Israel whacks Hamas commander in response to rocket attacks from Gaza

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**Hulksmash**

@Da Boss

No worries. People passionate about things can get worked up

**Huffy**

PhantomViper wrote:

The Israelis have been under attack from the Palestinians and their neighbouring Arab countries ever since the UN have voted them into existence, and have been kicking their collective buts since aproximately that time as well.

The last real "war" was in '73; no the spats in Lebanon, West Bank, and Gaza dont count....Israeli existence hasn't been under threat since the 6 day war.

The "plight" of the Palestinian people is one of their own making

If they would put down their weapons and didn't elect terrorists as their representatives, they would probably also have an independent Palestinian nation by now.

So they elected the wrong group, ergo its all their fault......clearly they should have elected the pro-Israel party. And its awful hard to tell people who've been fighting for generations to put down their weapons when they face blockades and water being diverted from their lands and so on.

I don't support the actions of Hamas and other Palestinian factions but the heavy handed response of Israel is also unacceptable. I like Frazzled's idea of cutting off all aid; failing that we should give both sides heavy weapons, then break out the popcorn

**NEWater**

I just wish Iran would get the bomb already.

**Crablezworth**

UPDATE:

Israel takes its first casualties, 3 israelis have been killed in a rocket strike, 6 more palestinians dead in gaza.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCABRE8AD0WP20121115?pageNumber=5&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true

**Huffy**

Crablezworth wrote:
UPDATE:

Israel takes its first casualties, 3 israelis have been killed in a rocket strike, 6 more palestinians dead in gaza.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCABRE8AD0WP20121115?pageNumber=5&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true

Well this is escalating quickly, Israelis will probably roll into Gaza soon

**Frazzled**

NEWater wrote:
I just wish Iran would get the bomb already.

And do what with it?

**Harriticus**

I wonder why civilians end up dying when Israel attacks people who launch rockets:

Oh wait, nevermind.

**Jihadin**

And do what with it?

No idea why I laughed at your reply Frazz but I agree.

edit
On a side bar I had to look up what they're using for rockets. Thank Gawd the insurgents in Afghanistan are not on to this. They use the PoS chinese rocket...eerrr russian rocket

The Qassam rocket (Arabic: صاروخ القسام‎ Ṣārūkh al-Qassām; also Kassam) is a simple steel artillery rocket developed and deployed by the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the military arm of Hamas. Three models have been produced and used between 2001 and 2011.

More generally, all types of Palestinian rockets fired into southern Israel, for example the Palestinian Islamic Jihad Al Quds rockets, are called Qassams by the Israeli media, and often by foreign media.[4]

The Qassam gained notoriety as the best-known type of rocket deployed by Palestinian militants mainly against Israeli civilians, but also some military targets during the Second Intifada of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.[5][6] Since 2000, Palestinian rockets, which include the Qassam, alongside others such as the Grad rocket, have claimed the lives of 22 Israelis and one Thai national

Origin

Qassam rockets are named after the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the armed branch of Hamas, itself named for Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, a militant Syrian preacher whose death during a guerrilla raid against British Mandatory authorities in 1935 was one of the catalysts for the 1936 Arab Revolt.[9][10]

[edit] Rocket launches

The production of Qassams began in September 2001 following the outbreak of the Second Intifada. The first Qassam to be launched was the Qassam-1, fired on October 2001, with a maximum range of 3 kilometers (1.9 mi) to 4.5 kilometers (2.8 mi).[9] February 10, 2002 was the first time Palestinians launched rockets into Israel, rather than at Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip. One of the rockets landed in Kibbutz Saad.[11] A Qassam first hit an Israeli city on March 5, 2002 when two rockets struck the southern city of Sderot. Some rockets have hit as far as the edge of Ashkelon. By the end of December 2008, a total of 15 people had been killed by Palestinian rockets since attacks began in 2001.[12]

Rocket design and cost

Rockets being exhibited
The aim of the Qassam rocket design appears to be ease and speed of manufacture, using common tools and components. To this end, the rockets are propelled by a solid mixture of sugar and potassium nitrate, a widely available fertilizer. The warhead is filled with smuggled or scavenged TNT and urea nitrate, another common fertilizer.[13]

The rocket consists of a steel cylinder, containing a rectangular block of the propellant. A steel plate which forms and supports the nozzles are then spot-welded to the base of the cylinder. The warhead consists of a simple metal shell surrounding the explosives, and is triggered by a fuze constructed using a simple firearm cartridge, a spring and a nail.[13]

While early designs used a single nozzle which screwed into the base, recent rockets use a seven-nozzle design, with the nozzles drilled directly into the rocket baseplate. This change both increases the tolerance of the rocket to small nozzle design defects, and eases manufacture by allowing the use of a drill rather than a lathe during manufacture due to the smaller nozzle size. Unlike many other rockets, the nozzles are not canted, which means the rocket does not spin about its longitudinal axis during flight. While this results in a significant decrease in accuracy, it greatly simplifies rocket manufacture and the launch systems required.[13] The propellant of Palestinian rockets is generally made from fertilizer, and the TNT warhead is smuggled through the Rafah border tunnels into the Gaza Strip.

