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I went to a great tournament over the weekend, bringing my WWP Dark Eldar. All the games I played were very close (thank God I avoided Necron flyer spam!). The one thing I did consistently for every game was forget to roll for my combat drugs as a Dark Eldar player. I would usually remember on turn 3, when my Wyches actually got into combat and I realized I didn't know what bonus they got. 2/3 of my opponents were kind enough to allow me to roll during the game when I had forgotten, but it got me thinking. What kinds of rules would a regular tournament attendee allow to be 'made-up' at a later time? Things like, "Oh, I forgot to run with that unit" once you have already assaulted with another unit. How much allowance do you usually give your opponent, and do you base it on whether the game is in hand or still pretty close? Be honest about that last bit, I know a lot of people that say they would allow a backtrack but when it's the final turn they suddenly aren't so forgiving.

You forget a rule, you passed it by, it gone.

You should never expect to be 'allowed' to make up a sitation post-mortem. You can never UNROLL a die IMHO.

Usually opponents might let you if it has minimal impact and doesn't require totally overwriting done actions... (like the starting assault forgot to run) but if it requires any rollback of actions like unrolling dice, then I would say you can't do it.

Also, if someone doesn't allow you to take back a move or fix up a missed rule, they are not jerks and should not be considered rude or unfair...

Personally, if I missed a rule or made a mistake where 'fixing' it would obviously be in my best interest, I eat it. If it is a mistake where my opponent obviously would benefit, I point it out as soon as I realize it and offer him the choice to 'fix it' should it be a fixible action.

That is my personal playstyle and it is hard to force that on 'events' so if there had to be a hard line, it would be 'no rollback for mistakes'. but I don't want official rules because then there is a tactical advantage in trying to 'forget' bad compulsary actions. I feel good players regulate themselves.

Pretty much this ^

If I forget something, I'll have to live with it. It sucks at the time, but I guarantee you won't forget it again. However, I'll give my opponent a break if he forgets to run or move something.

I agree that I wouldn't expect to be allowed anything that would cause 'rollbacks'. If you forgot that guy had a special rule, it's forgotten, otherwise it gets confusing or time consuming.

However, I'd think pretty low of people who refused things like Combat Drugs - I remember playing Sisters for a long time and I consistently forgot to roll Faith at the start of my turn - usually I'd have moved a unit or two. Of course, the rules say 'the start' and your opponent can hold you to that, I'd just think it pretty unsporting.

I'd always allow it, as long as it doesn't mean re-doing anything that's already been played/rolled.

A good thing to do to help prevent forgetting is write commonly forgotten things on your army list.
For example: Next to witches, in red ink on your list write "Roll drugs bro!"
My personal experience I forget what psychic powers I've casted a lot (especially with my Eldar Army) So I use Note Cards and other markers.
In the past I've always allowed other plays to roll their combat drugs even in late game, as they have allowed me to roll mine, but I can definitely see how this can become abusive, as I have personally assaulted Witches just to have them SUDDENLY gain Feel-No-Pain on Turn 2 due to a roll that was never made which altered the potential of success for my unit.

I always forget the Red Thirst when I'm playing with Blood Angels. Same goes for 1st Turn Night Fighting. We tend to just pass these things by.

I always give some leeway to small mistakes.

I always allow "rules" to be made up later, but not always tasks.
Remembering to Run is a task. Doing it after you get some charges off MAY be purposeful (I'll run this unit if I can lock up nearby units in HtH). If, on the other hand, you charge one unit on the other side of the table, THEN remember it, I'd probably allow it.

On the other hand, rolling for Drugs, Regeneration, Red Thirst, etc., are rules and I typically allow "back ups" on those, within reason. If you remember Thirst or Drugs the first time you charge - fine. No prob.
If you remember 3 turns worth of Regeneration later on in the game, I'll probably only agree to the most recent one.
If it gets out of hand, I'll politely say something about how we should probably not allow any more "go backs," just to keep the game going smoothly.

