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Wait, a psyker fighting a mercenary on top of a train?

Hm. Sounds like a bad anime.

Abnett inserts a lot of action-movie cliches into his writing admittedly, yeah.

 Melissia wrote:
And yet, you're still arguing against me when I state, quite simply, that Space Marines can in fact be killed by humans, however difficult or rare it might be.

Oh really?

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, a normal human has a tiny chance of killing an Astartes. Let's not turn the exception into the rule.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Assuming they ever give numbers in the first place, one thousand Sisters deploying at once is one of the largest Sororitas deployments in current GW lore.

"Stop making things up."

Prove me wrong. The largest stated deployment in C:WH was 1000 Sisters. Aside from that, the only ones that I can think of that might exceed that I mentioned above. Your assertion that they deploy in huge numbers contradicts GW's lore, which puts entire Major Orders as often numbering in the thousands-- and they're almost never deployed all at once, because half of each major order is stationed on one of their two homeworlds of Terra and Ophelia. Perhaps you have numbers you would like to use to prove that Sisters deploy in huge, never before seen numbers?

As for the rest, in order: you did make that assertion (I went back and checked even), my point was perfectly valid and you have yet to disprove it, and the Games Workshop website. To be specific: "As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion." Not all Astartes chapters have the same worldview about anything, but on the whole, Sororitas and Astartes respect eachothers' combat prowess, and for good reason.

If you don't have anything of value to add, I think that's about all I'm going to say to you.

 Melissia wrote:
If you don't have anything of value to add

I'm still waiting for this comprehensive list of orders of battle for all actions in which the Sisters have been deployed described in GW-published sources ... and I think I'll be waiting for a long time since it doesn't exist.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
If you don't have anything of value to add

I'm still waiting for this comprehensive list of orders of battle for all actions in which the Sisters have been deployed described in GW-published sources ... and I think I'll be waiting for a long time since it doesn't exist.

Don't hold your breath. You'll suffocate.

1000 Sisters were deployed to conquer 100 worlds in C:WH. There is no evidence that this is a routine, minor force of Sisters, or any evidence that there are numerous other battles where this number is exceeded. Certainly no evidence that you are capable of providing. Indeed, according to C:WH, page 11, 1000 Sisters is the largest subdivision of Sisters aside from the major orders themselves. A preceptory holds UP TO 1000 Sisters, led by a Canoness Preceptor; the Canoness Commander leads commandery of up to 200 Sisters in comparison, while a palatine or canoness (with no title)s command a mission of a few dozen Sisters. Missions and commanderys are more common, indeed, a Commandery is stated to be a company-level subdivision for Sisters.

A preceptory is stated to be the largest force that an Order is ever likely to field. It's up to 1000 Sisters. Perhaps you have some source that contradicts this? I'm reading from the book here and I see nothing that supports your assertion.

Would you mind posting the actual quote where C:WH unequivocally states the largest deployment of Sisters is 1000?

 Manchu wrote:
Would you mind posting the actual quote where C:WH unequivocally states the largest deployment of Sisters is 1000?

That's not what I said, nor was it what I was arguing, and you know it.

Regardless, the quote:

C:WH pg11 wrote:The term [Preceptory] is also used to define the largest organizational unit an Order is ever likely to field, numbering up to 1000 Battle Sisters cloistered together at one location.

 Melissia wrote:
That's not what I said, nor was it what I was arguing, and you know it.

By all means, let me know what you think your point is. You don't have any actual numbers to show that Sisters or any other normal humans fight and triumph over SM on a one-to-one basis. What you're up against is a huge amount of canon that SM are easily superior combatants relative to normal humans.

Nor do you, ergo, your assertions are baseless. At least I have SOMETHING to correlate with what I said. You have nothing.

What? As I just said, you are up against the balance of 40k publications indicating that SM are superior combatants to normal humans in every way (save only numbers). There is no dearth of evidence for that point.

Oh, what a surprise, someone stuck in an endless argument with Melissia. Space Marines suck, and Sisters are better at everything. There, the end, everyone kiss and make up.

The weirdest part is Sisters are my favorite faction!

Right, but being able to stay objective despite personal preferences is obviously impossible for some, so why bother? Seriously... this happens in pretty much every thread involving Space Marines or Sisters.

Omegus, if you want to talk about my posts, try actually reading them first.