Cost

The cost of the materials used for manufacturing each Qassam is up to $800 or €500 (in 2008-9) per rocket

Israeli reaction

An Israeli boy and resident of Sderot crippled by Palestinian Qassam rocket fire.[16]

A Qassam rocket is displayed in Sderot town hall against a background of pictures of residents killed in rocket attacks
The introduction of the Qassam rocket took Israeli politicians and military experts by surprise,[17] and reactions have been mixed.[18] In 2006, the Israeli Ministry of Defense viewed the Qassams as "more a psychological than physical threat."[19] A 2008 study found that over half of Sderot's residents have been hurt, either physically or psychologically by Qassams.[20] The Israel Defence Force has reacted to the deployment of the Qassam rockets by deploying the Red Color early warning system in Sderot, Ashkelon and other at-risk targets. The system consists of an advanced radar that detects rockets as they are being launched, and loudspeakers warn civilians to take cover between 15 and 45 seconds before impact[21] in an attempt to minimize the threat posed by the rockets. A system called Iron Dome, designed to intercept the rockets before they can hit their targets, is in use since March 2011. A Second system (Nautilios) is developed for intercepting Qassam via laser beams.

[edit] Palestinian reaction

The firing of Qassam rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel has been opposed by those living closest to the firing location due to Israeli military responses. On July 23, 2004 a family attempted to physically prevent the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades from setting up a Qassam rocket launcher outside their house. Members of the brigade shot one member of the family, an Arab boy, and wounded 5 others.[22][23][24][25] In October 2010 five children and three women were injured after a Qassam rocket training site exploded near a crowded residential area of Tel As-Sultan in Rafah. Palestinian Center for Human Rights has condemned Hamas for storing explosive material near civilians. In August a similar explosion wounded 58 and destroyed seven houses.

**AustonT**

Da Boss wrote:You seem to be proposing slow motion genocide

Fine, I'll be the one that says it: yes.
I care feth all for Palestinians as a group. They are untrustworthy violent snakes. You'll find Palestinian supporters of the peace process wind up dead or expatriates (and then quite possibly dead in suspicious circumstances). I'm not afraid to say that I want Palestinians to disappear, when Arafat rejected the offer at Camp David he rejected any right of the Palestinians to negotiate, or as Clinton called it "The impossible more." Barak offered the Palestinians everything, and when they rejected it they should have received nothing. If Israel was to reassert full control over the POT and initiate a pogrom to remove Hamas and other dissidents I'd happily ( and no doubt un-popularly) cheer them along. Because the average "Palestinian" would be better off as an Israeli Arab. At the same time Israel should demand that all Arabs accept citizenship (for those that continue to refuse but receive government services and local voting rights.) or face deportation. Israel has been conciliatory for long enough, while people like you bitch and moan about how awful they are. Let them secure their territories once and for all and protect their citizens and anyone inside those border can get in line or leave. Quite frankly Israel is a socialist utopia, the ones that leave would be idiots. Let the Palestinian dream live on in Egypt or Jordan and see how long THEY tolerate the Palestinians bs. Jordan's already had it's taste.

Da Boss wrote:AustonT: if you think the two aren't linked...

It's really hard to use the justification that "Jews are stealing our land!" When the Jews forced the stubborn Jews out of their houses to give you land. If you really think that the link to Israeli settlers in the West Bank is that strong I suppose you also support the Israelis launching reprisals in the West Bank for all the Gaza missile attacks, right?

same issue wrote:
Da Boss wrote:Or cut the aid to the ones that spend the money on tanks instead of food.

whembly wrote:
kronk wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Cut them all off.

I have no problem with this approach, either.

Wait? Are we "giving" them money?

Or, is it that we're allowed to sell "x" amount of defense weapons to Israel?

We give Israel money specifically to buy weapons, from us, but also from themselves in a larger proportion of that money than any other nation we give defense aid to. The unwritten half of that deal is that we get unrestricted access to their RandD. Which we have benefited from in spades.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NEWater wrote:
I just wish Iran would get the bomb already.

