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Another thing that makes tournament results less than meaningful is your local meta probably doesn't run tournament lists. The global tournament scene has it's own, as does every local group. Something that dominates a tournament might cet destroyed in a local setting because the person played against a list perfectly designed to take it apart - but not an all rounder list, so not something you'd see at a tournament.

It's worthwhile rating these teirs as tournament teirs, because they're definitely not local teirs.

 DarkCorsair wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

Rampage wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:
Again, if BA were a competitive army now, you'd see top players using them and winning, which isn't the case.

Just a quick question as a non-BA player. I don't recall Blood Angels winning very many tournaments in 5th edition either, and yet they were still considered a strong Codex then. Tournament results have not changed for BA through the transition between 5th and 6th. Could you enlighten me as to which big GTs Blood Angels won and when during 5th?

Have you never heard of Jawaballs?

Of course, I don't live in a cave. Could you please fill me in on exactly which major GTs he won with his Blood Angels in 5th?

I don't think he's won any GT's
If I'm wrong, my mistake.

He won Mechanicon 2010 as well as placing 6th overall at NOVA Open 2011. I'm sure he probably has some other notable achievements, I just don't know them. He seems to be "famous" more for painting than gaming though.

Pretty much this.

 Red Comet wrote:

You're leaving out the fact he's more full of himself than a politician.
Pretty much this.

Fixed it for ya ^^

IMO - once 6th is settled BA will still be good.

Blood Angels are my main army to fight against.
Things my eldar hate are

Drop podding AV13 furiosos's
Furiosos's that keep hitting till the squads dead.
All Fast vehicles
Storm Ravens that fly up and drop off hammernators and dreadnoughts. The dreadnoughts can't be killed by a crash either.
Death company
Corbulo tanking wounds
Dante - descent of angels, melta pistol and a 2+ 4++. While nerfing an enemy character.
Feel no pain across the board (seems like it )
Furious charge giving +1 strength - good in marine on marine. They aren't going first anymore, but they still hit harder.
Did I mention Storm Ravens?
The Sanguinor

There are still good builds for the BA.

Things I consider significantly nerfed
In 3rd ed, I ran an eldar biel tan army. In 4th, there were no more specific craftworld builds so my army was illegal. In 5th I also ran chaos undivided. Now I need more troops because my army is illegal again, what with the foc changes for cult marines. In 2nd, the wolves had ws5 across the board. In 3rd, blood claws became ws3 and thus worse for the same cost as grey hunters.
Those are specific army nerfs.
The BA have been affected more than most by FNP, but the general rules changed for everybody.
For Example - the transport nerf didn't hit BA as bad as eldar. Eldar have no assault vehicles so banshee's are now unusable - they have to foot slog with t3 and a 4+ and as soon as they get in range, one tac squad worth of shooting will drop them.
There's a reason all the eldar players on the net seem to be running wraith/foot lists at the moment - it's because the eldar now have a grand total of 1 (arguably) viable cc squad.
I'm enjoying playing against BA more as there's no more turn 1 charge and auto win, but they are a hell of a long way from the bottom of the army tiers.
They are still a good army. What mainly got hit in 6th was the vehicle spam from all armies.

In case you didn't guess I still rate the BA.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
In 5th edition it had alot to do with Codex Creep.

SW's came out, we saw missile spam/ T-wolves with Las/plas razors. Blood Angels came out, we saw 5 man assault squads w/ cheap las/plas razor backs. GK came out we saw str 8 Psyfleman spam, w/ Coteaz and friends.

I don't think Codex Creep is real. To cite the example most commonly used, Space Wolves indeed do some things better than Space Marines-- but they also do some things worse. Their Devastators are better, but their Terminators are worse. Their Grey Hunters are better in assault, but they can't use Combat Squads to split up and park a heavy weapon on your rear objective. They have Counter-Attack, but they lose Combat Tactics. It's a series of tradeoffs-- and each book can still play to its comparative advantage.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

You're leaving out the fact he's more full of himself than a politician.
Pretty much this.

