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 Grey Templar wrote:

That said, I think some entries for loyalist marines need to change.

Terminators, command squads, and Veterans should be WS5. They are the elite warriors of the chapter.

Honor Guard, Chapter Masters, and Captains should be WS6.

The problem with approaching it like that is that leads to an arms-race of ever-increasing WS.

Special characters need to be WS7 then? Being the Special Elite of the Elite of the Elite Space Marines.
Phoenix Lords WS8? Since they have actual 10,000 years of experience.

Eventually we run out of numbers

Also, high weapon skill counts for too little until you get to 9-10 (unless it's versus guardsmen or other WS3 units).

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, it's not hard to believe.

But you misunderstand me-- I just don't consider Marines to be that much better than humans in terms of raw skill to begin with.

Can you clarify on that point?

I find that, when responding to your post, I have trouble really assessing what it is you are trying to say.

What's so ambiguous about it?

A marine's enhancements just make the marines tougher and stronger-- enhancements that are incredibly useful for an elite soldier, I would not deny that, but they'll still be killed by a bolter shell or a good chainsword strike, like just about everyone else. None of the enhancements directly increase their skill or their ability to learn skills over any human's skill or ability to learn. So Marines, with their small numbers, high-end equipment, and superior biology, are best off using surprise attack, because in a straight up fight their advantages aren't quite as supreme as many fanboys would lead them to believe. Humans can (and do) train to equal Marines in terms of raw skill.

TL;DR, Marines are powerful, but they aren't gods. There's more to 40k than marinewank.

A marine does have quicker reflexs and their minds are conditioned to remain calm in battle(so they don't lose their capability for rational thought)

Of course the rational bit might not apply to Bezerkers.

To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, you can make two mistakes regarding Space Marines: overestimating how individually powerful they are and underestimating how individually powerful they are. Compared to normal humans, Marines are much, much tougher, stronger, faster, etc. The idea that a normal human could square off against a Marine is laughable, barring some bizarre circumstances.

IMO, bezerkers are trained to be a dueling champion, in the image of their Primarch Angron, who was the best gladiator on his adoptive world. His bezerkers were probably trained to fight in an Arena well, which is probably why on TT, they have to challenge.

If there is any fluff that would dispell my agrguments, i won't try to argue. I'm just relating the Primarchs combat specialty to how they are so good in CC.

They stated this in the old 5th edition rule book under weapon skill. They explain that it is an abstract representation of combat "prowess." For marines, their WS4 is from decades of training, as well as physical enhancements to their mental reaction times. For orks, WS4 represents their reckless abandon with which they fight. They spin, slice, smash, and will generally be fairly unpredictable in where their strikes will go, or how hard they hit.

Its an abstract rules set, so you actually have to use something called your "imagination" to figure out or explain why stats are what. The moment you start speaking in terms of arbitrary numbers, like "oh GW just bumped it up by one cause they wanted to, and they needed a reason to be taken" then you might as well stop playing the game. In the end, we're playing with toy soldiers, we imagine the fight we see in our heads. As soon as they just become plastic lumps on the table with numbers, we've lost the joy of the game.

 Melissia wrote:
What's so ambiguous about it?

A marine's enhancements just make the marines tougher and stronger-- enhancements that are incredibly useful for an elite soldier, I would not deny that, but they'll still be killed by a bolter shell or a good chainsword strike, like just about everyone else. None of the enhancements directly increase their skill or their ability to learn skills over any human's skill or ability to learn. So Marines, with their small numbers, high-end equipment, and superior biology, are best off using surprise attack, because in a straight up fight their advantages aren't quite as supreme as many fanboys would lead them to believe. Humans can (and do) train to equal Marines in terms of raw skill.

TL;DR, Marines are powerful, but they aren't gods. There's more to 40k than marinewank.

But the vast majority of guardsmen aren't as skilled as Marines are, and I frankly don't see how that could be argued.

Sure, some guardsmen or other humans could equal (Storm Troopers) or surpass a Marine (Yarrick comes to mind), but I'm talking about averages.

And on average, a Space Marine is more skilled than a human combatant, and on average, a Berzerker is more martially capable still.

 Manchu wrote:
The idea that a normal human could square off against a Marine is laughable

Sure, but only if you ignore the lore entirely.

I would go to estimate that there are more humans who can square off against space marines than there are space marines in the galaxy. But that's just simple statistics-- even if it's just one in a billion humans being skilled enough to take on a space marine, that still leaves more of them than there are space marines.

