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 AustonT wrote:

AustonT wrote:Roll back a little. Since the UN voted who into existence?

PhantomViper wrote: crickets

If you were hoping to just keep posting walls of unrelated text so I'd forget the question: I will not.

Are you having a slow day?

The post I made was what I was meaning when I said that the UN voted Israel into existence.

Resolution 181 was the UNs plan to divide the region into a Palestinian country and a Jewish country.

And yes, I know that Resolution 181 wasn't an actual act of: "we now create the country of Israel: PLING", like I said before (and you as well), I was using hyperbole.

 LordofHats wrote:
Hamas is a government? Lulz. Hamas is a bunch of madmen who just take everyone else along for the ride

Some education before posting please.

Hamas has been the legally elected government of the Palestinians since 2006.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
The BBC provided a picture of one of the "terrorists" killed in the airstrikes by those poor long suffering Israelis.

Well, I'm convinced. If the Israelis have killed children while targeting terrorists, clearly they're far worse than the guys who blow up buses full of civilians, pizza restaurants, ice cream parlors, grocery stores, houses, and so forth; at least those guys check to make sure there aren't any kids around first.

Right?

Actually governments are supposed to be better than the terrorists.
Civilian casualties in Gaza are massive.

You do realize that the missile batteries that have been attacking Israel the last few days were set up between a Mosque and a playground right?

Do you need me to connect the dots for you?

 sebster wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
I care feth all for Palestinians as a group. They are untrustworthy violent snakes.

It occurs to me that if we could ever get the bottom of finding out how people end up thinking nonsense like the above, then we'd have not only a solution to the problem of Israel and Palestine, but likely a solution to every humanitarian disaster caused by conflict.

But I suspect we'll never understand how a person could end up writing off a whole people.

I suspect very much that Auston, like myself have had many dealings with people of Muslim persuasion over in the Middle East. As a result of these experiences, as well as those of other people in more public venues have led to a fairly legitimate reason to see entire nations as untrustworthy, violent snakes. To me, it is not nonsense to think of them this way; They have done NOTHING to dissuade people from this notion.

 Testify wrote:

On the scale of the United States economy it's tiny. The USA gives $3 billion dollars a year. We both know that's nothing.

Horse gak. Thats $3.0BN that could go for college tuitions, better robes, or improved manga style robot armor suits. Its our money. feth them.

That only showed that you do NOT gak with Israel - the Israel gak you.
Seriously, after what Israel did in 1967 I would never go in war against them. Especially now when they have on of the most elite military and nukes.

sebster wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
I care feth all for Palestinians as a group. They are untrustworthy violent snakes.

It occurs to me that if we could ever get the bottom of finding out how people end up thinking nonsense like the above, then we'd have not only a solution to the problem of Israel and Palestine, but likely a solution to every humanitarian disaster caused by conflict.

But I suspect we'll never understand how a person could end up writing off a whole people.

It's a republic not a democracy.

PhantomViper wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

AustonT wrote:Roll back a little. Since the UN voted who into existence?

PhantomViper wrote: crickets

If you were hoping to just keep posting walls of unrelated text so I'd forget the question: I will not.

Are you having a slow day?

The post I made was what I was meaning when I said that the UN voted Israel into existence.

Resolution 181 was the UNs plan to divide the region into a Palestinian country and a Jewish country.

And yes, I know that Resolution 181 wasn't an actual act of: "we now create the country of Israel: PLING", like I said before (and you as well), I was using hyperbole.

The UN didn't vote Israel into existence anymore than they voted a Palestinian state or an international free zone around Jerusalem.
To say otherwise isn't hyperbole its just false.

djones520 wrote:
Some education before posting please.

Hamas has been the legally elected government of the Palestinians since 2006.

I'm just being silly. Hamas is crazy though. Of course they really don't act much like a government either but w/e. Palestinians get hosed either way.

Looks like things are hitting the fan fast over there. I'm guessing Israel's gonna invade again. Hamas is going to cry foul and beg the rest of the world to help the rest of the world will bicker over it for a couple weeks and then things will settle down until we do it all over again two years from now

 AustonT wrote:

The UN didn't vote Israel into existence anymore than they voted a Palestinian state or an international free zone around Jerusalem.
To say otherwise isn't hyperbole its just false.

My sincerest apologies, I had completely forgot your "UN haterz" stance and didn't frame my comments with that in mind...

So... Anyone else worried about the end of the world, then? :s

This cartoon in today's Times succinctly expressed my feelings on the matter:



I don't necessarily agree with Israel's often heavy-handed response to Arab aggression but nor do I buy into the sympathy vote for Palestine. Unfortunately, both sides come out of the whole thing looking rather shabby.

Israel called up over 30k reservist...

That's pretty telling...