Fixed it for ya ^^

I've met him and he's a pretty nice dude...please give me an example of him being full of himself? Blatantly insulting someone for no reason where they can't defend themselves is generally frowned upon.

 Red Comet wrote:

 DarkCorsair wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

Rampage wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:
Again, if BA were a competitive army now, you'd see top players using them and winning, which isn't the case.

Just a quick question as a non-BA player. I don't recall Blood Angels winning very many tournaments in 5th edition either, and yet they were still considered a strong Codex then. Tournament results have not changed for BA through the transition between 5th and 6th. Could you enlighten me as to which big GTs Blood Angels won and when during 5th?

Have you never heard of Jawaballs?

Of course, I don't live in a cave. Could you please fill me in on exactly which major GTs he won with his Blood Angels in 5th?

I don't think he's won any GT's
If I'm wrong, my mistake.

He won Mechanicon 2010 as well as placing 6th overall at NOVA Open 2011. I'm sure he probably has some other notable achievements, I just don't know them. He seems to be "famous" more for painting than gaming though.

Pretty much this.

1 GT in the same year that the Codex dropped. Yeah, BA were a real tournament powerhouse in 5th.

 Kingsley wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
In 5th edition it had alot to do with Codex Creep.

SW's came out, we saw missile spam/ T-wolves with Las/plas razors. Blood Angels came out, we saw 5 man assault squads w/ cheap las/plas razor backs. GK came out we saw str 8 Psyfleman spam, w/ Coteaz and friends.

I don't think Codex Creep is real. To cite the example most commonly used, Space Wolves indeed do some things better than Space Marines-- but they also do some things worse. Their Devastators are better, but their Terminators are worse. Their Grey Hunters are better in assault, but they can't use Combat Squads to split up and park a heavy weapon on your rear objective. They have Counter-Attack, but they lose Combat Tactics. It's a series of tradeoffs-- and each book can still play to its comparative advantage.

Yes, SW's are not the sheer level of Codex Creep that most claim them to be, since every advantage they get over Vanilla Marines is offset by a disadvantage. Even amongst their two most bemoaned units, it's pretty major buffs AND drawbacks;
a) Grey Hunters to Tactical Marines. GH's will stand up better to assaults & are more mobile, but lose out on the ability to Combat Squad, Combat Tactics, no heavy weapon slot AND they pay a crapload extra for their Sergeant equivalent. (which also prevents them from having their character + 2 weapon upgrades while still fitting into their Rhino!)
Tacticals on the other hand are just that - far more flexible but will fold alot eaiser in combat.

b) Long Fangs can split fire and get cheaper weapon upgrades, but have 0 ablaitve wounds, meaning each casulty is very costly and seriously reduces the unit's effectiveness.
Devastators cost more, but can use Combat Squads to effectively do the same thing, (target 2 seperate units), but that ability can't be one-shoted out of the unit! And while they don't have as many heavy weapons, it's takes longer to remove those big guns due to the potential for upto 6 ablative wounds.



However, there is noticable Codex Creep once the BA's hit. Everything Vanilla Marines can do, Codex: BA's does it at +1.
Just compare the Assault Squad between the too books; Codex Marines can take a Flamer or Plasma Pistol + Sergeant equipment. They have Combat Squads & Combat Tactics and they can remove their Jump Packs for a 'free' transport.
Now, Codex BA's can take an Assault Squad that also gets a Plasma Gun or Meltagun on top of the Flamer/Plasma Pistol, their Sergeant gets the added Inferno pistol, they still have Combat Squads and in place of Combat Tactics, they instead pick-up DoA, Red Thirst AND are a scoring unit! However, the biggest advantage is that these guys can also remove their jump packs and instead get a -35pts discount on their now 'Fast' type transports!