I'm pretty lenient in friendly games with my group, though. We tend to allow about anything, barring the "3 turns worth of regeneration" thing. : )

Eric

 MagickalMemories wrote:
I always allow "rules" to be made up later, but not always tasks.
Remembering to Run is a task. Doing it after you get some charges off MAY be purposeful (I'll run this unit if I can lock up nearby units in HtH). If, on the other hand, you charge one unit on the other side of the table, THEN remember it, I'd probably allow it.

On the other hand, rolling for Drugs, Regeneration, Red Thirst, etc., are rules and I typically allow "back ups" on those, within reason. If you remember Thirst or Drugs the first time you charge - fine. No prob.
If you remember 3 turns worth of Regeneration later on in the game, I'll probably only agree to the most recent one.
If it gets out of hand, I'll politely say something about how we should probably not allow any more "go backs," just to keep the game going smoothly.

I'm pretty lenient in friendly games with my group, though. We tend to allow about anything, barring the "3 turns worth of regeneration" thing. : )

Eric

Pretty much this and anything that I feel is a legitimate mistake as opposed to just trying to get an edge.

I'd allow anything that was mandatory like combat drugs and red thirst. If little to no gametime has passed, I don't mind returning to the 'correct' gamestate. I generally say no to anything that would have been optional. If the omission caused something that couldn't legally happen, like a Fearless unit falling back, then I insist on reverting to the correct gamestate.

I wouldn't just always say, you forgot, live with it, because sometimes it can be beneficial to forget the presence of a special rule. 'oh, this unit fell back out of combat from your grinder unit because I forgot it was fearless, so now I shoot your melee unit rather than being stuck in with a low melee ability fearless unit.'

I remember playing Blood Angels I ran across a few players that would wait to see if I declared Heroic Intervention before placing my Vanguard Veterans on the table. It got to the point where when I was picking them up to place them they'd declare I didn't invoke the rule in a timely fashion and claim I couldn't. Pathetic.

 MagickalMemories wrote:
I always allow "rules" to be made up later, but not always tasks.
Remembering to Run is a task. Doing it after you get some charges off MAY be purposeful (I'll run this unit if I can lock up nearby units in HtH). If, on the other hand, you charge one unit on the other side of the table, THEN remember it, I'd probably allow it.

On the other hand, rolling for Drugs, Regeneration, Red Thirst, etc., are rules and I typically allow "back ups" on those, within reason. If you remember Thirst or Drugs the first time you charge - fine. No prob.
If you remember 3 turns worth of Regeneration later on in the game, I'll probably only agree to the most recent one.
If it gets out of hand, I'll politely say something about how we should probably not allow any more "go backs," just to keep the game going smoothly.

I'm pretty lenient in friendly games with my group, though. We tend to allow about anything, barring the "3 turns worth of regeneration" thing. : )

Eric

This. If you forget a task OR mess up the order of a task (IG Orders), then I wont let you go back. However, army rules can be made up, they just would take effect then, rather than going back and redoing rolls.

First turn army stuff i may allow depending on the opponent but forget something and that's your issue not mine.

I will harp on my opponent to remember things in his army list such as twin-linked Multi-meltas if he has V. Hestan or whatever. Some people forget that and because it's a special rule, I enjoy reminding people of things like that. If he paid the points for it, then I can help him utilize them. Maybe one day Karma will come back to me and someone will remind me that I have melta bombs or something.

I am not as forgiving when it comes to letting him move his Fast Attack choice onto an objective in "The Scouring" if it's my turn, for example...... Or remember to shoot a unit when he's moved on to the assault phase. No going back! Accept the tactical brain fart.

The title asks about a tournament setting, and in such I would certainly not be expected to remind my opponent of X,Y or Z. If you forget in a tournament then you should expect that your opponent can say nope and you can't think terribly of them.

I personally, would allow such a thing as combat drugs to be rolled in game as it's something that is easily calculated and changed with minimal impact on the game. Would I allow a backwards speculation of that roll and drugs effecting previous turns, no.

I generally am happy for any changes to be made IN THE PHASE. For example, if someone makes a move with their tank and then realises it will effect their line of sight I am quite happy for them to change their infantry move slightly. Or if they realise their meltagun is at the front of the unit I don't mind at all them swopping it round as long as it complies with normal move rules. I don't uphold a touch piece move etc. However, the second a dice has been rolled for shooting then all figures are locked in place so to speak.