Furthermore, having more skill does not indicate you will win a fight 100% of the time anyway. A skilled space marine can still be killed by a lucky shot, or a desperate stab, from a common conscript. The comment I was responding to indicated that guardsmen would never even have that much, and therefor was silly and wrong.

If biological superiority and superior skill indicated a 100% victory chance like certain marine fanboys in this thread would claim, then Marines would have been wiped out a long time ago by Tyranids, Orks, and Eldar. But this is 40k. Weaker things overcome stronger things all the time-- the epic struggle makes for a great story, so they love using it.

Go fight a lion with your bare hands and then get back to me.

Using a few Black Library examples to prove that marines aren't much stronger than normal humans is silly, because the Black Library includes gems such as Brothers of the Snake.

Space Marine power level fluctuates, but it's clear that The Traitor's Hand is on the low end of estimations, while fluff like Brothers of the Snake place it on the high end.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Khorne Bezerkers also have hundreds of years of combat experience

And yet, unaugmented humans are able to beat them in close combat. Sometimes with contemptuous ease.

Cain narrated that he couldn't beat the Berzerker in close-combat; he was going to get tired out. Jurgen killed the World Eater by using his melta.

Also, Cain has more (plot) armor than a Land Raider.

 Melissia wrote:
Actualy I'm fairly certain that, in a Cain book, Cain would win 10/10 fights against Kharn.

Ciaphas Cain is a protagonist, and thus has more plot armor than an antagonist.

Also no, a guardsman would not lose 100% of all fights agaisnt a berserker. That's just nonsensical wankery.

...
Are you honestly saying that a guardsman can beat a Khorne Berserker? 1 on 1? That's nonsensical spank. There's absolutely no way that your average guardsman is going to beat a Khorne Berserker: the latter has more experience, armor that the guardsman can't pierce with his bayonet, and a weapon that will shred the guardsman if it makes contact. The only way that a guardsman can win this fight is if he's armed with a weapon like a plasma gun (not what I meant in my previous post, I was discussing an average guardsman), and starts far away from the Berserker.

 Manchu wrote:
Go fight a lion with your bare hands and then get back to me.

I'd rather just shoot him.

You know the old saying, "God made men, Colt made them equal." And that's pretty much how one can describe a boltgun in 40k lore. Even a lasgun is capable of killing a marine in one shot-- the laser flash-boiling the blood at the wound (as it would; any laser that is able to cauterize a wound is incredibly weak, and very much inferior to modern weapons) could easily take out both hearts, or destroy the brain, and do it in one shot.

Black Knight wrote:
Are you honestly saying that a guardsman can beat a Khorne Berserker?

Yes.

I am not saying it would happen often. But it would happen, and it wouldn't necessarily take a miracle. Space Marines are tough, but a lasbolt to the face is still going to kill them more likely than not-- nevermind a bolter or frag grenade. A marine, berserker or not, would kill the guardsman more often than not. But not every single time.

You fighting a lion barehanded is like a normal, armed human fighting an unarmed Astartes. I'm not saying you could never beat a lion unarmed -- I'm saying the notion of you going out to pick a bareknuckle fist fight with a lion is laughably stupid.

A lasgun isn't likely to penetrate the helmet of a Berzerker Melissia.

 Manchu wrote:
You fighting a lion barehanded is like a normal, armed human fighting an unarmed Astartes.

No.

Stop making things up.

A Space Marine would punch a lion's head into its torso.

I am just saying.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A lasgun isn't likely to penetrate the helmet of a Berzerker Melissia.

Lasguns fire in full auto, and it only needs to get through once.

I never said it would happen frequently. Only that it would happen. People who say that space marines never die are just being stuck up and arrogant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A Space Marine would punch a lion's head into its torso.

I am just saying.

And an intelligent person would just shoot it, but we're talking about khorne berserkers, so...

 Melissia wrote:
Even a lasgun is capable of killing a marine in one shot

You seem to think it will be easy to hit the Astartes. It's like assuming the lion will sit still for you to punch it to death. Yeah, a normal human has a tiny chance of killing an Astartes. Let's not turn the exception into the rule.

 Manchu wrote:
You seem to think it will be easy to hit the Astartes.

Please stop making things up.

Nothing I have said has suggested that. Only you have suggested it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You fighting a lion barehanded is like a normal, armed human fighting an unarmed Astartes.

No.

Yes.

If you're not going to bother with meaningful argument than neither will I.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You seem to think it will be easy to hit the Astartes.

Please stop making things up.

Nothing I have said has suggested that. Only you have suggested it.

You're talking about exceptional circumstances as if they were the norm. I can't expect you to understand my points but I think it's reasonable to expect you'll understand your own.