Considering how the game worked when this book came out, BA's had a massively distinct advantage since they got the absolute best of the GH's & Tactical Squads;
- cheap transport to mech-up, which is also faster.
- ability to take the minimum number of men while still packing special weapons. (always a Meltagun since 5th was so dominated by vehicles)
- scoring unit.

Then on top of that, they also got cheaper Devastators, cheap ability to gain army-wide FnP, better Dreadnoughts, and most contentious of all, having the Baal Predator moved into the Fast Attack slot so BA's could still load up on the main Space Marine mainstay of preds & vindies.
And just to cover all the bases, BA's could still out-dreadnought Codex Marine's dreadnought army since they didn't require a mediocre HQ to unlock the ability AND gained both Libby Dreads and the 'Blendernaught' for the loss of the Ironclade.

And seriously, how can you not consider Codex: Grey Knights to be the epitome of codex creep? It had easy hard-counters for everything, while also being everything Marines are but this time jacked upto +11!
- Hordes giving you problems? Take a 140pts 'tax' IC and now you have the game's best anti-horde unit as Troops for endless spamability... Oh, and we also gave them additional special weapon upgrades so they can min/max better than anyone else AND toss in better and cheaper vehicle upgrades too so you can out-mech everyone as well!

- Tired of getting punked by Deep Strikers? Okay, here's 2 different squads that can make deep Striking 100% impossible, thereby forcing all those Drop Pods & DoA armies to walk.
Oh, soory Daemon players, you guys are just completely screwed so please shelve your armies now!

- IG mech-Vets causing you pain? Take another 100'ish pts 'tax' and now you can insanely cheap 3-man Meltagun teams racing around in Chimeras or Psybacks, but we also threw in an insanely awsome assault unit option as well!

- Don't like seeing your prescious models killed? Just want to put all those nasty Deathwing players in their place and make them cry their mantears?! Here's multi-wound Termies that can also get a FnP upgrade, and just to make things even better, we'll let you guys pull those same wound-allocation shinanigans that those filthy Ork players have been cheating with too!



Codex Creep did, (and likely will continue), to exist. The only thing we can hope for is that it doesn't go as insanely overboard as it did in 5th edition when it does happen!

 Red Comet wrote:

 DarkCorsair wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

Rampage wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:
Again, if BA were a competitive army now, you'd see top players using them and winning, which isn't the case.

Just a quick question as a non-BA player. I don't recall Blood Angels winning very many tournaments in 5th edition either, and yet they were still considered a strong Codex then. Tournament results have not changed for BA through the transition between 5th and 6th. Could you enlighten me as to which big GTs Blood Angels won and when during 5th?

Have you never heard of Jawaballs?

Of course, I don't live in a cave. Could you please fill me in on exactly which major GTs he won with his Blood Angels in 5th?

I don't think he's won any GT's
If I'm wrong, my mistake.

He won Mechanicon 2010 as well as placing 6th overall at NOVA Open 2011. I'm sure he probably has some other notable achievements, I just don't know them. He seems to be "famous" more for painting than gaming though.

Pretty much this.

I had no beef with BA in 5th. I think a lot of the infantry builds were underrated towards the end of the edition and you could string a lot of cool lists together. They did also win a tournaments after they were released, but it tapered off slowly until finally getting killed by 6th. I put my BA army in boxes and I would love to pick them up someday, but for now they're just not worth bringing to tournaments.

Experiment 626 wrote:
However, there is noticable Codex Creep once the BA's hit. Everything Vanilla Marines can do, Codex: BA's does it at +1.
Just compare the Assault Squad between the too books; Codex Marines can take a Flamer or Plasma Pistol + Sergeant equipment. They have Combat Squads & Combat Tactics and they can remove their Jump Packs for a 'free' transport.
Now, Codex BA's can take an Assault Squad that also gets a Plasma Gun or Meltagun on top of the Flamer/Plasma Pistol, their Sergeant gets the added Inferno pistol, they still have Combat Squads and in place of Combat Tactics, they instead pick-up DoA, Red Thirst AND are a scoring unit! However, the biggest advantage is that these guys can also remove their jump packs and instead get a -35pts discount on their now 'Fast' type transports!

