve (no deep striking allowed)"

Is that what you're refering too? So because the rule uses the word "embark" and "disembark", they must be "on" the vehicle for the purpose of rules?

RAW it is ambiguous. RAI they don't take the hits. RAW occupants in a flyer never disembark. They are just placed in the crater of the flyer.

Aycee

fursphere wrote:
"if the NS is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve (no deep striking allowed)"

Is that what you're refering too? So because the rule uses the word "embark" and "disembark", they must be "on" the vehicle for the purpose of rules?

Yep, they're embarked. They take the hits RAW, and tbh I'm not sure if it's RAI for them to take them or not. However I'd say yes as it's following it step by step.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

fursphere wrote:
They aren't passengers. The vehicle description states the vehicle has no transport compartment, so they can't be on board - and it is simply a worm hole that brings them in from a remote location.

And the rule that states they enter reserve is the vehicle is destroyed, further confirms they were never on board - basically have to find a new way to enter battle at this point.

The vehicle profile even states (page 51 of the codex) "If the Night Scythe is destroyed, its payload squad is simply isolated from the battle until an alternate means of deployment can be established"

"isolated = they are not effected" to me.

I don't have the codex in front of me, however I remember a part that said they don't disembark in the rules.

We had a few forums about this in the past.

To my understanding the RAW supports the idea that the Immortals inside the flyer suffer from it exploding during impact the survivors are then transported onto the battlefield another way like any other player

the RAI due to people saying "but they get out" is actually not an awful statement but it is more or less the idea it doesn't make sense for the necron to wait around to take the damage they would just "not be on the ship they would teleport" which the RAI does underline this a bit.

At the moment I make sure people tell me how they want it working before we begin. Personally i argee with RAW flyers are very potent and necron flying circus is currently powerful as heck in this edition. Treating it like all other flyers only makes sense to me at this time. Also the idea of the RAW argument is as followers

According to the flyer wrecked or explodes results is after you scatter the flyer it explodes dealing strength 10 no armor save hits to everyone in the unit before disembarking occurs. When you read the necron codex it states that should a unit be forced to disembark due to a vehicle destroyed result they are instead held in reserves. The problem with this is that it is stressing a "timing difference" this means it explodes before they warp away, so imagine it suffering cataclysmic damage before the surviving immortals get away.

so the steps go

enemy shoots
Flyer chooses to dive or not
enemy rolls for penetrations
enemy applies results (Explodes result rolled)
Scatter 2d6
occupants hit by S:10 no armor save hits
Survivors may now disembark and roll pinning tests (this is where in necron codex the cron are now able to be held back in reserves)

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

fursphere wrote:
"if the NS is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve (no deep striking allowed)"

Is that what you're refering too? So because the rule uses the word "embark" and "disembark", they must be "on" the vehicle for the purpose of rules?

Yep, they're embarked. They take the hits RAW, and tbh I'm not sure if it's RAI for them to take them or not. However I'd say yes as it's following it step by step.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I understand what you're getting at, but what you're ultimately doing is pointing out a very cheesy way of getting an advantage in a competitive situation.

It needs to be FAQ'd, but the intent - as per the codex - is extremely clear in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

so the steps go

enemy shoots
Flyer chooses to dive or not
enemy rolls for penetrations
enemy applies results (Explodes result rolled)
Scatter 2d6
occupants hit by S:10 no armor save hits
Survivors may now disembark and roll pinning tests (this is where in necron codex the cron are now able to be held back in reserves)

Except its like this...

so the steps go

enemy shoots
Flyer chooses to dive or not
enemy rolls for penetrations
enemy applies results (Explodes result rolled)
Scatter 2d6
there are no occupants on board to be hit, so this step is skipped.
necron codex the cron are now able to be held back in reserves

It's weird to see Necron players reaching...

I'm sure we'd all love to have flying transports that suffer none of the disadvantages of flying.

fursphere wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

fursphere wrote:
"if the NS is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve (no deep striking allowed)"

Is that what you're refering too? So because the rule uses the word "embark" and "disembark", they must be "on" the vehicle for the purpose of rules?

Yep, they're embarked. They take the hits RAW, and tbh I'm not sure if it's RAI for them to take them or not. However I'd say yes as it's following it step by step.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I understand what you're getting at, but what you're ultimately doing is pointing out a very cheesy way of getting an advantage in a competitive situation.