I did not say Space Marines suck in this thread. Not once.

 Melissia wrote:
Omegus, if you want to talk about my posts, try actually reading them first.

I did not say Space Marines suck in this thread. Not once.

It was hyperbole to make a point. You consistently undermine their strengths, while touting the Sisters as unparalleled.

Oh crap, now I'm being drawn into the whirlpool too! I'm sorry, I'm sorry! You're absolutely right in whatever point it is you're making.

Moving on...

 Omegus wrote:
It was hyperbole to make a point. You consistently undermine their strengths

No, I state their strengths. In fact, I've specifically stated their strengths and how they're powerful warriors/soldiers numerous times IN THIS VERY THREAD. But people refuse to actually read, and so they get offended over nothing.

Indeed, this entire conversation with me basically started over a few people (who are no longer even participating in the discussion) stating that Marines unequivocally will win 100% of all fights against a Guardsman, not even accounting for purely lucky shots.

But apparently me saying that "no, Marines would not win 100% of the time" is bashing Space Marines.

I wish I was surprised at people being offended by such an assertion. But I'm not. This is a common reaction.

 Omegus wrote:
while touting the Sisters as unparalleled.

I have not once, in 22,000+ posts, stated that Sisters of Battle are unbeatable or unparalleled.

Black Knight wrote:

That's an extremely unlikely scenario. That requires a guardsman to get repeated headshots on a target charging at him with superhuman speed. Unless he is a marvelous shot, he has almost no chance of doing this. He then has to get lucky enough that one of these shots will penetrate the Berserker's power armor. This is a 1 in a 1000 chance. Of course, the Khorne Berserker won't win every fight against the guardsman, as something unbelievably unlikely might happen. But that's like saying that Kaldor Draigo won't win every fight against a grot, because I can think of some unlikely way in which the grot might win.

Well guardsmen outnumber the Zerkers some million, maybe more to one, so they'll be fine, really.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Would you mind posting the actual quote where C:WH unequivocally states the largest deployment of Sisters is 1000?

That's not what I said, nor was it what I was arguing, and you know it.

Regardless, the quote:

C:WH pg11 wrote:The term [Preceptory] is also used to define the largest organizational unit an Order is ever likely to field, numbering up to 1000 Battle Sisters cloistered together at one location.

I know its not real numbers but the Sisters deploy three Orders when they attack the Fang.

But on the point of humans beating Astartes. In Outcast Dead the human swordsmen defeats the World Eater Sgt who has the Butcher's Nails. The same one that killed a Custode with his bare hands. He however was not armored and still recovering from the beating he took from a Thunder Warrior. But was inpressed enough by the Swordsmen that he pulled the sword out of his body and handed it back to him.

That being said it is very much the exception for such events to happen. For almost all comparible catagories, an Astartes might as well be an underfeatible god of war when fighting normal humans 1v1.

Aside from the fact that this is space wolf lore, and thus hard to take seriously, it couldn't have been three entire Orders unless it's minor orders (major Orders must keep half their number on ophelia and terra), which themselves haven't been described as having thousands of sisters in them-- indeed, minor Orders are often described as a few dozen Sisters guarding a specific shrine or world.

GW is stupid regarding the number of Sisters in the lore, which makes these kinds of discussions rather fruitless, but the weight of the lore indicates Sisters rarely deploy in numbers greater than the Astartes deploy-- none of the numbers really indicate that the Sisters are that large of an organization, even though that makes no logical sense given their duties to the Imperium and is really just kind of stupid.

Then again, GW can't even agree with itself on how many major orders there are and how many Sisters are in them, so meh.

 Omegus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Omegus, if you want to talk about my posts, try actually reading them first.

I did not say Space Marines suck in this thread. Not once.

It was hyperbole to make a point. You consistently undermine their strengths, while touting the Sisters as unparalleled.

Oh crap, now I'm being drawn into the whirlpool too! I'm sorry, I'm sorry! You're absolutely right in whatever point it is you're making.

Moving on...

I wish I could exalt this post more than once.

edit: Delete. This is getting way too off topic.

 Melissia wrote:
Aside from the fact that this is space wolf lore, and thus hard to take seriously, it couldn't have been three entire Orders unless it's minor orders (major Orders must keep half their number on ophelia and terra), which themselves haven't been described as having thousands of sisters in them-- indeed, minor Orders are often described as a few dozen Sisters guarding a specific shrine or world.

