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Yeah i know they are dedicated to hand to hand combat but i cant imagine them doing expert parries, well aimed strikes etc. They are described as fighting with manic frenzy so wouldnt they run forward with no sort of guard raised and throwing heavy clumsy blows that could be easily dodged? I would of thought they would be base str5 and WS3?

Nope, they're skilled fighters.

really? actually fight with some sort of skill? i would of thought that if they were raging it would be no sort of expert moves etc.

Well, they are trained Space Marines with 10,000 years of constant active duty. Fluffwise, it would make more sense for ALL Chaos Marines to be WS and BS 5, with World Eaters getting bumped up to a 6. Thank of them like Death Company with 20 times as much experience.

redrooster148 wrote:
i would of thought that if they were raging it would be no sort of expert moves etc.

The rage does not really hinder them from executing superior martial form compared to most opponents.

oh right okay.

I mean, if you compared the very best swordsman of the Emperor's Children against the very best chainaxeman of the World Eaters, the former probably has better technique than the latter. But Khorne Bezerkers know their way around melee weapons much, much better than your average Ork or even Space Marine.

Berserkers are WS5 because they have no time for flynning when they're shedding blood for the blood god.

redrooster148 wrote:
Yeah i know they are dedicated to hand to hand combat but i cant imagine them doing expert parries, well aimed strikes etc. They are described as fighting with manic frenzy so wouldnt they run forward with no sort of guard raised and throwing heavy clumsy blows that could be easily dodged? I would of thought they would be base str5 and WS3?

Don't look at it as expert parries and well aimed strikes, look at it as something more akin to them keeping enemies off balance with so much raw aggression they can't get decent hits in, and they aren't aiming strikes with perfection but rather simply slamming a chainaxe into a foe with a power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

 Vaktathi wrote:

redrooster148 wrote:
Yeah i know they are dedicated to hand to hand combat but i cant imagine them doing expert parries, well aimed strikes etc. They are described as fighting with manic frenzy so wouldnt they run forward with no sort of guard raised and throwing heavy clumsy blows that could be easily dodged? I would of thought they would be base str5 and WS3?

Don't look at it as expert parries and well aimed strikes, look at it as something more akin to them keeping enemies off balance with so much raw aggression they can't get decent hits in, and they aren't aiming strikes with perfection but rather simply slamming a chainaxe into a foe with a power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

This.

 Vaktathi wrote:
and they aren't aiming strikes with perfection but rather simply slamming a chainaxe into a foe with a power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

Actually they are aiming strikes with perfection WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY slamming their weapon into a foe with power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

There are 3 stats dealing with combat prowess: WS, S and A. To make X better in combat than Y you have to increment one of those stats. +1S doesn't fit - they aren't Ogryn. +1A was too powerful. So they got +1WS.

Why aren't Orks aren't S4 and WS3?

 Vaktathi wrote:

redrooster148 wrote:
Yeah i know they are dedicated to hand to hand combat but i cant imagine them doing expert parries, well aimed strikes etc. They are described as fighting with manic frenzy so wouldnt they run forward with no sort of guard raised and throwing heavy clumsy blows that could be easily dodged? I would of thought they would be base str5 and WS3?

Don't look at it as expert parries and well aimed strikes, look at it as something more akin to them keeping enemies off balance with so much raw aggression they can't get decent hits in, and they aren't aiming strikes with perfection but rather simply slamming a chainaxe into a foe with a power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

In second edition Khorne Bezerkers were the only ones who could parry while frenzied. But at that time they were WS4 and Space Wolves were WS5.

That being said since 3rd edition the rules team have been trying to properly balance Khorne Bezerkers. First with rules then stats boost and rules. So the WS5 is nothng more then an attempt at game balance and a reason to take Khorne Bezerkers over normal Chaos Marines with the mark of Khorne.

Do not mix stats and fluff. It will rarely make sense.

Yeah, going by the fluff, a flak armor is armor - a carapace is 5+ AT BEST, PA is 2+ and TDA is 1+, eh.

Khorne is not just the blood god. He is also the god of martial prowess and warriors honor. Many people forget that aspect of khorne.

