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Thank you for you observations. This is exactly why I value alternate opinions. No matter how right something may seem, there may be another perspective that is missed.

I did have another thought though, and I think it was mentioned earlier on a previous tread related to this topic, but I'm not sure. Assuming that any wounds were taken on a necron unit during a night scythe destruction , wouldn't those models be removed as a casualty, which would trigger an RP roll? If so, how would the RP counters and unit coherency be dealt with? The Night Scythe rule says to put survivors in reserve, and RP say to put counters on the table. This seems to break the game.

I would assume that there would be no counters since the unit would be in reserve. And there is no RP rule for units in reserve.

It just makes 0 sense from a fluff stand point, that they would take the wounds and then appear elsewhere("Sir it looks like were about to crash" "Well then we should definitely jump through the wormhole and crash, then using our now incinerated teleportation technology we should teleport to the other side of the field so that we can't possibly hold that objective." "But sir wouldn't it make more sense to just enter from that side anyway? Or stay here and try and hold the objective" " Shut-up you, were Newcrons now, not cold calculating logical crons anymore"). Which is why them taking the hits is not rules as intended.

Not often does it happen where the fluff states one thing that the rules then proceed to do the opposite.

The crons are never aboard(fluff wise) and thus in the world of the fluff wouldn't take damage from the flyer crashing. With the people that I play with( a friendly group) we play with rules how they are intended to be played, I mean the fluff is there to direct a narrative not lie to you.

Now then if I play with a rules lawyer I'll play with them taking hits, cause I'm not a dick and wouldn't want to argue over what amounts to plastic toys that are played to have fun. I mean if I really wanted to we could go over every single rule and figure out all the ways to exploit every rule, but that just seems time consuming and not very fun.

I am sure that a future faq will sort this out, I mean for all I know the way people are saying the Nightscythe works, with the transported units taking str10 hits then going into reserves, could just be a crippling downside to the Nightscythe that was intended to justify it's point cost. I really really doubt it, but maybe.

But if people want to get super technical and do everything purely raw for their benefit, then hopefully they have the decency to tell you before hand so that you can write your list accordingly. I mean it would be kind of a dick move to rule lawyer someone after they brought their army unaware and you built yours to take advantage of said weakness.

Pdelski wrote:
The Night Scythe rule says to put survivors in reserve, and RP say to put counters on the table. This seems to break the game.

The game doesn't break.
A similar situation can already happen.

Unit of Deathmarks with a Veiltek are in the path of a Volcanic Eruption (page 367) and have 3 models fail the initiative test and die. 3 counters are placed.

The unit decides to Veil to another marked target but rolls poorly for scatter, generating a mishap. They roll a 4 on the mishap table, placing the unit in Ongoing Reserves.
What happens to the RP tokens? Does the game break, or are the tokens removed because there's no way for them to be placed in coherency?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Punisher wrote:
It just makes 0 sense from a fluff stand point, that they would take the wounds and then appear elsewhere("Sir it looks like were about to crash" "Well then we should definitely jump through the wormhole and crash, then using our now incinerated teleportation technology we should teleport to the other side of the field so that we can't possibly hold that objective." "But sir wouldn't it make more sense to just enter from that side anyway? Or stay here and try and hold the objective" " Shut-up you, were Newcrons now, not cold calculating logical crons anymore"). Which is why them taking the hits is not rules as intended.

Yeah, it's completely impossible for the destruction of the portal to cause any kind of backlash through it and be destroyed. If it was, surely there'd be some fluff written about it!
Oh. There was. Oops.

Not often does it happen where the fluff states one thing that the rules then proceed to do the opposite.

Shadows in the Warp. Doom of Malantai.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
But RAI they don't. Stop trying to say RAW > RAI . It isn't.

Good thing you aren't being taken seriously right now. (see i can hurl insults without contributing as well) dozer, I know you want this to happen the way you are but you need to explain a few things to your adversarial view point in order to gain creditability which the RAW crew has done here.

