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Hulksmash: So. What. You just always support the strongest side in a conflict?

Da Boss wrote:
Hulksmash: So. What. You just always support the strongest side in a conflict?

Empathy was invented after the 40's.... apparently.

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So anyone but me have a solution?

Let 'em go at it.

Sell weapons to both sides to hasten the results. /joking

There you go. Now thats an additional time honored tradition too!

I support the side that supports us.

However, I don't believe in supporting Israel no matter what. They've done much to Palestine that people shouldn't turn a blind eye too. Their hands aren't clean.

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid in the world, so I can see why they'd support you guys.

 whembly wrote:

Da Boss wrote:
You seem to be proposing slow motion genocide, or at least approving it, since you have not criticised the continual expansion of Israel's settlements and the nature of the blockade.

As to what I propose to resolve this, feth, I don't know. The Peace Process in Northern Ireland was incredibly torturous and even now risks being undone by dissidents, and there was nowhere near the level of (justified) bad blood on both sides.
But I think a goddamned START would be if the US would stop supporting Israel so damn ardently and criticise them a bit for there misteps, just as they should criticise and not support Hamas. You guys give them a fethtonne of money, that makes you somewhat responsible, to my mind.

This isn't a black or white situation...

And again, they're our Allies... by nature, we're supposed to support them.

We also give a gethtonne of money to Egypt? So, what's your point?

We should quit writing checks to foreign governments for...anything? Reduces the deficit and helps get us out of harm's way?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:
Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid in the world, so I can see why they'd support you guys.

Egypt is the second. How'd that work out for us?

Cut them all off.

America has no leg to stand on when it comes to discussing annexing territory from it's former inhabitants

I agree with Hulksmash. I do draw the line though if Isreal commences with genocide similiar to what happen in Kosovo and Bosnia.

The Palestinians decisions over the years have made this bed and now the get to lay in it.
Their neighbors don't take them in en mass because when that last happened they tried to take land from Jordan by armed force and the King of Jordan sent in the tanks.

Well, I'm glad we're drawing the line at genocide.

You have to set the bar high these days..

 Frazzled wrote:


Cut them all off.

I have no problem with this approach, either.

Or cut the aid to the ones that spend the money on tanks instead of food.

Maybe I'm a bit biase to because I lived and worked under those conditions to. Its not fun when the rocket alerts comes on and everyone dashes for the bunkers.

 kronk wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Cut them all off.

I have no problem with this approach, either.

Wait? Are we "giving" them money?

Or, is it that we're allowed to sell "x" amount of defense weapons to Israel?

Da Boss wrote:
Or cut the aid to the ones that spend the money on tanks instead of food.

Nope.

Cut them all off. No food, no money. Let's focus on ourselves for a decade and let the world sort itself out.

Those that were meant to survive will.

@Da Boss

I don't always take the side of the strongest. In this case it happens I agree with the strongest but that isn't always the case. I just have trouble empathizing with people who are idiots. And like it or not how the palestinians are acting and have been acting for the last several decades is idiotic.

@Crablezworth

Empathy wasn't invented after the 1940's. But I'd throw out there that it National Empathy was developed much later than that. Appear weak before that and invite yourself to foreign rule. That's not allowed so much nowadays.

@Thread

In general I'm a fan of grow up or get out. But the world doesn't really accept that idea anymore.

*deep breath*

Right. Okay. I can see you're ignoring several points here, so I will reiterate.
Israel is allowing settlers to gradually expand the area that they claim as their own, forcing the Palestinians further back. Whether an armed solution is the right idea or not, can you not see how it would happen in that situation? This is not even mentioning the other provocations.

I'm not saying Hamas are in the right, but god damnit, supporting one side over the other in this situation is not only idiotic, it is MORALLY WRONG.

Da Boss wrote:
Or cut the aid to the ones that spend the money on tanks instead of food.

No cut them all off. We still get the blame and don't get the credit.
I don't know if now, but there was a time when we were shipping rice to Egypt - with "foriegn aid from the USA" or such. The Egyptians rebagged all the rice before shipping it out so people couldn't see it was a gift from the US.

The best thing we can do is - like Switzerland - nothing except offer to send low level functionaries to help mediate negotiations. No one gets aid. No one gets protection.

Of course that might be a careful of what you wish for scenario. An unfettered Israel might truly go off.