It needs to be FAQ'd, but the intent - as per the codex - is extremely clear in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

so the steps go

enemy shoots
Flyer chooses to dive or not
enemy rolls for penetrations
enemy applies results (Explodes result rolled)
Scatter 2d6
occupants hit by S:10 no armor save hits
Survivors may now disembark and roll pinning tests (this is where in necron codex the cron are now able to be held back in reserves)

Except its like this...

so the steps go

enemy shoots
Flyer chooses to dive or not
enemy rolls for penetrations
enemy applies results (Explodes result rolled)
Scatter 2d6
there are no occupants on board to be hit, so this step is skipped.
necron codex the cron are now able to be held back in reserves

If you're embarked you're inside. At the beginning of the game you choose to deploy as normal or embark. Show me where you're given permission to do otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember fluff =/= rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
“Invasion Beams: A unit that begins its Movement phase
embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark before or after
the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so
long as the vehicle has not moved more than 36". If the Night
Scythe moves more than 24" in the same turn, the disembarking
unit can only fire Snap Shots.”

FAQ for disembarking. First sentence says your embarked upon it.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

fursphere wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

fursphere wrote:
"if the NS is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve (no deep striking allowed)"

Is that what you're refering too? So because the rule uses the word "embark" and "disembark", they must be "on" the vehicle for the purpose of rules?

Yep, they're embarked. They take the hits RAW, and tbh I'm not sure if it's RAI for them to take them or not. However I'd say yes as it's following it step by step.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I understand what you're getting at, but what you're ultimately doing is pointing out a very cheesy way of getting an advantage in a competitive situation.

It needs to be FAQ'd, but the intent - as per the codex - is extremely clear in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

so the steps go

enemy shoots
Flyer chooses to dive or not
enemy rolls for penetrations
enemy applies results (Explodes result rolled)
Scatter 2d6
occupants hit by S:10 no armor save hits
Survivors may now disembark and roll pinning tests (this is where in necron codex the cron are now able to be held back in reserves)

Except its like this...

so the steps go

enemy shoots
Flyer chooses to dive or not
enemy rolls for penetrations
enemy applies results (Explodes result rolled)
Scatter 2d6
there are no occupants on board to be hit, so this step is skipped.
necron codex the cron are now able to be held back in reserves

If you're embarked you're inside. At the beginning of the game you choose to deploy as normal or embark. Show me where you're given permission to do otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember fluff =/= rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
“Invasion Beams: A unit that begins its Movement phase
embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark before or after
the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so
long as the vehicle has not moved more than 36". If the Night
Scythe moves more than 24" in the same turn, the disembarking
unit can only fire Snap Shots.”

FAQ for disembarking. First sentence says your embarked upon it.

Correct, you aren't just flying your night scythe around with nothing inside it it's required you inform you tell your enemy what is using that as a transport and all the terminology says it is embarked everywhere else. faq, main rulebook, even your own codex except for a poorly written sentence that says when you disembark you must go into reserves instead, again the damage come before disembarking which your codex clearly shows as what is required for you to swap from the wreckage.

Your fluff is strong and almost looks like a rule however it isn't overpowering the main rules and this is sadly due to the fact that they made the night scythe a bit awkward. it was created before the flyer rules were perfected as a result your codex is the only one that can fly 23 inches drop off troops which can then file out 6 inches from disembark and still fire as normal, it's effectively a perfect deepstrike. I hate to say it but i agree with the concensus of the group here; your interruptation is merely refusing the truth. depending how you presented this to me I might not even allow a dice roll off because it's a clear and obvious line of events. If you were a nice and friendly player i would probably let it slide and just roll off but if you weren't a nice or friendly person... lol good luck getting me to be your pal for such a more or less black and white ruling.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/459610.page

If you dare.....
Took me forever to find and its not one of the more civilized discussions on this forum but, eh, there you have it.

The biggest issue with them not taking the damage is there is no rules saying that they dont. Its hinted to quite a bit but as it stands, RAW, they take the hits. I dont like it but then again, I dont use them so it dosent really matter to me anymore.

RAW they take the hits. Absolutely no question - they are an embarked unit and have no allowance to NOT take the hits.

RAI? WHo knows. You can easily fluff reasons for an against - feedback through the portal hitting the unit waiting to go through, etc. Which is why RAI is generally a poor argument.

RAW, they are treated as embarked -as the rules repeatedly refer to "embarked units".

Had the rules instead specified something such as "Instead of carrying embrked units, the Night Scythe may place one unit in reserve onto the table, as if they had disembarked from the Night Scythe" - then they would be immune to the damage of a crashing Night Scythe.

It does not, however.

It may be FAQ'd that they do not suffer the hits as a result, since they are not placed when the vehicle crashes and instead enter reserves.