An interesting one is reserves, if someone forgets that their reserves come in.. this is interesting because in some cases you might want your unit to not come in. Say you have a troops choice that's going to be back camping, it's very easy to forget that 10 man cultist unit when your rolling for termies and heldrakes. But equally, you have a major advantage if you do forget your cultists, this could easily lead to an accusation of cheating that you accidently on purpose forgot. I guess the best thing as others said, make a list of your reserves and go down your list.. or some such

In a casual game I will let nearly anything go, to the extent of not pointing out a 6.3 inch move etc until it becomes an outrageous issue. I'm quite happy for people to quickly remember their reserves and bring their flyer in at the end of a movement phase, though I still won't go back a turn or so! I'll happily remind someone that their weapon is twinlinked etc, but equally it is not my responsibility, in some cases I don't know the rules of my opponents unit as thoroughly and I'm certainly not there to remember their preferred enemy etc!

The Real C-Hydra

You should expect no rolls to be permitted after the fact by the tournament organizers.

Asking your opponent if it's alright to correct something is OK to do, but take care in doing so ... it can lead to a game of "well you owe me" that can be unintentionally screwed up by EITHER side and result in bad feelings or a tone of game you really don't want to get into.

I TRY as a general rule to let my opponents "take back" whatever they forget or do wrong, in large part b/c despite some personal success, I can often be a VERY sloppy player as a tournament goes on and I get tired ... charity for charity is nice, and I've appreciated it, but it can also lead to hiccups when you're charitable for most of a game, and then suddenly one person feels compelled to stop being charitable when a mistake or forgotten move would determine the outcome of a game.

"Not as I do, but as I say," it's probably BEST not to ask for takebacks in a tournament setting, but it's CERTAINLY not ok to expect them or ask for them from the tournament itself (via organizers or judges). All such petitions should be kept to opponents, and should be done in a way that is civil and understanding of the fact that your opponent is in NO WAY wrong to say "no."

That's probably the biggest risk of it all ... is people taking advantage of it to bully opponents into letting them correct errors, for fear of seeming like douches if they don't allow it.

 phantommaster wrote:
I always forget the Red Thirst when I'm playing with Blood Angels. Same goes for 1st Turn Night Fighting. We tend to just pass these things by.

I always give some leeway to small mistakes.

Argh, me too! (About Red Thirst)

OP: I'd let you roll your combat drugs . As MM stated, it's a rule, not a task.

But for thirst if I forget I forget the Whole Game . Need to get a reminder token...

If it is something I forgot I'll ask my opponent if it is OK. If it is something he forgot I'll remember if he ever told me yes or no in a previous game and recoprocate in kind.

Some brain farts are easier to decide than others. Reserves are a biggie since if you both have fliers it is usually beneficial for your opponents planes to be on the table first. At least it is for my 3TLLC Vendettas. If my opponent starts moving I'll remind him he has reserve rolls to make.

I quite consitently forget to deploy my Chooser of the Slain before deployment, and about half the time manage to forget to choose Preferred Enemy for my Wolf Priest. So far, everyone I've played has been fairly forgiving about stuff like that.

As a personal rule, I'll generally allow an opponent to go back and do anything that won't cause hassles to resolve now, unless they're being unpleasant (which hasn't happened all that often, really).

For stuff that I forget, I'll mention it and leave it up to them. If they offer to let me go back and do it, great. If they don't, well, too bad, move on.

For compulsory actions that are supposed to occur at a specific time, people are generally ok with it. For less critical stuff, like forgetting to shoot with a unit, I would say probably about half of the times it's come up opponent's have said to just go ahead and do it... but I don't hold it against them if they don't. My fault for forgetting.

If I forget to shoot a unit (move, etc.), and realize later, I will say something like, "Dang. I forgot to <xyz> that unit." If my opponent chimes in that I can go back and do it, I will. If they don't, I respond with something like, "Ah, well. It's my own fault. I should have remembered."

Things like DE drugs, CSM mutations, etc., I will specifically ask to be able to do them, since it's something I was supposed to do, per game/codex rules.