RAI is always a slope that makes you look foolish because you would think RAI a smoke screen from a rhino could used during a shooting attack, or searchlights for that matter, hell in fluff an ork should survive his head being decapitated and thus should have FNP. The reason why a large porition do not accept RAI as this circumstance is these reason

GW painstakingly explains the terms disembark and place right within the Vehicle Damage results.

All passengers now have to DISEMBARK if the vehicle wrecks, Except for flyers which take the Crash and Burn Result.

All Passengers now have to BE PLACED WITHIN if the vehicle Explodes, Except for flyer which take the Crash and Burn Result.

It doesn't matter if you think the necron's are waiting off world at this time. If you actually read these rules i just stated which determine everything in the game, Movement phase, Shooting Phase, Assault phase are all determined by the BRB and the fact that tourneys backing the decision of RAW is the only viable way to play this till GW offically says something otherwise. I know your rule in 5th edition was cool, but in 5th edition it was merely a skimmer which couldn't fly 36 inches, and disembark it's unit right then and there 6 additional inches. Because it no longer is a skimmer is unfortunately became the flyer which is an amazing vehicle in all ways except this caveat to the rules.

So Dozer, please if you aren't going to come up with a counter arguement please see yourself out of the argument. You are just looking like an ass

rigeld2 wrote:

Yeah, it's completely impossible for the destruction of the portal to cause any kind of backlash through it and be destroyed. If it was, surely there'd be some fluff written about it!
Oh. There was. Oops.

Not often does it happen where the fluff states one thing that the rules then proceed to do the opposite.

Shadows in the Warp. Doom of Malantai.

Yes cause that was competely about the necrons and how the Nightscyhes work and is totally related /sarcasm.

Seriously though, the necrons aren't even mentioned. Not sure what you were getting at.

Punisher wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yeah, it's completely impossible for the destruction of the portal to cause any kind of backlash through it and be destroyed. If it was, surely there'd be some fluff written about it!
Oh. There was. Oops.

Not often does it happen where the fluff states one thing that the rules then proceed to do the opposite.

Shadows in the Warp. Doom of Malantai.

Yes cause that was competely about the necrons and how the Nightscyhes work and is totally related /sarcasm.

The fluff for Shadows says its everywhere, disrupting communications and Psykers for light years around... But rules wise it can't penetrate a tin can. WAT.

The Doom of Malanntai essentially singlehandedly destroyed an Eldar Craftworld. Rules-wise he's not even close.

Seriously though, the necrons aren't even mentioned. Not sure what you were getting at.

There's been a reference a few times to a BL book (I think - cant find it atm) where a Night Scythe is destroyed and there's feedback through the portal, damaging/destroying the waiting Necrons.

Punisher wrote:
It just makes 0 sense from a fluff stand point, that they would take the wounds and then appear elsewhere("Sir it looks like were about to crash" "Well then we should definitely jump through the wormhole and crash, then using our now incinerated teleportation technology we should teleport to the other side of the field so that we can't possibly hold that objective." "But sir wouldn't it make more sense to just enter from that side anyway? Or stay here and try and hold the objective" " Shut-up you, were Newcrons now, not cold calculating logical crons anymore"). Which is why them taking the hits is not rules as intended.

Not often does it happen where the fluff states one thing that the rules then proceed to do the opposite.

The crons are never aboard(fluff wise) and thus in the world of the fluff wouldn't take damage from the flyer crashing. With the people that I play with( a friendly group) we play with rules how they are intended to be played, I mean the fluff is there to direct a narrative not lie to you.

Now then if I play with a rules lawyer I'll play with them taking slowed hits, cause I'm not a dick and wouldn't want to argue over plastic toys that are played to have fun. I mean if I really wanted to we could go over every single rule and figure out all the ways to exploit every rule, but that just seems time consuming and not very fun.

I am sure that a future faq will sort this out, I mean for all I know the way people are saying the Nightscythe works, with the transported units taking str10 hits then going into reserves, could just be a crippling downside to the Nightscythe that was intended to justify it's point cost. I really really doubt it, but maybe.

But if people want to get super technical and do everything purely raw for their benefit, then hopefully they have the decency to tell you before hand so that you can write your list accordingly. I mean it would be kind of a dick move to rule lawyer someone after they brought their army unaware and you built yours to take advantage of said weakness.