Blood Angels Assault Squads are indeed better than Space Marine Assault Squads. But that doesn't mean Blood Angels are always better. For instance, TH/SS Terminators are 5 ppm cheaper in Codex: Space Marines, and can acquire Fleet or Master-Crafted. Further, Space Marines have better psychic powers, the extremely powerful and flexible Combat Tactics/Chapter Tactics ability, they don't have to pay points for Fast vehicles (not always something you want), they have access to Thunderfire Cannons (great in 6th edition!), they can take bikes as troops, their Whirlwinds are better, etc.

Each Codex has advantages and disadvantages-- I play Space Marines and have not wanted to switch my Codex to Blood Angels, simply because Codex: Space Marines better fits my playstyle.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Then on top of that, they also got cheaper Devastators, cheap ability to gain army-wide FnP, better Dreadnoughts, and most contentious of all, having the Baal Predator moved into the Fast Attack slot so BA's could still load up on the main Space Marine mainstay of preds & vindies.
And just to cover all the bases, BA's could still out-dreadnought Codex Marine's dreadnought army since they didn't require a mediocre HQ to unlock the ability AND gained both Libby Dreads and the 'Blendernaught' for the loss of the Ironclade.

Blood Angel Dreadnoughts are actually very inferior to Space Marine Dreadnoughts, because they take Heavy Support slots instead of Elites slots. SM shooty Dreadnoughts can be taken alongside other Heavy Support units, while Blood Angel Dreadnoughts cannot. Further, the Furioso and Furioso Librarian are IMO inferior to the Ironclad.

Experiment 626 wrote:
And seriously, how can you not consider Codex: Grey Knights to be the epitome of codex creep? It had easy hard-counters for everything, while also being everything Marines are but this time jacked upto +11!

Grey Knights are better than Marines, but they pay for their upgrades. What you get is generally fair for what you pay. This wasn't the case in 5th edition, but it's evident that Grey Knights were designed for 6th edition, and once it came out the problems with Grey Knights essentially went away. Fortitude, for instance, is fairly costed now-- I probably wouldn't pay 5 points for it most of the time-- and storm bolters lose a lot of their luster when normal bolters can move and shoot at 24" as well.

 Kingsley wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
In 5th edition it had alot to do with Codex Creep.

SW's came out, we saw missile spam/ T-wolves with Las/plas razors. Blood Angels came out, we saw 5 man assault squads w/ cheap las/plas razor backs. GK came out we saw str 8 Psyfleman spam, w/ Coteaz and friends.

I don't think Codex Creep is real. To cite the example most commonly used, Space Wolves indeed do some things better than Space Marines-- but they also do some things worse. Their Devastators are better, but their Terminators are worse. Their Grey Hunters are better in assault, but they can't use Combat Squads to split up and park a heavy weapon on your rear objective. They have Counter-Attack, but they lose Combat Tactics. It's a series of tradeoffs-- and each book can still play to its comparative advantage.

Excuse me? I run a loganwing and I will take them any day over deathwing or vanilla. If you don't go nuts, you have access to cheap termies with wolfclaws and combi-weapons... 215 points of death. Sure you cannot afford to buy stormshields but it is not as necessary. Face off against terminators? Fine I can shoot them to death. Frankly the only thing I don't like facing is SoB.

Counter-attack is superior in every way to combat tactics... Hello I can unload from a rhino or drop pod and fire and if you are foolish enough to charge me now I get to snapfire at you and then get +1 attack. Add to that cheap special weapons the banner and wolfkin and you should be able to dominate any vanilla marine.