Stole this from another site:
Take a couple of Israeli fighter jets capable of super sonic flight and have them buzz whatever passes for the Hamas HQ and Gaza business district at about 100 feet. Break some windows.

Then wait. If more rockets, repeat, just with lots more jets over the rest of Gaza.

Then wait. If more rockets, repeat, this time drop some bombs.

At some point, they are going to get the message.

 whembly wrote:
Israel called up over 30k reservist...

That's pretty telling...

Stole this from another site:
Take a couple of Israeli fighter jets capable of super sonic flight and have them buzz whatever passes for the Hamas HQ and Gaza business district at about 100 feet. Break some windows.

Then wait. If more rockets, repeat, just with lots more jets over the rest of Gaza.

Then wait. If more rockets, repeat, this time drop some bombs.

At some point, they are going to get the message.

Its way beyond that now.

 Frazzled wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Israel called up over 30k reservist...

That's pretty telling...

Stole this from another site:
Take a couple of Israeli fighter jets capable of super sonic flight and have them buzz whatever passes for the Hamas HQ and Gaza business district at about 100 feet. Break some windows.

Then wait. If more rockets, repeat, just with lots more jets over the rest of Gaza.

Then wait. If more rockets, repeat, this time drop some bombs.

At some point, they are going to get the message.

Its way beyond that now.

Is it past the point of no return?

Well you're using cold war style warning tactics in a situation where there is a hot war. Airplanes are flying all the time. I'd proffer the Hamas big wigs are in hiding since Israel got one of their heavies a few days ago.

As a human the whole area makes God sad.
As a Texan I just say, quit supporting anyone in the ME in any way and stay the heck out.

It seems likely to me that another ground war will happen in Gaza. It's likely past the point of no return for that.
If the Egyptian PM dies in Gaza then it's about to get real.

 Frazzled wrote:

As a Texan I just say, quit supporting anyone in the ME in any way and stay the heck out.

I would think that the Texan in you would say let's get to shootin' so we can get back to drinkin and muddin'

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

As a Texan I just say, quit supporting anyone in the ME in any way and stay the heck out.

I would think that the Texan in you would say let's get to shootin' so we can get back to drinkin and muddin'

I'd take that as a maxim.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/11/15/nr-life-in-gaza-strip-seshay-intv.cnn


Pretty chilling. A lot of respect for the Gaza resident;

"You can hear what's happening and I'm not going to comment on that. We need to get past 'Who's the victim and who's the victimizer'--we need to get that out of the way and get on with things."

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
"You can hear what's happening and I'm not going to comment on that. We need to get past 'Who's the victim and who's the victimizer'--we need to get that out of the way and get on with things."

]

Oh yes this. Who is this guy and how do we give him/her a medal?

Some food for thought
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4&feature=autoplay&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ&playnext=3

Israel's willing to destabilize Iran and work to help stop its Nuclear armament. Frankly I don't see the issue with them going out of their way to achieve this. If civilian casualties result in gross numbers then its Hamas' fault for sticking their missile sites in public areas in order to gain media sympathy. The western nations don't want Iran's government to have power, and yet its the in thing to critise Israel for going through the red tape. If Israel create set backs for Iran how many western leaders won't see this as a plus whilst in private? ^^

 Wyrmalla wrote:
If civilian casualties result in gross numbers then its Hamas' fault for sticking their missile sites in public areas in order to gain media sympathy. ^^

I'm sorry, no. While I agree that the firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas is reprehensible, horrid and above all pointless, you simply cannot expect a ragtag welfare armed force to sit in the middle of the desert while lobbing dumbfire s**twads which may as well be a giant IR crosshair. Israel has the capacity to accurately strike incredibly small targets even on the move, however a hellfire missile and other high tech ordnance cost a lot more than some shells being lobbed from Tel Aviv or some coastal warship.

Having the better toys and an incredibly well trained and armed "defense" force (not to mention air force) puts the onus on the Israelis in my eyes to be the bigger men and pony up for accurate strikes. I'm not expecting them to sit there and do nothing as Hamas rockets rain down on their cities but they have the capacity to prosecute this better, and I will give them credit for the accuracy of their initial strikes but they seem be looking more at the balance sheet and giving less of a f**k. No matter what, the narrative for any civilian Israeli forces kill seems to automatically be "collateral damage" while any casualty caused by an unguided munition launched by Hamas is a terrorist act, it's the oldest story in the book. When poor people wage war its terrorism and when rich people do it it's defense... it's getting old.