RAW can you show me in the BRB where units disembark from any flying transport? RAW units in a wrecked flyer never disembark so in that case the Necrons embarked on a Scythe should then be destroyed because in the process of working out what happens to an embarked unit in a flyer they never disembark.

Once again it's a poorly written rules so in that case RAI should be given more weight. Ever they ever FAQ it, i would bet they would FAQ that they don't take the hits.

Aycee

By RAW I would say they take hits asthe order for taking hits comes before disembarking.

By RAI I guess they wouldn't as they aren't (by fluff) in the Night Scythe though you can't really use fluff as an argument.
Even then, in a SoB book, a necron flyer was destroyed and the portal they were waiting to pass through exploded and killed all the warriors. (or at least that's what I remember hearing about)

Aycee71 wrote:
RAW can you show me in the BRB where units disembark from any flying transport? RAW units in a wrecked flyer never disembark so in that case the Necrons embarked on a Scythe should then be destroyed because in the process of working out what happens to an embarked unit in a flyer they never disembark.

Once again it's a poorly written rules so in that case RAI should be given more weight. Ever they ever FAQ it, i would bet they would FAQ that they don't take the hits.

Aycee

Pg. 81 under "CRASH AND BURN" entry

"... If the flyer is a transport, any models within suffer a strength 10 hit with no armor saves allowed. SURVIVORS ARE PLACED ANYWHERE WITHIN 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency. any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties"

Pg. 410 Under "Appendix 2 References Legend" Entry

... Flyer = Fl ... Transport = T

Pg. 413 Under "Codex: Necrons - Vehicle " Entry

Necron Night Scythe ... type: Fl, T

The words disembark are never even used in the main rules for this. When your vehicle is destroyed you suffer strength 10 hits BEFORE your rule comes into play because your codex says only when you are allowed to disembark are you allowed to jump ship... so yeah thank you for proving RAW's point. It doesn't say disembark it says when your vehicle is destroyed and if it is a transport that was carrying a unit.

Like i said it's more or less black and white. The whole crux of the arguement was that disembarking was to be considered placing the models within 3 inches of the blast marker but it isn't... if it was then your rule still wouldn't apply because the damage happens in a two step phase. Explosion, then pile out. Please, if you are going to argue for your case read the rules to at least know how to muddy the water.

Aycee71 wrote:
RAW can you show me in the BRB where units disembark from any flying transport? RAW units in a wrecked flyer never disembark so in that case the Necrons embarked on a Scythe should then be destroyed because in the process of working out what happens to an embarked unit in a flyer they never disembark.

Correct. Since that's silly (it renders the NS rule entirely meaningless) the placement should be considered disembarking for the purposes of the NS rule.

Once again it's a poorly written rules so in that case RAI should be given more weight. Ever they ever FAQ it, i would bet they would FAQ that they don't take the hits.

Your interpretation of RAI. I disagree with it. There are fluff examples of the portal "backfiring" and destroying the unit that was waiting to deploy.

I noticed RAI is often what the player wants to see rather than what they actually read from the mind of the writers. To me, RAI or RAW, the passengers take the hit, then are placed into reserve, losing all RP counters in the process, because there is nowhere in the rules of the nightscythe where it contradicts the "taking damage" part of the Crash and Burn, it does however contradicts where the survivors are placed, so codex > BRB in that case.

Baronyu wrote:
I noticed RAI is often what the player wants to see rather than what they actually read from the mind of the writers. To me, RAI or RAW, the passengers take the hit, then are placed into reserve, losing all RP counters in the process, because there is nowhere in the rules of the nightscythe where it contradicts the "taking damage" part of the Crash and Burn, it does however contradicts where the survivors are placed, so codex > BRB in that case.

How does it contradict the "where the survivors are placed" part? The rule says :

Transport (Night Scythe): The Night Scythe has a transport capacity of 15. It can carry jump infantry (each model takes up two points of transport capacity) and jetbikes (each model takes up three points of transport capacity). If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserves (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike).

So, either the Necrons take the hits and are placed in the crater or they don't take the hits and are placed in reserves.

Tye_Informer wrote:

Baronyu wrote:
I noticed RAI is often what the player wants to see rather than what they actually read from the mind of the writers. To me, RAI or RAW, the passengers take the hit, then are placed into reserve, losing all RP counters in the process, because there is nowhere in the rules of the nightscythe where it contradicts the "taking damage" part of the Crash and Burn, it does however contradicts where the survivors are placed, so codex > BRB in that case.