From a forging a narrative stand point you are giving yourself an element of absolute control. Too many factors are unknown in a RP standpoint, and the stories have shown stories to support the main rulebook but here allow me to explain how it is entirely possible to have this rule make sense from a storyline perspective.

Moving through the air like a knife through flesh, Sorotek of the Tombworld Styx sends his order to take out it's objective on the Tau sept world of Aquain-42. Analyzing the battlefield it suggests that necron soliders will be arriving after the strike of Sorotek's Night scythe climbs to a high altitude to remain unnoticed and send imagery of the battlefield to the crypteks for assessments. Drawning within a mile or so of the enemy battleline the weapons batteries hum with necrotic energies as they unleash a volley of electricity upon the Pathfinders holding in treeline waiting for the Necron foot solider advance. The weapons fire and have carved through the armor of these snipers and the last reminders of their bodies lay dismembered in agony on the battlefield for anyone who dares draw close to the Necron. Drawing close to the objective set forth scanners relay the crisis suit commander understanding the offensive against their capital tomb, Shas'O Tumery. Increasing speed and charging the portal as it begins another dive bomb suddenly the crafty tau commander uncloaks a mysterious turret to the Necron as it charges up 4 fragmentation plasma casters (made up term i know) unleashing a salvo of chilled plasma in all directions toward the nightscythe. But it's too late, without time to dodge the volley the blue arrows punch through the formidable just tearing open it's engines suddenly coling in and dragging the unit in stand by into it's malfunctionin hull and before time is even able to be assessed for escape the hull comes crashing down! Only two Deathmarks designated as Tumery's hunters manage to re-activate the portal in time and escape their firey tomb the rest of their unit however haven't... the Tau's Gambit now costs Necron Lord Sorotek dearly... but so too will the Tau pay for this for the horde now approaches ready for vengeance

(excuse typos i don't plan to make this a masterpiece)

rigeld2 wrote:

The fluff for Shadows says its everywhere, disrupting communications and Psykers for light years around... But rules wise it can't penetrate a tin can. WAT.

The Doom of Malanntai essentially singlehandedly destroyed an Eldar Craftworld. Rules-wise he's not even close.

Ah ok that context makes more sense. But that's just rules adding in special characters so that you can play them, I mean you can defeat a swarmlord, but in the fluff you can't. I mean the necrons in the last codex fielded literal gods that could be taken out reliably by a 5 man scout sniper squad. A characters strength adjusts to the tabletop all the time. What doesn't happen often is GW saying that the necrons who are supposedly on another planet crash and burn when a nightscythe crashes... It just doesn't make any sense.

Punisher wrote:
But if people want to get super technical and do everything purely raw for their benefit, then hopefully they have the decency to tell you before hand so that you can write your list accordingly. I mean it would be kind of a dick move to rule lawyer someone after they brought their army unaware and you built yours to take advantage of said weakness.

Playing by the rules isn't being a rules lawyer, nor does it mean someone benefits over someone else. If this were the case then 40k would be played just like Inquisitor, "Here's some rules, but feel free to do what you want to make the story right". That kind of ruleset doesn't work in a competitive environment.

At no point before a game should anyone have to say "Hey I play by the rules in the rulebook, is that ok?"

IamCaboose wrote:

Punisher wrote:
But if people want to get super technical and do everything purely raw for their benefit, then hopefully they have the decency to tell you before hand so that you can write your list accordingly. I mean it would be kind of a dick move to rule lawyer someone after they brought their army unaware and you built yours to take advantage of said weakness.

Playing by the rules isn't being a rules lawyer, nor does it mean someone benefits over someone else. If this were the case then 40k would be played just like Inquisitor, "Here's some rules, but feel free to do what you want to make the story right". That kind of ruleset doesn't work in a competitive environment.

At no point before a game should anyone have to say "Hey I play by the rules in the rulebook, is that ok?"