That's true. For all the criticisms of GW (and some of them are legitimate), I find it's often the "fans" who bring most of the HURR DURR to 40k.

 Harriticus wrote:
Do not mix stats and fluff. It will rarely make sense.

You are making the mistake of forgetting the fact they are always linked.

Example:

2nd ed Chaos Codex page 92 wrote:Such is the skill of these warriors in close combat that they are allowed to parry even when frenzied.

In this case they are one and the same fluff=rules. There is no way you can look at the rule effect without also knowing the fluff reason for it.

With the removal of "Parry" from the core rules. The design team needed a way for Khorne Bezerkers to demonstrate "Such is the skill of these warriors in close combat" without parry. And desided that the best way to do that was with a WS increase after trying different combinations of special rules first.

You also have to consider that for the fluff to represent that Khorne Bezerkers are better at close combat then then normal Chaos Marines. You need more then just fluff saying so. fearless, furious charge and +1ws for +2 pts extra for less options and starting wargear; Is entirely reasonable and represents the fluff in the rules well.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Khorne is not just the blood god. He is also the god of martial prowess and warriors honor. Many people forget that aspect of khorne.

Thx for bringing this up Grey Templar.

I remember early stuff where WorldEaters would make opponent's pick their weapons back up and fight when they surrendered. Yeah, they may have killed every opponent, but they gave them a chance/made them fight back. They wanted to test their skills to show the Blood God their worth.

Somewhere this got all lost, and people think berzerkers skip along, arm in arm, singing tra la la la la and cutting heads off.

They're WS5 because GW needed to provide people a reason to take them.

Its more that they need a reason for them to be a choice worth taking. Rather then just a more expensive unit that really brings nothing extra to the table.

Because they're very skilled fighters.

That's it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Because they're very skilled fighters.

That's it.

Yup. They're much more skilled in melee combat than say, the average ork, or Space Marine, so they'll be at a higher WS.

Also keep in mind that weapon skill doesn't necessarily mean that the character is particularly elegant or refined in combat. For many characters, that goes with the territory, but that's more coincidence.

WS is simply a measure of how efficient the character is at throwing their strength around. Mainly, at throwing it into the skull of whoever is standing in their way.

Sure, they're angry.

But they're channeling that anger into 10,000 years worth of chain-axe fighting experience.

Someone who has built up that much muscle memory and accumulated technique doesn't revert to being a novice just because they're a little hot under the collar.

 tomjoad wrote:
Well, they are trained Space Marines with 10,000 years of constant active duty. Fluffwise, it would make more sense for ALL Chaos Marines to be WS and BS 5, with World Eaters getting bumped up to a 6. Thank of them like Death Company with 20 times as much experience.

Well, if years of combat experience is the pivotal ingredient, all Eldar should probably be up to WS and BS 7 than. Necrons should probably be WS and BS 11 throughout.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Well, they are trained Space Marines with 10,000 years of constant active duty. Fluffwise, it would make more sense for ALL Chaos Marines to be WS and BS 5, with World Eaters getting bumped up to a 6. Thank of them like Death Company with 20 times as much experience.

Well, if years of combat experience is the pivotal ingredient, all Eldar should probably be up to WS and BS 7 than. Necrons should probably be WS and BS 11 throughout.

There *are* Eldar with WS/BS like that, but most don't spend that much time fighting or even as a warrior. Necrons spent 99.999% of that time asleep doing nothing and largely have no ability to learn or gain experience

Why wouldn't Necrons have no ability to learn? And they fought a war at least as long as Horus-Heresy to 40K before they even went to sleep.

Still stupid. Some of the most dangerous World Eater Lords are the most recent converts. You'll find this outside the World Eaters too.

Ragnar Blackmane is noted to be a fighting prodigy going pretty much straight from Blood Claw to Wolf Lord (bypassing many Long Fangs with centuries of combat experience in the process).

Hell, you don't even have to go 40K.

Put two boxers in the ring.. one young, hungry and ambitious and the other with 50 years of "experience" in the ring. See who wins.