 Melissia wrote:
Lasguns fire in full auto, and it only needs to get through once.

I never said it would happen frequently. Only that it would happen. People who say that space marines never die are just being stuck up and arrogant.

Why do you assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a Marine fanboy?

It may only need to get through once, but see, a Space Marine wouldn't just stand there and let them have lasers punched into their brain.

They are often described as being too fast for the human eye to follow when attacking, can avert las fire with a melee weapon, and close that distance quickly. Or shoot the Guardsman, and if both see eachother at the same time, the Marine will almost assuredly shoot first, having superhuman reaction-time (By IRL standards anyway, it must be said that in 40k, exceptional humans seem to be capable of exceptional physical feats at times. Noticeable examples including many Inquisitors deflecting projectiles with a blade, or Harker strangling a Ravener with his bicep).

And an intelligent person would just shoot it, but we're talking about khorne berserkers, so...

Why would a Marine waste a bullet on a creature that poses zero threat to them and can be effortlessly dispatched in melee combat?

 Manchu wrote:
If you're not going to bother with meaningful argument than neither will I.

Your "argument", such as it is, is nothing more than blatant hyperbole and nonsensical exaggeration for the sake of aggrandizing Marines to the point of claiming that they are invincible and can never be beaten.

I had nothing meaningful to respond to in the first place. You will never get me to agree with the idea of marines as unbetable gods of battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They are often described as being too fast for the human eye to follow when attacking

According to propaganda yes. I don't believe for an instant that it is actually true.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
can avert las fire with a melee weapon

No. They are not faster than the speed of light. Don't be inane.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why would a Marine waste a bullet on a creature that poses zero threat to them and can be effortlessly dispatched in melee combat?

By taht definition, why should marines carry boltguns to begin with? After all, you have already been arguing that they are invulnerable, unkillable, and unbeatable in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
You're talking about exceptional circumstances as if they were the norm.

No, I'm not. Stop making things up.

In fact, I've specifically stated, time and again, that was I was talking about was not a frequent occurrence. I even went back and checked to make sure.

 Melissia wrote:
nothing more than blatant hyperbole and nonsensical exaggeration for the sake of aggrandizing Marines

You know we're talking about 40k right? This is the fluff not my own opinion. In that universe, Astartes are in fact all but invincible vis-à-vis normal humans. That's kind of why they were created in the first place. Frankly, I could care less about MelissiaHammer 40k, where Guardsman routinely one shot Space Marines. I'm here to talk about the 40k GW publishes.

 Manchu wrote:
This is the fluff not my own opinion.

Just the opposite, Manchu.

No, Space Marines are NOT "nigh-invincible" in the lore. They take heavy losses quite frequently in fact, and indeed humans-- "mere" humans, if you must-- have wiped out entire chapters.

They are powerful and skilled soldiers, who can turn the tide of battle with their presence alone. They are not, however, gods upon the battlefield.

 Melissia wrote:
Stop making things up

You need to take your own advice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
"mere" humans, if you must-- have wiped out entire chapters.

But not on a one-for-one basis.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Stop making things up

You need to take your own advice.

And yet, you're still arguing against me when I state, quite simply, that Space Marines can in fact be killed by humans, however difficult or rare it might be.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
"mere" humans, if you must-- have wiped out entire chapters.

But not on a one-for-one basis.

Actually, I could argue that this is exactly what the Sisters of Battle did-- the Sororitas rarely deploy in numbers greater than a thousand in Games Workshop's current lore, after all. Assuming they ever give numbers in the first place, one thousand Sisters deploying at once is one of the largest Sororitas deployments in current GW lore. Outside of Armageddon or the defense of their homeworld, or possibly Cadia (all of which involved Sisters from multiple Orders; on San Leor, they utterly annihilated the Marines that attacked them, though I have no source on the number of Sisters and Marines that participated), I can't think of any others that might exceed that number.

Which is a stupid choice on GW's part, but be that as it may, your assertion that Sisters have never defeated Marines in a one to one battle is as baseless as the fake moon landing theory. There is at least one instance in BL lore of a Battle Sister defeating a Marine one on one (I seem to recall two); furthermore, Sisters were introduced in to 40k by wiping out a chapter of Space Marines anyway, with no indication that it was anything other than one to one (rogue trader was fun like that), and GW has gone on record stating that Space Marines regard Sisters as equals in combat-- not inferiors.

To re-iterate:

 Melissia wrote:
[Space Marines] are powerful and skilled soldiers, who can turn the tide of battle with their presence alone. They are not, however, gods upon the battlefield.