But it does mean someone benefits over someone else, cause if they interpreted the rules differently then when they came up with their list it didn't account for instance loosing all their troops when the transport blew up. In a competitive environment I agree that the rules should be set and that both parties should be informed of muddled rulings before either is required to submit a list. So for a tournament both players should be aware of how the nightscythe will be ruled, and if both know beforehand thats fair. But in a LGS where 2 different interpretations can be made prior to the game there is a definite advantage for one.

Your right that no one should have to say "Hey I play by the rules in the rulebook, is that ok?" but on a rule that is a muddled as this is(just look at how many threads are on this and people arguing both sides) there should be a understanding before the game is played/lists drawn out.

Punisher wrote:
Ah ok that context makes more sense. But that's just rules adding in special characters so that you can play them, I mean you can defeat a swarmlord, but in the fluff you can't. I mean the necrons in the last codex fielded literal gods that could be taken out reliably by a 5 man scout sniper squad. A characters strength adjusts to the tabletop all the time. What doesn't happen often is GW saying that the necrons who are supposedly on another planet crash and burn when a nightscythe crashes... It just doesn't make any sense.

The Swarmlord dies all the time - even in his fluff. He's just immortal because the Hive Mind keeps recreating him.
And as I said - GW has said that. I just can't remember which book. It's been mentioned in almost every one of these Night Scythe threads.
And I've described how it "makes sense." You're just refusing to accept that.

I'm sure if I had the time is find another example of fluff not being anywhere near rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Punisher wrote:
Your right that no one should have to say "Hey I play by the rules in the rulebook, is that ok?" but on a rule that is a muddled as this is(just look at how many threads are on this and people arguing both sides) there should be a understanding before the game is played/lists drawn out.

The way I read the rules, Tyranids always win. I can't show you using rules why that is, you should just accept that's how the rules work.

That's essentially what the "no hits" side is doing - RAW has been shown over and over, and it always falls to "but the fluff!"
Good. Great even. But if I sit down to a game, the first thing on my mind is not going to be "Hmmm... If he plays by the fluff I can rules lawyer him and kill all his dudemen!"

People are arguing the "no hits" side purely from fluff at this point. The rule isn't muddled, some people just refuse to accept that the fluff doesn't always fit the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

That's essentially what the "no hits" side is doing - RAW has been shown over and over, and it always falls to "but the fluff!"
Good. Great even. But if I sit down to a game, the first thing on my mind is not going to be "Hmmm... If he plays by the fluff I can rules lawyer him and kill all his dudemen!"

People are arguing the "no hits" side purely from fluff at this point. The rule isn't muddled, some people just refuse to accept that the fluff doesn't always fit the rules.

Well technically to remove a casualty you have to remove a model from the board and since the models are never on the board(there not allowed to disembark)...The only other way casualties occur is if they remain in reserve at the end of the game. But now your saying that reserved units take casualties during the game... How can a wound be passed to a unit in reserve it doesn't really.

The rules are muddled, there are plenty of ways to interpret what is said because there is no order given to what is happening or any information on how to deal with models not on the table like in this example.

This is simply something that should be clarified by both parties before the game takes place or else you just are TFG at your LGS. I mean I have said that I play by your version of RAW even though I don't agree with it, if my opponent plays that way and I have been informed beforehand.

It's not just fluff it's murky rules and the only fair way is for both parties to be on the same understanding prior to a match. Now if this is a tournament then both players should have in their own time found out the rulings that would be used(ya know contact the tournament organizers or read any FAQ they may have).

Punisher wrote:
Well technically to remove a casualty you have to remove a model from the board and since the models are never on the board(there not allowed to disembark)...The only other way casualties occur is if they remain in reserve at the end of the game. But now your saying that reserved units take casualties during the game... How can a wound be passed to a unit in reserve it doesn't really.

No, models are removed from play as a casualty, not necessarily from the board.

The rules are muddled, there are plenty of ways to interpret what is said because there is no order given to what is happening or any information on how to deal with models not on the table like in this example.

They are on the board. They're an embarked unit per the rules. To say they aren't is plain wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

Punisher wrote:
Well technically to remove a casualty you have to remove a model from the board and since the models are never on the board(there not allowed to disembark)...The only other way casualties occur is if they remain in reserve at the end of the game. But now your saying that reserved units take casualties during the game... How can a wound be passed to a unit in reserve it doesn't really.