Good for them. Israel's neighbour's are rather aggressive, I can support that they respond in turn by standing up for themselves. My family's background's Jewish, and though my mother wants to distance herself from that because of Israel's more recent actions, I don't see a problem with a people defending themselves. Israel feel that it needs to constantly over play its hand though, so its just a pity that these skirmishes are probably going to end up with another war in the region though. =/

Da Boss wrote:

I'm not saying Hamas are in the right, but god damnit, supporting one side over the other in this situation is not only idiotic, it is MORALLY WRONG.

The US has been withholding money from Israel and forcing them to back down on a number of expansions. To say that we've been blindly giving them aid is also wrong. Here is a Wiki Primer

Good reading for those that think Israel is without fault.

Da Boss wrote:
*deep breath*

Right. Okay. I can see you're ignoring several points here, so I will reiterate.
Israel is allowing settlers to gradually expand the area that they claim as their own, forcing the Palestinians further back. Whether an armed solution is the right idea or not, can you not see how it would happen in that situation? This is not even mentioning the other provocations.

I'm not saying Hamas are in the right, but god damnit, supporting one side over the other in this situation is not only idiotic, it is MORALLY WRONG.

Y'know, if I were surrounded by several neighbors who had stated, at various points throughout my history, that their goal was to drive me into the sea, and supported the idiots lobbing rockets into my civilian populations for no reason other than to cause terror, I'd probably try to grab as much land as possible, too.

@Da Boss

I think you need to take a step back. I can absolutely choose to support one side over another based on ideology, my personal beliefs, or my own moral compass. I could even support one side by flipping a coin if I chose (though I would agree this would be stupid).

As for settling the region and pushing back the palestinians it's been pointed out time and again in this thread (and you've ignored it) that this isn't happening in the Gaza region. You do realize that you can live in peace in Israel if you are muslim or christian right? But it's pretty hard to live in other areas of the middle east as a Jew.

I can understand some of the issues faced by Palestinians. But can you understand that many of them were caused by the Palestinians themselves? I don't think Israel can do no wrong but I do find them more in the right based on their situation than I do the Palestinians.

Think the last arms deal we had with Isreal was selling them like 14 Apaches Longbows like within six months. So they've brought a battalion worth of attack helicopters that the terrain strongly supports them

I will step back, and I will read Kronk's primer. Hulk, your last argument was fair, and my last statement was hyperbole.

The interesting parts are the pressure that Clinton, Bush, and Obama have put on the Israeli Prime Minister to back down on a lot of their expansions. Something I wasn't aware of, to be honest.

 kronk wrote:
The interesting parts are the pressure that Clinton, Bush, and Obama have put on the Israeli Prime Minister to back down on a lot of their expansions.

And if that pressure is gone, what happens?

 Frazzled wrote:

 kronk wrote:
The interesting parts are the pressure that Clinton, Bush, and Obama have put on the Israeli Prime Minister to back down on a lot of their expansions.

And if that pressure is gone, what happens?

Cry Havoc!

 Frazzled wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I don't know why, but I have always loved Israel's response to the shenanigans of HAMAS, and other "terrorist" groups that hit them...

I wouldn't call them shenanigans. More like using a tomahawk missile to kill a really annoying fly who won't leave you alone when you're trying to eat.

More like using a tomahawk missile to kill guys firing other missiles into your country.

Why is Hamas shooting missiles into Israel again?

Because they are denied access to most foodstuffs, products and form of dignity and are constantly being bombed invaded or overflown by supersonic jets at treetop height. Their homes are bulldozed, they are shot at by snipers with impunity from Israeli watchtowers and their land is being stolen.

Would it piss you off Frazzie?

I would have moved away long ago. But then again I've been accused of occasionally being sane.
What is the answer for them (I know what it should be for us - aka the USA GETOUT GETOUT GETOUT).

So the Israelis want your country and will bomb you until you leave.

The BBC provided a picture of one of the "terrorists" killed in the airstrikes by those poor long suffering Israelis.

It's hard to not see justification in attacking an entity that has fired hundreds of rockets at you over the past week. There's no genocide and the clear distinction here is Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians whereas Hamas and its bros base everything they have around attacking civilians.

 Orlanth wrote:
The BBC provided a picture of one of the "terrorists" killed in the airstrikes by those poor long suffering Israelis.

Well, I'm convinced. If the Israelis have killed children while targeting terrorists, clearly they're far worse than the guys who blow up buses full of civilians, pizza restaurants, ice cream parlors, grocery stores, houses, and so forth; at least those guys check to make sure there aren't any kids around first.

Right?