The rules of this site do not permit adequate rebuttal to this comment.

**Frazzled**

Harriticus wrote:
I wonder why civilians end up dying when Israel attacks people who launch rockets:

Oh wait, nevermind.

I may be the only that sees that pic and think "wow I bet their traffic would drive me insane."

**Huffy**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20330081

This is a really good piece on the current escalation

**KalashnikovMarine**

kronk wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Or cut the aid to the ones that spend the money on tanks instead of food.

Nope.

Cut them all off. No food, no money. Let's focus on ourselves for a decade and let the world sort itself out.

Those that were meant to survive will.

Exalted. Exactly, I'm sick of giving out billions in aid that could be doing all sorts of good work right here at home and then having the world spit in our eye.

AustonT wrote:
Da Boss wrote:You seem to be proposing slow motion genocide

Fine, I'll be the one that says it: yes.
I care feth all for Palestinians as a group. They are untrustworthy violent snakes. You'll find Palestinian supporters of the peace process wind up dead or expatriates (and then quite possibly dead in suspicious circumstances). I'm not afraid to say that I want Palestinians to disappear, when Arafat rejected the offer at Camp David he rejected any right of the Palestinians to negotiate, or as Clinton called it "The impossible more." Barak offered the Palestinians everything, and when they rejected it they should have received nothing. If Israel was to reassert full control over the POT and initiate a pogrom to remove Hamas and other dissidents I'd happily ( and no doubt un-popularly) cheer them along. Because the average "Palestinian" would be better off as an Israeli Arab. At the same time Israel should demand that all Arabs accept citizenship (for those that continue to refuse but receive government services and local voting rights.) or face deportation. Israel has been conciliatory for long enough, while people like you bitch and moan about how awful they are. Let them secure their territories once and for all and protect their citizens and anyone inside those border can get in line or leave. Quite frankly Israel is a socialist utopia, the ones that leave would be idiots. Let the Palestinian dream live on in Egypt or Jordan and see how long THEY tolerate the Palestinians bs. Jordan's already had it's taste.

Exalted and quoted for truth.

Seaward wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
The BBC provided a picture of one of the "terrorists" killed in the airstrikes by those poor long suffering Israelis.

Well, I'm convinced. If the Israelis have killed children while targeting terrorists, clearly they're far worse than the guys who blow up buses full of civilians, pizza restaurants, ice cream parlors, grocery stores, houses, and so forth; at least those guys check to make sure there aren't any kids around first.

Right?

A really good friend of mine lost her little sister in a suicide bombing in Israel back in the 90s. I personally can see exactly how much of a threat a seven year old girl and her mother were to the Palestinian people can't you? /sarcasm

As to the donkey cave who seemed to be implying they want a nation nuked off the face of the Earth...

**Testify**

Glorioski wrote:
The official IRA is no longer armed

Fixed that for you. There's plenty of guns in Catholic Belfest, don't worry about that

Though on the whole yeah, the IRA is a shadow of its former self.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Exalted. Exactly, I'm sick of giving out billions in aid that could be doing all sorts of good work right here at home and then having the world spit in our eye.

So you'd be happy for Isreal to be destroyed and the Jewish people obliterated? Just so we're clear.

**Frazzled**

Testify wrote:
Glorioski wrote:
The official IRA is no longer armed

Fixed that for you. There's plenty of guns in Catholic Belfest, don't worry about that Though on the whole yeah, the IRA is a shadow of its former self.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Exalted. Exactly, I'm sick of giving out billions in aid that could be doing all sorts of good work right here at home and then having the world spit in our eye.

So you'd be happy for Isreal to be destroyed and the Jewish people obliterated? Just so we're clear.

Meh, you may think there are plenty of arms. To a Texan its positively a firearms desert.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Testify wrote:
Glorioski wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Exalted. Exactly, I'm sick of giving out billions in aid that could be doing all sorts of good work right here at home and then having the world spit in our eye.

So you'd be happy for Isreal to be destroyed and the Jewish people obliterated? Just so we're clear.

Last I checked Israel has a wonderful defense industry that works quite well (better then the U.S.'s) and is supplemented by one of the better military forces in the world, sounds like Israel really doesn't need help from the U.S. to defend itself. Thanks for playing though.

Frazzled wrote:
Testify wrote:
Glorioski wrote:
The official IRA is no longer armed

Fixed that for you. There's plenty of guns in Catholic Belfest, don't worry about that Though on the whole yeah, the IRA is a shadow of its former self.

Meh, you may think there are plenty of arms. To a Texan its positively a firearms desert.