No, models are removed from play as a casualty, not necessarily from the board.

The rules are muddled, there are plenty of ways to interpret what is said because there is no order given to what is happening or any information on how to deal with models not on the table like in this example.

They are on the board. They're an embarked unit per the rules. To say they aren't is plain wrong.

Well then it just comes down to a order of operations, what happens first? Since the disembarking is no longer apart of 6th rules since the flyers are now different when does the nightscythes unit enter reserves? One could argue that they enter reserves prior to the unit receiving the hit since disembarking is now a vague/useless reference point. One could also argue that they take the hit before they are moved to reserves. All I am saying is that the rules are murky and can be interpreted different ways. And with murky rules you and your opponent should discuss them on a case by case basis because they may disagree with your train of thought.

Now I personally believe that they don't take the hits and enter reserves first, cause that makes more sense to me fluff wise. But from a balance perspective them taking the hits before being reserved could help turn the meta away from flyer spam which is a very good thing. There are pros to both sides, and two different ways of looking at it. I mean if you really really wanted to you could say that since the nightscythes says the unit can't disembark and the BRB says "any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties." you could say the necrons are just dead. But again that just doesn't seem right.

Punisher wrote:
Since the disembarking is no longer apart of 6th rules since the flyers are now different when does the nightscythes unit enter reserves?

Technically? Never. They take the hits and are placed on the table. Of course this means if any one model survives the unit will be able to roll for RP since there will be counters on the table. However, if you want the survivor(s) to be placed in Reserve and not get to roll RP that is fine by me.

Happyjew wrote:

Punisher wrote:
Since the disembarking is no longer apart of 6th rules since the flyers are now different when does the nightscythes unit enter reserves?

Technically? Never. They take the hits and are placed on the table. Of course this means if any one model survives the unit will be able to roll for RP since there will be counters on the table. However, if you want the survivor(s) to be placed in Reserve and not get to roll RP that is fine by me.

Or are they just placed in reserves? The section says "If the nightscythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve" since disembark is now meaningless the instead clause still activates. So if the nightscythe is destroyed the embarked unit enters reserve. There is no timing given so it could be interpreted as immediately or after other factors, there is no order given. So you could interpret it as the unit just goes into reserves and you can't wound units in reserves, they're no longer on the table/battlefield.

I've shown that the rules equate disembarking and placing. Therefore your most recent argument fails.

Punisher wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Punisher wrote:
Since the disembarking is no longer apart of 6th rules since the flyers are now different when does the nightscythes unit enter reserves?

Technically? Never. They take the hits and are placed on the table. Of course this means if any one model survives the unit will be able to roll for RP since there will be counters on the table. However, if you want the survivor(s) to be placed in Reserve and not get to roll RP that is fine by me.

Or are they just placed in reserves? The section says "If the nightscythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve" since disembark is now meaningless the instead clause still activates. So if the nightscythe is destroyed the embarked unit enters reserve. There is no timing given so it could be interpreted as immediately or after other factors, there is no order given. So you could interpret it as the unit just goes into reserves and you can't wound units in reserves, they're no longer on the table/battlefield.

If you don't disembark, you cannot do something instead of disembarking.

Happyjew wrote:

Punisher wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Punisher wrote:
Since the disembarking is no longer apart of 6th rules since the flyers are now different when does the nightscythes unit enter reserves?

Technically? Never. They take the hits and are placed on the table. Of course this means if any one model survives the unit will be able to roll for RP since there will be counters on the table. However, if you want the survivor(s) to be placed in Reserve and not get to roll RP that is fine by me.

Or are they just placed in reserves? The section says "If the nightscythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve" since disembark is now meaningless the instead clause still activates. So if the nightscythe is destroyed the embarked unit enters reserve. There is no timing given so it could be interpreted as immediately or after other factors, there is no order given. So you could interpret it as the unit just goes into reserves and you can't wound units in reserves, they're no longer on the table/battlefield.