I was under the impression that the first U.S. Major after 6th edition (as in used 6th rules) was won by a sisters of battle player. However I can't remember his name I thought he was a dakka regular too.

DAaddict wrote:

Excuse me? I run a loganwing and I will take them any day over deathwing or vanilla. If you don't go nuts, you have access to cheap termies with wolfclaws and combi-weapons... 215 points of death. Sure you cannot afford to buy stormshields but it is not as necessary. Face off against terminators? Fine I can shoot them to death. Frankly the only thing I don't like facing is SoB.

Counter-attack is superior in every way to combat tactics... Hello I can unload from a rhino or drop pod and fire and if you are foolish enough to charge me now I get to snapfire at you and then get +1 attack. Add to that cheap special weapons the banner and wolfkin and you should be able to dominate any vanilla marine.

Space Wolves are evil if you play right into the Puppies' hands.

Yes, trying to assault a Grey Hunter squad with Tactical Marines is beyond stupid and the Hunters will simply laugh while roflstomping those silly Tacticals. However, weathering the first round of shooting, then shooting back with your Tacticals while bringing up proper combat support from the likes of Termies or even a large Assault Squad will see those same Grey Hunters get their collective faces kicked in. They'll still do some damage, but they will lose as now numbers and/or specialisation is on the Vanilla's side.
Combat Tactics is also a big shift towards the Vanilla Marines since they can always try to basically just up and leave combat when they so choose. Against an intelligent Codex Marines player, SW's will have a hard time keeping the enemy locked up in combat when Combat Tactics kicks in.

Codex Marines are overall shootier than the SW's and at longer range. SW's are a far superior mid-ranged shooting army that has strong counter abilities. That's not 'Codex Creep', but rather most players just thinking SW's are simply 'blue-grey marines that die like any other marine'.

Codex Creep is more like the BA's being Codex Marines +1 in every aspect but a biker army!
Anything else Vanilla Marines can do, BA's do it better and/or for cheaper.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Codex Marines are overall shootier than the SW's and at longer range.

Although I completely agree with you regarding the longer range, and most of your points in general actually. I'm not really seeing how Vanilla Marines shoot better than Space Wolves. For 420pts Space Wolves can pick up 18 Long Fangs with 15 missile launchers. Just wondering how much shooting Vanilla Marines can pack for that many points? Not trying to argue just curious, I rarely get to play against Space Marines, as odd as that sounds.

 Rampage wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Codex Marines are overall shootier than the SW's and at longer range.

Although I completely agree with you regarding the longer range, and most of your points in general actually. I'm not really seeing how Vanilla Marines shoot better than Space Wolves. For 420pts Space Wolves can pick up 18 Long Fangs with 15 missile launchers. Just wondering how much shooting Vanilla Marines can pack for that many points? Not trying to argue just curious, I rarely get to play against Space Marines, as odd as that sounds.

Sure SW's get the cheaper long ranged power, but it's made of glass compared to Vanilla Marines. For 140pts you get just 6 guys and each one is an upgraded specialist, thus each time you lose a model you're losing 23.3 pts, whereas a 10-man Vanilla Dev squad with 4x rocket launchers only loses 23pts per casulty.
The Dev squad costs more up front, however, the first 5 casulties from the Dev Squad don't diminish their threat level at all! And they can still technically pull the same multi-targeting tactics through Combat Squads, (which also can't be countered by a single kill), AND one of those Missile Launchers will get BS5 thanks to the Sergeant's Signum.

Devastators are also overcosted in the Vanilla book - if you use the BA Codex costs, the pts lost per kill swing even further in favour of the Devs. However, Vanilla Marines can also choose options such as Mortis Dreads, Thunderfire Cannon, Tac Squad heavies, Sniper Scouts, Master of the Forge, dakka Predators, etc...
Most SW lists will simply stick to Longfangs and a combo of Speeders & Razorbacks to spam their heavy weapons. Vanilla Marines have 'oodles of options for spaming 36"+ guns and aren't relying on easy to kill 6-man squads or av10/11 vehicles.