Hell it's a firearms desert compared to my personal gun safe.

**Frazzled**

Testify wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Exalted. Exactly, I'm sick of giving out billions in aid that could be doing all sorts of good work right here at home and then having the world spit in our eye.

So you'd be happy for Isreal to be destroyed and the Jewish people obliterated? Just so we're clear.

Not seeing where you're getting from A to B. The US deciding to pull back its incredible foreign aid support in the region (civilian and military) does not equate to being ok if a people are obliterated.

If the existence of Israel's population is dependent on US aid then they need to be shipped to the US, or Puerto Rico (soon to be the US too hopefully). If you're going to be US citizens, you should like be in the USA no?

**Testify**

Frazzled wrote:
Meh, you may think there are plenty of arms. To a Texan its positively a firearms desert.

Unlike guns in Texas they're unlikely to be used against soldiers of the state.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Last I checked Israel has a wonderful defense industry that works quite well (better then the U.S.'s) and is supplemented by one of the better military forces in the world, sounds like Israel really doesn't need help from the U.S. to defend itself. Thanks for playing though.

Isreal does have a wonderful defence industry. However they are outnumbered around 50 to 1 by the Arabs around them. I doubt the technical/strategic advantage is *that* good.

Frazzled wrote:
Not seeing where you're getting from A to B. The US deciding to pull back its incredible foreign aid support in the region (civilian and military) does not equate to being ok if a people are obliterated.

If the existence of Israel's population is dependent on US aid then they need to be shipped to the US, or Puerto Rico (soon to be the US too hopefully). If you're going to be US citizens, you should like be in the USA no?

On the scale of the United States economy it's tiny. The USA gives $3 billion dollars a year. We both know that's nothing.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Testify wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Last I checked Israel has a wonderful defense industry that works quite well (better then the U.S.'s) and is supplemented by one of the better military forces in the world, sounds like Israel really doesn't need help from the U.S. to defend itself. Thanks for playing though.

Isreal does have a wonderful defence industry. However they are outnumbered around 50 to 1 by the Arabs around them. I doubt the technical/strategic advantage is *that* good.

Frazzled wrote:
Not seeing where you're getting from A to B. The US deciding to pull back its incredible foreign aid support in the region (civilian and military) does not equate to being ok if a people are obliterated.

If the existence of Israel's population is dependent on US aid then they need to be shipped to the US, or Puerto Rico (soon to be the US too hopefully). If you're going to be US citizens, you should like be in the USA no?

On the scale of the United States economy it's tiny. The USA gives $3 billion dollars a year. We both know that's nothing.

So you're saying Israel needs it's $3 billion a year in foreign aid to survive... but that that amount of money is nothing? Make up your mind man! Also see pretty much every war Israel's been previously involved in. The tech advantage wasn't even as good as it is now and it's curb checked all it's neighbors to the point the ones right around them with Lebanon excluded probably don't want to try again. Egypt is possible but they're having internal issues, as is Syria. Jordan's pretty damn moderate for a Muslim nation and again has gotten a serious bloody nose the past couple times. So that leaves Iraq (internal problems and US ally, Saudia Arabia US ally to busy making money, Turkey - to far away to care, US Ally, NATO member, respectable nation. annnnd Iran who would have to go through at least two nations to get where they want to go and drive the Israelis into the sea.

Is it possible for the whole ME to rise up and attack? Yes but not likely. Regardless pulling the annual financial aid to the Israelis wouldn't hurt them that much and I'm not saying we shouldn't continue to have their backs as a long time ally in the region.

Any way, the 3 billion isn't what we're talking about with regards to aid, it's the 53 billion (rounded up slightly) that the US gives out every year.

**Orlanth**

Seaward wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
The BBC provided a picture of one of the "terrorists" killed in the airstrikes by those poor long suffering Israelis.

Well, I'm convinced. If the Israelis have killed children while targeting terrorists, clearly they're far worse than the guys who blow up buses full of civilians, pizza restaurants, ice cream parlors, grocery stores, houses, and so forth; at least those guys check to make sure there aren't any kids around first.

Right?

Actually governments are supposed to be better than the terrorists.
Civilian casualties in Gaza are massive.

**JEB_Stuart**

Glad to see some things never change in the OTF.

First of all, we all need to acknowledge something regarding this situation: None of us knows what it is like to be living in their shoes, and so at best, we are playing armchair generals and politicians.