If you don't disembark, you cannot do something instead of disembarking.

Your not disembarking, you never were disembarking. The disembark reference is just and always has been a reference to when the unit goes into reserve.

Old way (5th) that it happened. Transport blew up, crons can't disembark, go to reserve. New way, transport blows up crons can't disembark(against the BRB and codex), go to reserve.

It's not a then they do this statement its just a statement, the disembark was just giving you a timing aspect which has now been removed so it can occur whenever so long as it is after the nightscythe is wreck/destroyed. It could happen never, it could happen immediately. The rules vague and is why so many people have differing opinions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
I've shown that the rules equate disembarking and placing. Therefore your most recent argument fails.

Well then you would be wrong. Disembarking =/= placing they are very different in this edition.

Just look at the section of effect of damage on passengers section in the BRB for transports(page 80). It states in wrecked that the passengers disembark but when it explodes they are placed. Showing that there is a difference between disembarking and being placed. You can't disembark from a vehicle if there is no vehicle, you are simply placed in it's ruins.

Punisher wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I've shown that the rules equate disembarking and placing. Therefore your most recent argument fails.

Well then you would be wrong. Disembarking =/= placing they are very different in this edition.

Just look at the section of effect of damage on passengers section in the BRB for transports(page 80). It states in wrecked that the passengers disembark but when it explodes they are placed. Showing that there is a difference between disembarking and being placed. You can't disembark from a vehicle if there is no vehicle, you are simply placed in it's ruins.

rigeld2 wrote:

Aycee71 wrote:
My whole point is that claiming that they take the S10 hits is just as much an interpretation of rules as well as claiming that they don't take the S10 hits. When you look at all the rules you cannot make a clear case in either direction. However, if you look at subsequent rules and how they interact, it breaks less rules by placing the Necrons in reserve. There is no clear case of RAW. It is all RAI.

No, it doesn't.

To make them take the hits all you have to do is go with the fact that placing models is the same as disembarking. We have clues for that - the exploded vehicle FAQ being the best one.

Page 426 – The Game Summary, Transport Vehicles and Their
Passengers, Explodes (Other Effects).
Change the entry to read “The unit takes a number of Strength
4 AP – hits equal to the number of models in the unit.
Surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be
and must take a Pinning test.”

Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy
turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80)
A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault Vehicle

Destroyed references both Explodes! and Wrecked results. Here we have "passengers are placed" equated with disembarking.

To make them go straight to reserve you must ignore a sentence, then apply the NS rule.


One of these methods ignores nothing and has rules support. The other ignores a sentence for no reason.

It's like I didn't already say this on page 2. Oh wait - I did.
Destroyed means both wrecked and explodes. Explodes places models, and yet the next FAQ asks about disembarking from a destroyed vehicle.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Dozer - again, noone is saying hey are "official". However one side has the rules spot on, the other doesnt and just has very, very flaky "RAI" that isnt close to 100% reliable...

That's quite rich seeing your track record versus GW errata and FAQs.

What, spot on with rules, until they change them? You are acting like you are the all knowing Oracle of GWs RAI, when that is patently crap.

I can accept when GW changes rules, and that they have done so - I'm good with that. Same as they will have to do in this case IF they want them to escape the hits - which a BL book (better RAI than you can come up with, king of RAI that you are) says they take.

Can you contriibute something to this thread in line with the tenets of this forum? Possibly?

rigeld2 wrote:

Punisher wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I've shown that the rules equate disembarking and placing. Therefore your most recent argument fails.

Well then you would be wrong. Disembarking =/= placing they are very different in this edition.

Just look at the section of effect of damage on passengers section in the BRB for transports(page 80). It states in wrecked that the passengers disembark but when it explodes they are placed. Showing that there is a difference between disembarking and being placed. You can't disembark from a vehicle if there is no vehicle, you are simply placed in it's ruins.

rigeld2 wrote:

Aycee71 wrote:
My whole point is that claiming that they take the S10 hits is just as much an interpretation of rules as well as claiming that they don't take the S10 hits. When you look at all the rules you cannot make a clear case in either direction. However, if you look at subsequent rules and how they interact, it breaks less rules by placing the Necrons in reserve. There is no clear case of RAW. It is all RAI.