Eric

You should never expect an allowance in a tournament. If you forget a beneficial rule, too bad.

That said, it's a pretty small chunk of players that won't allow stuff. Guys that stick to rules no matter what, guys that are hungry to "win," and just general TFG. Also, for true top table stuff, where prizes are on the line, it's understandable to be stricter. I've had times in my life that winning a tournament was one of the only ways I could afford new 40k stuff, so I was less willing to say "it's just a game."

Now, if it's the third round and you and your opponent are both 1-1 for the day, the standards might be looser. Unless, of course, one player wants to salvage some sort of win.

In friendly games? Why wouldn't you? Gaining an advantage because of poor bookkeeping isn't tremendously friendly.

In tournament prep games? You shouldn't even take a take back. You need to learn!

When I've played in the small tournaments I've played in, I let people take missed shots, run, etc. Of course, they are smaller, casual tournaments meant to introduce 6th edition. Fortunately, most of my opponents have been pretty cool, so I don't mind.

If it were a bigger tournament or the prize pool was more lucrative, I might be a little less flexible. If I play an army like Blood Angels, I try to remind people about things I'm familiar with, like Red Thirst.

IMO, learn a lesson from MTG and divide it between "may" and "must" actions:

Optional actions/rules/etc can not be taken back/fixed/etc under any circumstances.* For example, if you forget to do IG orders, too bad, it's an optional action and you decided not to. Of course there's no penalty for this, other than not getting to do what you forgot to do.

Mandatory actions MUST be fixed if possible. They are not optional and there is no ability to choose not to take them, so what happens depends on how far things have gone:

If the action can easily be fixed without disrupting the game state significantly (for example, forgetting to make one of your reserves rolls but catching it while you're still in the movement phase), you go back and do it. Maintaining the correct game state takes priority, and as long as you can get to that correct game state without undoing previous actions that's exactly what you should do.

If the action can't be fixed without disrupting the game state significantly (for example, forgetting that your unit has Fearless and shouldn't have fallen back from combat two turns ago), you ignore the mistake and get a penalty for failure to maintain a correct game state**.

If your opponent knew about your mistake and failed to correct it they get the same penalty for failure to maintain a correct game state. "Forgetting" a rule because it helps you is cheating.


*Obviously individual players may choose to be generous and allow their opponents to go back and fix an optional thing they missed, but they're under no obligation to do so and the opponent should not complain if they aren't allowed to.

**In MTG the first penalty is just a warning, and that's how it should be. Once a player has established a trend of "mistakes" then it should move up to game losses and eventual removal from the event.

In a tournament setting i tend not to allow my fix/alter things he forgot to do like assault. Now typically i am willing too, but i had a experience. It was during FoB turny and i was playing deamons.

Having massacred my first round and he to grey knights, we went at it. In all the heated action, i forgot to assault a unit of pink horrors with my nob bikers who were 2 inches away. We already started rolling for Kan assault and i went to assault with my bikers, and he told me i couldn't. I asked why, and it was because i didn't push everything into combat in one go. A newbie mistake for a player as i, but it stung. I still won that match with a major victory. At another turny we had a similar match up, but he forgot to assault with a khorne deathstar thingy into a guard squad and i said he couldnt do it, for the same reason. It was a really nice revenge in my opinion. (i blew the feth out of those khorne death star next turn he lost them)


For anyone in a similar situation its the assault phase, i dont care if you push everything in at the same time, as long as it doesnt bounce off other assaults, In friendly settings i will always allow a fixer, and even suggest helpful things.

When it effects the game in a drastic way, and it is WAY past the time it was supposed to be done, I usually will try and be polite about saying no to doing it.

If you forgot to roll combat drugs, and I remembered you had them, I would remind you. If you assaulted and realized you had forgotten them, I would let you roll them. Nothing at that point would of changed in your favor.

Say you forgot to do an assault on the back edge of the board and it is now my movement phase. I probably wouldn't allow a redo in a tournament setting.

So I guess the big difference is whether the action is one that is passive or active. Passive being a game long effect that hasn't come into play yet, and active being a direct effect in the moment, i.e. shooting or running.