Now that we have checked our egos at the door, let us consider the reality Israel is facing with the current state of the ME. There are more then a few items that have them nervously watching their TV and computer screens. While I am sure everyone here is educated and well informed, I think it would be best to revisit a select number of instances: Syria has descended into civil war, and has been shelling/bombing Israeli territory. On top of that there is a distinct possibility that the constant clashes on the Turko-Syrian border could escalate into something much worse, Egypt is talking about tossing out the peace accord between themselves and the Israelis (which would include re-militarizing the Sinai Peninsula), Iran's seemingly unstoppable march to obtaining a nuclear device, and a whole slew of new Islamist governments which are weak, inexperienced and hot blooded. Of course, this isn't the half of it when it comes to the ME, but that goes without being said.

All of this could have led to an attitude in Israel that they need to show their zero tolerance policy for any problems, and led them to being much more public about their plans for self defense and retaliation. Gaza is the absolute easiest of targets because it is constantly provoking Israel, and Israel isn't really going to lose anything by very publicly giving a show of strength towards them. I am not saying this is the best way to handle this, but I personally tend to support Israel because of the constant threats and crap that is slung their way by all of their neighbors. I am not claiming I have a good solution to all of this, but I think this should help us keep a strong contextual viewpoint of the problems going on at this moment, and examine the situation with greater clarity.

**whembly**

Frazzled wrote:
NEWater wrote:
I just wish Iran would get the bomb already.

And do what with it?

nice.

Iran with "the" bomb is a different topic.

Back on topic... this is getting serious.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Da Boss wrote:

I'm not saying Hamas are in the right, but god damnit, supporting one side over the other in this situation is not only idiotic, it is MORALLY WRONG.

By some people's logic, France and much of Belgium should not be countries. The Germans took that land through "lawful" armed conflict, and yet we (Brittain, America, and Russia) forced Germany to give it back.

In some ways, we are still doing this, only in reverse. Israel would very easily take Gaza and the West Bank through military force (and I'd argue, without the use of genocide), but thus far much of the Western World is forcing them to "play nice" and give the Palestinians land to live in.

**KalashnikovMarine**

I hate topics like this because I really hate people telling me what is and is not "morally" right.

**sebster**

AustonT wrote:
I care feth all for Palestinians as a group. They are untrustworthy violent snakes.

It occurs to me that if we could ever get the bottom of finding out how people end up thinking nonsense like the above, then we'd have not only a solution to the problem of Israel and Palestine, but likely a solution to every humanitarian disaster caused by conflict.

But I suspect we'll never understand how a person could end up writing off a whole people.

**whembly**

sebster wrote:
AustonT wrote:
I care feth all for Palestinians as a group. They are untrustworthy violent snakes.

It occurs to me that if we could ever get the bottom of finding out how people end up thinking nonsense like the above, then we'd have not only a solution to the problem of Israel and Palestine, but likely a solution to every humanitarian disaster caused by conflict.

But I suspect we'll never understand how a person could end up writing off a whole people.

Okay seb... I'll bite.

Where do you draw the line and hold a group of people responsible for their government?

**LordofHats**

Hamas is a government? Lulz. Hamas is a bunch of madmen who just take everyone else along for the ride

**Lone Cat**

So the Hamas and their 'holy war' isn't a real challenge to Israelite armed forces? if so then Hamas is actually dependent on Al Assard regime rather than a direct support from Teheran or Sino-Russian bloc.

And how Iran reacts to it? How will they use their nukes if the they really posesses a functional sets of any.
1. Nuke first. invade later
2. Nuke if they're going to lose the full blown war so no victor will be declared once it's over.

Of course this will infuriate Teharan as ever.

**whembly**

LordofHats wrote:
Hamas is a government? Lulz. Hamas is a bunch of madmen who just take everyone else along for the ride

Wait... am I wrong? Didn't the Palestinian elect the Hamas?

**Seaward**

Orlanth wrote:

Actually governments are supposed to be better than the terrorists.
Civilian casualties in Gaza are massive.

Civilian casualties in Gaza are "massive" because the people waging a campaign of terrorism against Israel continue to hide out among - you guessed it - civilians in Gaza. With the knowledge and support of said civilians, for the record. Israelis do not target civilians, Palestinian terrorists routinely target civilians. Israel could wipe the Palestinians off the face of the planet if it chose to do so, and has not. The Palestinians elected a 'government' whose stated goal is to wipe Israel off the face of the planet.

If that's moral equivalency in your eyes, then I'll too have to simply say that the rules of the site prevent my response.

**Ouze**

I sure wish my country would wash it's hands of the whole affair. This isn't a problem within the purview of the United States, it doesn't affect our national security, and we should stop sending money to either side. If anything, our ham-fisted attempts to "help" have actually weakened our security.