No, it doesn't.

To make them take the hits all you have to do is go with the fact that placing models is the same as disembarking. We have clues for that - the exploded vehicle FAQ being the best one.

Page 426 – The Game Summary, Transport Vehicles and Their
Passengers, Explodes (Other Effects).
Change the entry to read “The unit takes a number of Strength
4 AP – hits equal to the number of models in the unit.
Surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be
and must take a Pinning test.”

Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy
turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80)
A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault Vehicle

Destroyed references both Explodes! and Wrecked results. Here we have "passengers are placed" equated with disembarking.

To make them go straight to reserve you must ignore a sentence, then apply the NS rule.


One of these methods ignores nothing and has rules support. The other ignores a sentence for no reason.

It's like I didn't already say this on page 2. Oh wait - I did.
Destroyed means both wrecked and explodes. Explodes places models, and yet the next FAQ asks about disembarking from a destroyed vehicle.

Your still wrong technically a unit can only disembark from a wrecked transport. So even though the destroyed references both of the results, you only disembark from 1 of those results the wrecked one and thus technically the answer only relates to the wrecked result, since it talks of the disembarked passengers which only come from a wrecked transport.
Using this train of thought the question of can you assault out of a exploded transport is still up in the air since it doesn't talk about the models from an exploded transport and following pure raw they can probably still assault. Not that I would ever play that way or try to enforce that technicality upon someone.

That's fair - then the Night Scythe rule does nothing as you never disembark.
Ill play against your Necrons if that's what you want to do.

So there the interpretation that the Night Scythe rule does nothing and you can declare an assault from the crater of your exploded transport (even if it wasn't an Assault Vehicle), and you suffer no effects from Stunned or Shaken while in the crater...

Or

Te reason they use "placed" instead of "disembark" is because the mechanic is different, but the results are the same, and they're equating the result.

Which way uses actual rules, doesn't twist anything, and ignores nothing........ Hmmmmmmm...

rigeld2 wrote:
That's fair - then the Night Scythe rule does nothing as you never disembark.
Ill play against your Necrons if that's what you want to do.

So there the interpretation that the Night Scythe rule does nothing and you can declare an assault from the crater of your exploded transport (even if it wasn't an Assault Vehicle), and you suffer no effects from Stunned or Shaken while in the crater...

Or

Te reason they use "placed" instead of "disembark" is because the mechanic is different, but the results are the same, and they're equating the result.

Which way uses actual rules, doesn't twist anything, and ignores nothing........ Hmmmmmmm...

Thats not what I said in relation to the night scythe it's that the timing could occur anytime after the vehicle is downed cause it doesn't state anymore so it could happen immediately or after the str10 hits depending on different perspectives. They would still go into reserves or the game would hang waiting, forever in your suggestion, for the nightscythe rule to occur.

The transport assaulting out is just raw how it is written. Your the one now making assumptions as to what GW means rather than what is written. Which is why you can't really play a game purely based on raw, cause you get issues like this. Where GW's fact clearly intends to not allow assaults after destroyed vehicles but it does allow them after exploded vehicles if you play it based purely upon raw.

Punisher wrote:
Thats not what I said in relation to the night scythe it's that the timing could occur anytime after the vehicle is downed cause it doesn't state anymore so it could happen immediately or after the str10 hits depending on different perspectives. They would still go into reserves or the game would hang waiting, forever in your suggestion, for the nightscythe rule to occur.

No, really the rule would do nothing. There's no waiting or the Night Scythe rule to happen because the trigger (destroyed and disembarking) can never happen.

The transport assaulting out is just raw how it is written. Your the one now making assumptions as to what GW means rather than what is written. Which is why you can't really play a game purely based on raw, cause you get issues like this. Where GW's fact clearly intends to not allow assaults after destroyed vehicles but it does allow them after exploded vehicles if you play it based purely upon raw.

You do understand the difference between absolute RAW and RAW where the game works, right? One is unplayable, the other uses context to decipher meaning.