Calling Hamas’s bluff and firing on rocket launch sites and suspected munitions caches with increasingly hefty artillery isn't preventing Hamas from the continued use of this tactic and it only plays into their hands as the "martyrs" stack up, killing women and children with an artillery strike is a fantastic way to help Hamas replenish its losses. It's overkill and it's stupid. And in all honesty that seems to be Bibi's goal, surround them, starve them, radicalize every last atom of their being so as to play right into the narrative that somehow everyone in gaza is a terrorist. You kill enough of them, I assure you that will be the case before long.


Hamas certainly doesn’t think that if they lob enough rockets Israel will somehow disappear. They're doing this to elicit a response, its theater, and everyone’s watching. And sadly like all radical acts of violence, it plays right into the hands of the radicals on the other side of the conflict and they feed off of each other. Hamas wants this, Bibi wants this. And the world is sick of all their s**t.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
If civilian casualties result in gross numbers then its Hamas' fault for sticking their missile sites in public areas in order to gain media sympathy. ^^

I'm sorry, no. While I agree that the firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas is reprehensible, horrid and above all pointless, you simply cannot expect a ragtag welfare armed force to sit in the middle of the desert while lobbing dumbfire s**twads which may as well be a giant IR crosshair. Israel has the capacity to accurately strike incredibly small targets even on the move, however a hellfire missile and other high tech ordnance cost a lot more than some shells being lobbed from Tel Aviv or some coastal warship.

Having the better toys and an incredibly well trained and armed "defense" force (not to mention air force) puts the onus on the Israelis in my eyes to be the bigger men and pony up for accurate strikes. I'm not expecting them to sit there and do nothing as Hamas rockets rain down on their cities but they have the capacity to prosecute this better, and I will give them credit for the accuracy of their initial strikes but they seem be looking more at the balance sheet and giving less of a f**k. No matter what, the narrative for any civilian Israeli forces kill seems to automatically be "collateral damage" while any casualty caused by an unguided munition launched by Hamas is a terrorist act, it's the oldest story in the book. When poor people wage war its terrorism and when rich people do it it's defense... it's getting old.

Calling Hamas’s bluff and firing on rocket launch sites and suspected munitions caches with increasingly hefty artillery isn't preventing Hamas from the continued use of this tactic and it only plays into their hands as the "martyrs" stack up, killing women and children with an artillery strike is a fantastic way to help Hamas replenish its losses. It's overkill and it's stupid. And in all honesty that seems to be Bibi's goal, surround them, starve them, radicalize every last atom of their being so as to play right into the narrative that somehow everyone in gaza is a terrorist. You kill enough of them, I assure you that will be the case before long.


Hamas certainly doesn’t think that if they lob enough rockets Israel will somehow disappear. They're doing this to elicit a response, its theater, and everyone’s watching. And sadly like all radical acts of violence, it plays right into the hands of the radicals on the other side of the conflict and they feed off of each other. Hamas wants this, Bibi wants this. And the world is sick of all their s**t.

I'm sorry... but, just what do you expect Israel to do... take it in the teeth everytime? This is not a conventional war...

It reminds me of a phrase...

If the Hamas lays down their weapons... there will be peace...

If Israel lays down their weapons... there will be another holocaust.

Having the better toys and an incredibly well trained and armed "defense" force (not to mention air force) puts the onus on the Israelis in my eyes to be the bigger men and pony up for accurate strikes. I'm not expecting them to sit there and do nothing as Hamas rockets rain down on their cities but they have the capacity to prosecute this better, and I will give them credit for the accuracy of their initial strikes but they seem be looking more at the balance sheet and giving less of a f**k. No matter what, the narrative for any civilian Israeli forces kill seems to automatically be "collateral damage" while any casualty caused by an unguided munition launched by Hamas is a terrorist act, it's the oldest story in the book. When poor people wage war its terrorism and when rich people do it it's defense... it's getting old.

Damn...thanks for the laughs

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
If civilian casualties result in gross numbers then its Hamas' fault for sticking their missile sites in public areas in order to gain media sympathy. ^^

I'm sorry, no. While I agree that the firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas is reprehensible, horrid and above all pointless, you simply cannot expect a ragtag welfare armed force to sit in the middle of the desert while lobbing dumbfire s**twads which may as well be a giant IR crosshair. Israel has the capacity to accurately strike incredibly small targets even on the move, however a hellfire missile and other high tech ordnance cost a lot more than some shells being lobbed from Tel Aviv or some coastal warship.

Having the better toys and an incredibly well trained and armed "defense" force (not to mention air force) puts the onus on the Israelis in my eyes to be the bigger men and pony up for accurate strikes. I'm not expecting them to sit there and do nothing as Hamas rockets rain down on their cities but they have the capacity to prosecute this better, and I will give them credit for the accuracy of their initial strikes but they seem be looking more at the balance sheet and giving less of a f**k. No matter what, the narrative for any civilian Israeli forces kill seems to automatically be "collateral damage" while any casualty caused by an unguided munition launched by Hamas is a terrorist act, it's the oldest story in the book. When poor people wage war its terrorism and when rich people do it it's defense... it's getting old.