KK then Sister's fluff. In their second ed codex there is the story of Cardinal Bucharis. Who attacks the Fang with the support of an entire Segmentum Fleet and ground forces of that Segmentum's planets. With all of those forces he was unable to win. So the Sisters deploying anything less would be an act of futility that would not be undertaken. Three full orders sounds like to many Sisters??? That's because of the task at hand. I would estimate that when the Sisters were sent to eliminate a Space Marine chapter that they would have wanted to outnumber them. Not just because the SMs are better warriors but because you never want to go into a siege on equal terms with those being sieged. The fact that the Sisters pulled out after only three weeks of fighting shows that they brought to few troops and support to actively stand a chance against the defences of the Fang.

A normal SM chapter is 1,000 marines so sending in 3,000 Sisters would be about right. 3 to 1 because you want at least that ratio when you lay siege to a defended target. That's just against a normal SM Chapter. If their deployment was only 3,000 Sisters against a larger then normal chapter like the SWs then it is understandable why they pulled out so quikly.

The important thing to note is that using this level/numbers of Sisters deployed is assuming that Sisters are considered 1v1 against SMs. Which we know to not be true. Which in turn means that if you believe the fluff about the Sisters purging SM chapters. Then you must admit that they are capable of deploying Sisters well beyond the 1,000 Sisters mark.

 Melissia wrote:
edit: Delete. This is getting way too off topic.

It is and its not. Any comparison of non-gene enhanced warriors taking on SMs (even better if they were Khorne Bezerkers). Adds to the context why the Khorne Bezerkers deserve WS5 over their WS4 counterparts. Comparing Sisters who have almost the same gear as a SM against the SWs who had WS5 in second ed gives us the best point of view of highely trained well equiped soldiers (SoBs) taking on The closest thing we have to a WS5 equivalent foe (SWs).

We can look at Battle of the Fang and the 2nd ed Sister codex to see that the SWs would not have just sat in the Fang and endured the siege. But instead would have launch counter attacks against the invaders. We can also look at the 5th ed SW codex and see that the non-gene enhanced Space Marine equivalent forcd pulled out after only 3 weeks of fighting. Which suggest that the commander knew that they had no hope of winnng the engagement.

From the best information we have. We can conclude that a Sister of Battle is not capable of defeating a SW 1v1 in melee on average. Maybe not even with an advantage of upto 3 to 1 when fighting on the SW's terms. We can also conclude that with the reduction of the SW's WS and the increase of the Khrone Bezerker's; that your average SW is not as effective in melee as your average Khorne Bezerker. Which in turn means that your average SoB would lose to the average Khorne Bezerker fairly consistantly.

That does not mean that a Khorne Bezerker should be conisdered unkillable by a Sister in melee. Only that the Khorne bezerker would have a consistant advantage which is supported by the rules. Higher WS, S, T, I and more attacks demonstrate this rather well. Just as the higher WS, S on the charge and attacks on the charge would give the Khorne Bezerker an advantage against an average Space Wolf. Which puts the Khrone Bezerker's skill on par with the most highely trained units of the Grey Knights.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Aside from the fact that this is space wolf lore, and thus hard to take seriously, it couldn't have been three entire Orders unless it's minor orders (major Orders must keep half their number on ophelia and terra), which themselves haven't been described as having thousands of sisters in them-- indeed, minor Orders are often described as a few dozen Sisters guarding a specific shrine or world.

KK then Sister's fluff. In their second ed codex there is the story of Cardinal Bucharis. Who attacks the Fang with the support of an entire Segmentum Fleet and ground forces of that Segmentum's planets. With all of those forces he was unable to win.

No Space Wolf lore can really be taken seriously, regardless of edition, but especially if it's from 2nd. The whole game was far more comic-booky back then (see Orks), and that was when Andy Chambers was a lead designer and had such a hard-on for Space Wolves, he even cut his hair like them. They are the original Mary Sue Space Marines +1. There is no way a single chapter should be able to fight off an entire Segmentum fleet, especially considering their dearth of personnel due to recruiting all their Astartes and vassals from a low-population deathworld with a very low technology level.

That being said, the average Astartes from any chapter should stomp an average Sister 10 times out of 10. They may be Nuns with Guns and Tig Ol' Biddies, but they are still only human.

Don't they have butcher's nails?