RAW where the game works has the Necron unit take the hits and go into reserve. Absolute RAW has units getting out of exploded non-Assault Vehicles ignoring Shaken, Stunned, and Asssault restrictions, and the Necron Night Scythe rule absolutely useless.

Arguing the fluff for the NS creates more problems than it solves, IMO. You'd also try to avoid passengers being affected by a Stunned/Shaken result, and an embarked IC who might have an effect measured from the hull can't if he' not there.

Thing is, nothing in the rules allows you to avoid anything beyond being dumped on the table. Nothing says you're immune to other passenger effects, nothing says you can't have passenger benefits where applicable.

The thing is even labeled a transport, passengers disembark and can re-embark later. Making up a whole list of things that don't work when you could just use the existing rules seems a bit odd.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, just possibly, thats what the rules say.

Protip: claiming people are arguing due to X hate is likely to result in your "contribution" to the thread being ignored as irrelevant. For all you know there are necron players arguing for the hits (there are, or at least 1, but dont let facts get in the way of your rant)

Look I'm all for doing things the right away as long as it doesn't mean I have to be willfully ignorant at the same time. I enforce rules upon myself that my opponent isn't aware of all the time just as I argue for what is right regardless of what factions I play. I spent alot of time arguing for Pod armies to truly remain Pod armies even though there was a bunch of rules lawyers out there trying to screw them over.

My question to the 24/7 RAW crowd is this. Are you going to tell your opponent that their Wraithsword does nothing? There are only rules for Wraith Blades.

Just be a reasonable sport about it.

I see now that what this forum is really about is arguing about technicalities instead of trying to figure out what is the fair thing to do.

I just don't understand why people want to spend so much time playing toy soldiers but try to spoil it for others. It's cool though just do what makes you happy. Luckily the TOs from major events generally don't seem to feel the same way. I don't see alot of asinine rulings at any of the bigger GTs.

rigeld2 wrote:

Punisher wrote:
Thats not what I said in relation to the night scythe it's that the timing could occur anytime after the vehicle is downed cause it doesn't state anymore so it could happen immediately or after the str10 hits depending on different perspectives. They would still go into reserves or the game would hang waiting, forever in your suggestion, for the nightscythe rule to occur.

No, really the rule would do nothing. There's no waiting or the Night Scythe rule to happen because the trigger (destroyed and disembarking) can never happen.

Except that the disembarking is not a prerequisite to go into reserve. The nightscythe being destroyed is. The order of operations remains the same as it was in 5th. Nightscythe is destroyed, necrons cannot disembark due to its codex, necrons go into reserve. Now it's Nightscythe is destroyed, necrons cannot disembark due to codex and BRB not have a disembark option here, necrons go into reserve. The only difference is that now there is no regular unit disembarking time so then it can easily be argued that once the nightscythe is destroyed the crons go into reserve without waiting for any other factors to occur.

Punisher wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Punisher wrote:
Thats not what I said in relation to the night scythe it's that the timing could occur anytime after the vehicle is downed cause it doesn't state anymore so it could happen immediately or after the str10 hits depending on different perspectives. They would still go into reserves or the game would hang waiting, forever in your suggestion, for the nightscythe rule to occur.

No, really the rule would do nothing. There's no waiting or the Night Scythe rule to happen because the trigger (destroyed and disembarking) can never happen.

Except that the disembarking is not a prerequisite to go into reserve. The nightscythe being destroyed is. The order of operations remains the same as it was in 5th. Nightscythe is destroyed, necrons cannot disembark due to its codex, necrons go into reserve. Now it's Nightscythe is destroyed, necrons cannot disembark due to codex and BRB not have a disembark option here, necrons go into reserve. The only difference is that now there is no regular unit disembarking time so then it can easily be argued that once the nightscythe is destroyed the crons go into reserve without waiting for any other factors to occur.

Only if you read out of context. Or you live in a fantasy world made of lollipops and tootsie rolls. If it's the latter please let me know how to get there. As it is Place is ='s to disembark otherwise you break the rules according to the faqs