This apparently is a hugely controversial statement or something.

 Melissia wrote:
According to propaganda yes. I don't believe for an instant that it is actually true.

Deny the written fluff all you want, due to 40k's loose canon policy, that is your right, but that doesn't change what is written.

Oh, but want to know a neat fact? The speed required for an Inquisitor to deflect a bullet is far above the average human's perception.

No. They are not faster than the speed of light. Don't be inane.

By all means, if you have evidence that a lasgun fires a "laser" at the speed of light, I'd love to see it. I truly would.

As far as I'm concerned, lasguns are no more lasers than the blasters in Star Wars are.

Some Inquisitors, going by Eisenhorn as well as the old Inquisitor game (Official GW fluff I might add) the series was based on, are capable of such a feat. IIRC in Inquisitor Marines are also capable of it.

By taht definition, why should marines carry boltguns to begin with? After all, you have already been arguing that they are invulnerable, unkillable, and unbeatable in close combat.

Interesting.

You chastise others for making assumptions and claims about your behavior/beliefs, yet are so quick to do so to others.

Please, do point out where I, the one who fully admitted that Marines can be bested by exceptional humans in close combat, argued they were invulnerable, unkillable, and unbeatable in melee.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh, but want to know a neat fact? The speed required for an Inquisitor to deflect a bullet is far above the average human's perception.

Yes, it is. Since many Inquisitors are psychic, however, I let this go. The average Marine, however is not.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By all means, if you have evidence that a lasgun fires a "laser" at the speed of light, I'd love to see it. I truly would.

What evidence do you have that lasguns fire star wars style "slow light"?

I don't think I've seen a single depiction, even in black library, that supports this.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Please, do point out where I, the one who fully admitted that Marines can be bested by exceptional humans in close combat, argued they were invulnerable, unkillable, and unbeatable in melee.

For one, you seemed to be trying to contradict me when I said that khornate berserkers would not win 100% of the time against guardsmen. I fully admit that I could have misread your intent, but that is certainly what the post was telling me.


edit: apologies for the crap editing. I screwed up my quote tags so many times...

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A lasgun isn't likely to penetrate the helmet of a Berzerker Melissia.

Lasguns fire in full auto, and it only needs to get through once.

I never said it would happen frequently. Only that it would happen. People who say that space marines never die are just being stuck up and arrogant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A Space Marine would punch a lion's head into its torso.

I am just saying.

And an intelligent person would just shoot it, but we're talking about khorne berserkers, so...

That's an extremely unlikely scenario. That requires a guardsman to get repeated headshots on a target charging at him with superhuman speed. Unless he is a marvelous shot, he has almost no chance of doing this. He then has to get lucky enough that one of these shots will penetrate the Berserker's power armor. This is a 1 in a 1000 chance. Of course, the Khorne Berserker won't win every fight against the guardsman, as something unbelievably unlikely might happen. But that's like saying that Kaldor Draigo won't win every fight against a grot, because I can think of some unlikely way in which the grot might win.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, it is. Since many Inquisitors are psychic, however, I let this go. The average Marine, however is not.

Many Inquisitor's are psychic, but most are not.

And even though Eisenhorn was a psyker, he still could be tested by skilled human opponents, like this mercenary guy he fought on top of a train.

What evidence do you have that lasguns fire star wars style "slow light"?

I don't think I've seen a single depiction, even in black library, that supports this

I frankly never assume a laser blaster works like an actual laser unless we are given sufficient cause to believe so.

Lasguns clearly don't operate entirely in line with IRL physics, considering you can, you know, see it, lol.

But part of the reason is that they have been blocked after they've been fired.

For one, you seemed to be trying to contradict me when I said that khornate berserkers would not win 100% of the time against guardsmen. I fully admit that I could have misread your intent, but that is certainly what the post was telling me.


edit: apologies for the crap editing. I screwed up my quotes so many times...

There are too many variables to say a Berzerker would win 100% of the time against a guardsman, even in melee (Luck plays a factor, for one, which is the ultimate variable), but against the average guardsman, I think the fight is tilted very heavily in the Berzerker's favor. Against a guy like Yarrick or Straken though? The average Berzerker would lose more times than not (Please don't bring Kharn into this, just as a request).

And yeah, at range, a guardsman would have a better chance, especially depending on the kind of weapon the guardsman is packing, a hellgun (feth hot shot lasguns), even wielded by a normal guardsman (I am speaking theoretically here, I can't imagine Guardsmen using a hellgun), is likely to at least incapacitate the Berzerker before he can close a signifigant enough distance.