The notion that you "get more powerful with experience" as if combat was some stupid computer RPG where you'll just eventually "level up" if you just splatter enough opponents is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. It just doesn't work that way.


[edit]

And last but not least, they didn't fight 10.000 years straight. Novels like Soul Hunter pretty much show that even Marines that were around at the Heresy and fled to the Eye, have at most a decade or two of active combat per "Millenium" of time passed. The rest is most likely "lost" in Warp-time-distortions. Even if they fought in the Heresy, they might well have quite a bit less combat experience than a regular loyalist Marine with 2 or 3 hundred years of active duty behind him.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Why wouldn't Necrons have no ability to learn? And they fought a war at least as long as Horus-Heresy to 40K before they even went to sleep.

Still stupid. Some of the most dangerous World Eater Lords are the most recent converts. You'll find this outside the World Eaters too.

Ragnar Blackmane is noted to be a fighting prodigy going pretty much straight from Blood Claw to Wolf Lord (bypassing many Long Fangs with centuries of combat experience in the process).

Hell, you don't even have to go 40K.

Put two boxers in the ring.. one young, hungry and ambitious and the other with 50 years of "experience" in the ring. See who wins.

The notion that you "get more powerful with experience" as if combat was some stupid computer RPG where you'll just eventually "level up" if you just splatter enough opponents is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. It just doesn't work that way.


[edit]

And last but not least, they didn't fight 10.000 years straight. Novels like Soul Hunter pretty much show that even Marines that were around at the Heresy and fled to the Eye, have at most a decade or two of active combat per "Millenium" of time passed. The rest is most likely "lost" in Warp-time-distortions. Even if they fought in the Heresy, they might well have quite a bit less combat experience than a regular loyalist Marine with 2 or 3 hundred years of active duty behind him.

Experience is one facet of combat skill, the same as motivation, physical strength, etc.

While the Traitor Legions ahven't been fighting for 10,000 years straight, Void Hunter states that 10th Company has been fighting for well over 200 years by their perception. Adding to this their combat experience from the Great Crusade (even for the legion most late to the fighting, the Alpha Legion, still a good few decades of bloody combat), plus the events of the Horus Heresy, leaves the Traitor Legionnaires with a significant body of combat experience. Add to that the fact that they have less diluted geneseed (though in many cases corrupted) than their Imperial counterparts, and they have some decent advantages behind them.

codemonkey wrote:


Experience is one facet of combat skill, the same as motivation, physical strength, etc.

While the Traitor Legions ahven't been fighting for 10,000 years straight, Void Hunter states that 10th Company has been fighting for well over 200 years by their perception. Adding to this their combat experience from the Great Crusade (even for the legion most late to the fighting, the Alpha Legion, still a good few decades of bloody combat), plus the events of the Horus Heresy, leaves the Traitor Legionnaires with a significant body of combat experience. Add to that the fact that they have less diluted geneseed (though in many cases corrupted) than their Imperial counterparts, and they have some decent advantages behind them.

Well. There're plenty of Marines with 200 or 300 years of combat experience around. And they do train far more effectively, rigorously and efficiently in a coherent and organized manner too. It's the same reason why professionally trained Spec-Ops are likely superiour fighters all else being equal than most tribal warriors with a random gun, even if the latter have been fighting decades on end since their earliest childhood in some Hellhole like Afghanistan or Somalia.

Either way.. if experience is one facet, than age, as well as the general wear and tear of combat both physcially and (for non-World Eaters) psychically is a negative factor.

Likewise, Combat experience is - at best - probably accumulated in a log-function. The first few battles you're in are going to provide you with an indefinitely steeper learning-curve than your fight No. 174.758 ever will.

Add to that the heroic/cincematic nature of the setting (e.g. Zhufor or Huron commanding Heresy-era legionaries, Ragnar commanding grizzled long-fangs, Calgar being far more skilled than the far more experienced Cassius, etc..), it seems quite safe to say that the importance of "experience", even if it may be a minor factor, is certainly far to negligible to have any bearing on stats in the actual game even if the stats were meant to simulate the fluff first and foremost (which they are not).