Going first, the SW's will most likely earn their pts back before the Longfangs bite it. But if the Vanilla Marines go first, well, there's some nice 'free' kill points as 6 MEQ's in cover aren't hard to remove in 6th edition.

Heck, I'd say that even GK's have a better long ranged game than SW's since they get super cheap Psyflemen and mobile 30"+ psycannons on top of the standard transport options! People just get seriously butthurt because SW's get a deep discount on their one and only main heavy weapon group.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Codex Marines are overall shootier than the SW's and at longer range.

Although I completely agree with you regarding the longer range, and most of your points in general actually. I'm not really seeing how Vanilla Marines shoot better than Space Wolves. For 420pts Space Wolves can pick up 18 Long Fangs with 15 missile launchers. Just wondering how much shooting Vanilla Marines can pack for that many points? Not trying to argue just curious, I rarely get to play against Space Marines, as odd as that sounds.

Sure SW's get the cheaper long ranged power, but it's made of glass compared to Vanilla Marines. For 140pts you get just 6 guys and each one is an upgraded specialist, thus each time you lose a model you're losing 23.3 pts, whereas a 10-man Vanilla Dev squad with 4x rocket launchers only loses 23pts per casulty.
The Dev squad costs more up front, however, the first 5 casulties from the Dev Squad don't diminish their threat level at all! And they can still technically pull the same multi-targeting tactics through Combat Squads, (which also can't be countered by a single kill), AND one of those Missile Launchers will get BS5 thanks to the Sergeant's Signum.

Devastators are also overcosted in the Vanilla book - if you use the BA Codex costs, the pts lost per kill swing even further in favour of the Devs. However, Vanilla Marines can also choose options such as Mortis Dreads, Thunderfire Cannon, Tac Squad heavies, Sniper Scouts, Master of the Forge, dakka Predators, etc...
Most SW lists will simply stick to Longfangs and a combo of Speeders & Razorbacks to spam their heavy weapons. Vanilla Marines have 'oodles of options for spaming 36"+ guns and aren't relying on easy to kill 6-man squads or av10/11 vehicles.

Going first, the SW's will most likely earn their pts back before the Longfangs bite it. But if the Vanilla Marines go first, well, there's some nice 'free' kill points as 6 MEQ's in cover aren't hard to remove in 6th edition.

Heck, I'd say that even GK's have a better long ranged game than SW's since they get super cheap Psyflemen and mobile 30"+ psycannons on top of the standard transport options! People just get seriously butthurt because SW's get a deep discount on their one and only main heavy weapon group.

I agree with you for the most part, you make some good points, but +.3 points isn't really that much in order to be able to split fire without having to split up the squad.

As a Space Wolves player, I can say that Long Fangs are much more points efficient than Tac Squads, Sniper Scouts, Dakka Predators, etc. Not really sure about the Mortis Dread, as I don't get to play against Forge World much, but at least you are always allowed to field Long Fangs in tournaments. Most Space Wolf players also stick their sergeants at the front of squads to preserve the missiles, plus we have the option of putting Terminators at the front too to eat bullets for us. I played against Vanilla Marines with a Spartan Land Raider at 2,000pts tonight, at the end of the game, which ended on turn 7, I still had 2 of my Long Fang packs remaining, in kill points going second.

In short, if you were to make a mainly shooty Vanilla Marines list, and then you were to make a mainly shooty Space Wolves list, I would have to say the Wolves would probably be better.

Plus the Long Wangs actually still have all the assault benefits of Grey Hunters. And thats not even getting into the whole ide of putting terminator Wolf Guard in the unit as further bullet shielding/extra missiles. Honestly, does anyone by tactical marines from any book for their shooting ability?