How does it contradict the "where the survivors are placed" part? The rule says :

Transport (Night Scythe): The Night Scythe has a transport capacity of 15. It can carry jump infantry (each model takes up two points of transport capacity) and jetbikes (each model takes up three points of transport capacity). If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserves (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike).

So, either the Necrons take the hits and are placed in the crater or they don't take the hits and are placed in reserves.

Or you do it in the proper sequences up to the point where they would disembark. At that point they've already taken hits

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Or you do it in the proper sequences up to the point where they would disembark. At that point they've already taken hits

But they never disembark, they are "placed". It is wording from an old codex, so either it replaces the whole "getting out of an destroyed vehicle", like it did in 5th Edition or it is no longer valid. I'm okay with either ruling, but this take a bit here, take a bit there, because that's what was intended thing doesn't work for a RAW argument.

Did you even read the posts just above yours? THey disprove your point...

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Or you do it in the proper sequences up to the point where they would disembark. At that point they've already taken hits

Show me in the rules where units in a flying transport ever disembark. By you stating that units disembark from a wrecked flyer you are making up a rule that does not exist.

Also for the person who earlier says that by me bringing that up even more proves their point, I disagree. I brought that point up to show that the rule set in the BRB and the rule set in the codex do not agree on the sequence of events. If you follow strictly RAW, the contradiction between the two rule sets represent badly written rules. If you argue that they take the hits you are making just as many assumptions about how the rules work as those that agree that they do not take the hits.

Aycee

Aycee71 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Or you do it in the proper sequences up to the point where they would disembark. At that point they've already taken hits

Show me in the rules where units in a flying transport ever disembark. By you stating that units disembark from a wrecked flyer you are making up a rule that does not exist.

Also for the person who earlier says that by me bringing that up even more proves their point, I disagree. I brought that point up to show that the rule set in the BRB and the rule set in the codex do not agree on the sequence of events. If you follow strictly RAW, the contradiction between the two rule sets represent badly written rules. If you argue that they take the hits you are making just as many assumptions about how the rules work as those that agree that they do not take the hits.

Aycee

“Invasion Beams: A unit that begins its Movement phase
embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark before or after
the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so
long as the vehicle has not moved more than 36". If the Night
Scythe moves more than 24" in the same turn, the disembarking
unit can only fire Snap Shots.”

Where it says they disembark

Aycee71 wrote:
Also for the person who earlier says that by me bringing that up even more proves their point, I disagree. I brought that point up to show that the rule set in the BRB and the rule set in the codex do not agree on the sequence of events. If you follow strictly RAW, the contradiction between the two rule sets represent badly written rules. If you argue that they take the hits you are making just as many assumptions about how the rules work as those that agree that they do not take the hits.

Not true. Since the Night Scythe rule only functions when the unit disembarks, it's literally useless in 6th edition. That's one (valid) way to read the RAW.
To make it useful, we'll allow disembark to mean the same thing as placing the unit. It's not an assumption, it's an allowance based on an edition change.
Note when the hits happen. Note when the placement/disembarking happens.

I'm perfectly willing to agree with you that the unit cannot disembark and therefore the Night Scythe rule is useless. There's no conflict, it just doesn't work in 6th edition.

rigeld2 wrote:

Aycee71 wrote:
Also for the person who earlier says that by me bringing that up even more proves their point, I disagree. I brought that point up to show that the rule set in the BRB and the rule set in the codex do not agree on the sequence of events. If you follow strictly RAW, the contradiction between the two rule sets represent badly written rules. If you argue that they take the hits you are making just as many assumptions about how the rules work as those that agree that they do not take the hits.

Not true. Since the Night Scythe rule only functions when the unit disembarks, it's literally useless in 6th edition. That's one (valid) way to read the RAW.
To make it useful, we'll allow disembark to mean the same thing as placing the unit. It's not an assumption, it's an allowance based on an edition change.
Note when the hits happen. Note when the placement/disembarking happens.

I'm perfectly willing to agree with you that the unit cannot disembark and therefore the Night Scythe rule is useless. There's no conflict, it just doesn't work in 6th edition.

The way the codex entry for Night Scythe worked in 5th edition replaced the entire Destroyed effect on passengers with the Codex version (i.e. no pinning test, no models destroyed because they can't disembark, etc.)

Destroyed – wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then
take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark
are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

So, the "valid" allowance would be to do the same thing, replace the entire rule with the codex version, just like 5th Edition. Deciding to apply part of the new rule and then insert the old rule where you think they intended, is not an allowance, that is RAI or at least how someone thinks they intend the rule.

When a FAQ comes out about this, we will know what was intended. Until then, we either throw out the codex rule or we use it in place of the BRB rule.