I do find it interesting that a lot of these tier discussion threads always involve heated discussions from BA players. Its like the Rhino Rush age BA players want that level of power back and no one else can understand why they are unhappy having to alter their book to the new edition in every one of these threads. I think BA do have some issues, being the most assault dependant MEQ army, but they have ways of getting armor into the game that other books lack (outflanking Baal Preds, DSing LRs, access to Storm Ravens) and I think the BA community as a whole has been slow to adjust to the new edition.

who are these people putting BT in mid-tier/semi-competitive positions?????

People who have played Dave Fey mostly, but that guy can polish any turd when he puts his mind to it.

My 2 cents.

I don't necessarily feel that Templars are the worst codex kicking around at the moment (yeah I may be a bit biased), but they definately have their strengths. Double special weapons in terminator and tactical squads is immensely useful, and they still have access to things like cheaper typhoons. Land raider crusaders with blessed hulls are still a pain to kill. Losing preferred enemy sucked, but I reckon that actually made playing templars more tactical, as you now have to rely on getting the charge to benefit from rage.

Personal Judgment of things as they stand now:

Group 1
Chaos Daemons
Necrons
Imperial Guard
Grey Knights

Group 2
Space Wolves
Chaos Marines
Orks

Group 3
Space Marines
Blood Angels
Tau
Dark Eldar
Sisters of Battle
Eldar

Group 4
Tyranids
Dark Angels
Black Templars

Sort of interchangeable within groups, but not completely; as listed would be generally where I think each army stands if played well with as solid a list as can be built, given Fortifications ans Allies. For instance, Sisters with Guard Allies are considerably more competitive than Sisters w/o Guard Allies. Naturally, assumes the most competitive builds available.

Group 1: Daemons wreck your meta, don't give a damn about flyer-spam and bring not a single vehicle if they're smart; re-rollable invuls all over the place. Crazy Alpha strike puts them on top. Guard are the most versatile and have the most potent flyers around, really. GK are still very good. Necron Flying Circus would dominate, but....

Group 2: These armies, properly built, can actually beat the crap out of flyer-heavy lists, and with these same builds can wreck a lot of other armies out there. Lots of trouble with things like Daemons, though. Nurgle Chaos Marines with Epidemius allied in might be top tier, except for vulnerability of the Epi lynch-pin, and also of Typhus/DP (gets smashed by smartly positioned warbosses).

Group 3: Some of these are very close to Group 2; built right they are highly competitive against top tier armies, but unfortunately this frequently requires access to Forge World (Mortis Pattern Contemptors with Kheres Assault Cannons, and those tower things for Tau). DE are excellent Alpha Strike but fall apart too easily later on; again, Sisters absolutely require Allies to be truly competitive, and also need to be very well played; the lower end of this group has little to no room for error in list-building or play.

Group 4: Basically left in the dust by the new edition; DA have just been bad for a long time, although there is something to be said for Deathwing, so perhaps that belongs to Group 3? Bug Air Force could do well against some, but is hit or miss at best. Templars have just been completely left behind in this edition.

orkdom wrote:
Sisters absolutely require Allies to be truly competitive, and also need to be very well played; the lower end of this group has little to no room for error in list-building or play.

I would argue about them needing allies to be "truly competitive", but you are correct in that they do require a player who knows what to do with them for SoB to be effective.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
May I ask why DA are bottom 3 in almost every single one?

Because over costed proboly...
Atleast in my opinion, I run pure ravenwing and its useless playing under 1200-1500pts because your almost guaranteed to lose lol

The guy who said that Necron flying circus was first then IG then Necrons is right.

 Rampage wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm just wondering why Blood Angels are below Vanilla Marines? Blood Angels are Marines with more shiny special rules and units.

because they're expensive. for example. a BA vindie is 40% more expensive that a vanilla vindie. a lot of internet commandos on here will tell you that the fast USR is worth a 40% upcharge. they're wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phazael wrote:
Plus the Long Wangs actually still have all the assault benefits of Grey Hunters. And thats not even getting into the whole ide of putting terminator Wolf Guard in the unit as further bullet shielding/extra missiles. Honestly, does anyone by tactical marines from any book for their shooting ability?

I do find it interesting that a lot of these tier discussion threads always involve heated discussions from BA players. Its like the Rhino Rush age BA players want that level of power back and no one else can understand why they are unhappy having to alter their book to the new edition in every one of these threads. I think BA do have some issues, being the most assault dependant MEQ army, but they have ways of getting armor into the game that other books lack (outflanking Baal Preds, DSing LRs, access to Storm Ravens) and I think the BA community as a whole has been slow to adjust to the new edition.

"deep striking land raiders"

yeah, being able to DS a tank the size of a shoe box is really useful and smart.

phoenixrisin wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm just wondering why Blood Angels are below Vanilla Marines? Blood Angels are Marines with more shiny special rules and units.

because they're expensive. for example. a BA vindie is 40% more expensive that a vanilla vindie. a lot of internet commandos on here will tell you that the fast USR is worth a 40% upcharge. they're wrong.

If I were you I wouldn't insult people who disagree with you just because they disagree with you. Especially when you're necroing a thread. It kinda makes you look silly.

 Red Comet wrote:
Why is everyone rating Blood Angels so highly? 6th Edition really nerfed us BA players. =(

because they don't actually play the game and they just sit online and theory hammer all day. anyone who has actually attempted to make a list with BA would never defend them. plus, look at the tourney rosters out there. the drop off of BA players is insane. that is not a coincidence.

the generic response here has been "but deep striking land raiders! fast vindies!" you can take 4 vindies in a vanilla list for LESS than three BA vindies. BA have to pay for TH/SS, they rely on small numbers of elite units with special rules. ALL of which have been nerfed FC, FNP...death co perform about as good as plague marines and they are more expensive and non scoring. mech heavy lists are terrible now. anyone who says different is just simply not playing games against competitive lists.

Necrons
Imperial Guard
Grey Knights
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Dark Eldar
Chaos Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Black Templar
Dark Angels
Tyranids
Eldar
Chaos Daemons
Tau
Sisters

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm just wondering why Blood Angels are below Vanilla Marines? Blood Angels are Marines with more shiny special rules and units.

because they're expensive. for example. a BA vindie is 40% more expensive that a vanilla vindie. a lot of internet commandos on here will tell you that the fast USR is worth a 40% upcharge. they're wrong.

If I were you I wouldn't insult people who disagree with you just because they disagree with you. Especially when you're necroing a thread. It kinda makes you look silly.

how is voicing my opinion insulting? does the truth hurt?

PS: very hypocritical of you to slap my hand for insulting while you call me silly. powertrip much?

phoenixrisin wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm just wondering why Blood Angels are below Vanilla Marines? Blood Angels are Marines with more shiny special rules and units.

because they're expensive. for example. a BA vindie is 40% more expensive that a vanilla vindie. a lot of internet commandos on here will tell you that the fast USR is worth a 40% upcharge. they're wrong.

If I were you I wouldn't insult people who disagree with you just because they disagree with you. Especially when you're necroing a thread. It kinda makes you look silly.

how is voicing my opinion insulting? does the truth hurt?

PS: very hypocritical of you to slap my hand for insulting while you call me silly. powertrip much?

No, I think you'll find that calling people "internet commandos [sic]" without anyone being remotely hostile to you is really rude, without any reason. Hence it makes you look silly. Your response to me, which is way more hostile than I feel is merited, is also silly. Seriously, calm down. I agree with you that BA aren't super-powerful, but they're at least on par with Vanilla IMO.

phoenixrisin wrote:
anyone who says different is just simply not playing games against competitive lists.

And again with the silly arguments. Do you have anything backing this up or is this just true because you say so and we should take your word for it? Stop being a bully and start arguing with sound argumentative techniques or this isn't going to go anywhere.