Calling Hamas’s bluff and firing on rocket launch sites and suspected munitions caches with increasingly hefty artillery isn't preventing Hamas from the continued use of this tactic and it only plays into their hands as the "martyrs" stack up, killing women and children with an artillery strike is a fantastic way to help Hamas replenish its losses. It's overkill and it's stupid. And in all honesty that seems to be Bibi's goal, surround them, starve them, radicalize every last atom of their being so as to play right into the narrative that somehow everyone in gaza is a terrorist. You kill enough of them, I assure you that will be the case before long.

Hamas certainly doesn’t think that if they lob enough rockets Israel will somehow disappear. They're doing this to elicit a response, its theater, and everyone’s watching. And sadly like all radical acts of violence, it plays right into the hands of the radicals on the other side of the conflict and they feed off of each other. Hamas wants this, Bibi wants this. And the world is sick of all their s**t.

Yeah, because its so easy to just take out a rocket site and not hit anything else! The technology, readiness and capability really is not there yet. If Israel had that capability they would use it, not just to win the PR war, but to scare the gak out of the terrorists.

Israel does not get a free pass and everyone knows it. Every action of they take is picked apart by the world media, they work pretty hard to keep collateral damage to minimum, but what you are asking is impossible.

I look at it this way, Israels live in fear most every day that today is the day that some random rocket comes and takes their lives away. Palestinians only seam to have to worry about rockets every once in a while when Israel gets fed up with the horsegak and throws some actual targeted smak down. Even that seams a little predictable, if you see or hear people launching rockets from your backyard maybe you might want to leave for a bit just in case there is some retaliation. Just saying.

This is a great video on how counter battery fire ACTUALLY works. In normal circumstances you get a general location, and drop a spread of shells across the whole area. The Israeli counter battery efforts to take out Hamas rocket sites are pretty clearly more restrained then that because Gaza still exists.

People have to be pretty naive to think that any sort of military action isn't going to cause a disparate amount of civilian casualties.

Ever think that's why Hamas likes to operate in areas like that? Every civilian death is a PR win for them.

The Palestinian press can't wait to parade dead children in front of the cameras so Israel can be made to look bad, when its Hamas that hides behind the human shields of their own children.
GG

 Frazzled wrote:

 Testify wrote:

On the scale of the United States economy it's tiny. The USA gives $3 billion dollars a year. We both know that's nothing.

Horse gak. Thats $3.0BN that could go for college tuitions, better robes, or improved manga style robot armor suits. Its our money. feth them.

fyi, the military aid is invested back into the U.S. arms industry, which employees hundreds of thousands of Americans and is facing a crisis given the world economic slump, which has caused many buyers and nations to cut back their deals (but not Israel). Netherlands, Italy, Canada, and UK are all questioning the F-35, vital to Lockheed's business, for instance, but not Israel because it was purchased with military aid. This is why U.S. businesses are supportive of military aid to Israel: money given by the government goes to Israel then back into an American business which is experiencing cutbacks.

It's not like economic aid to other countries (such as Egypt) where it simply is thrown at their economy.

And even if it wasn't invested back into U.S. industries, it's indeed a minuscule amount. Moreover the Arab Spring has demonstrated all of your allies in the region are doomed to eventually implode. You think Saudi Arabia won't fall to Islamists? That's what they said about Egypt. The exception here of course is Israel. The time will come when they'll be your only friend in this vital region.

Anyway, I also have this to offer:

 Harriticus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Testify wrote:

On the scale of the United States economy it's tiny. The USA gives $3 billion dollars a year. We both know that's nothing.

Horse gak. Thats $3.0BN that could go for college tuitions, better robes, or improved manga style robot armor suits. Its our money. feth them.

fyi, the military aid is invested back into the U.S. arms industry, which employees hundreds of thousands of Americans and is facing a crisis given the world economic slump, which has caused many buyers and nations to cut back their deals (but not Israel). Netherlands, Italy, Canada, and UK are all questioning the F-35, vital to Lockheed's business, for instance, but not Israel because it was purchased with military aid. This is why U.S. businesses are supportive of military aid to Israel: money given by the government goes to Israel then back into an American business which is experiencing cutbacks.

It's not like economic aid to other countries (such as Egypt) where it simply is thrown at their economy.

And even if it wasn't invested back into U.S. industries, it's indeed a minuscule amount. Moreover the Arab Spring has demonstrated all of your allies in the region are doomed to eventually implode. You think Saudi Arabia won't fall to Islamists? That's what they said about Egypt. The exception here of course is Israel. The time will come when they'll be your only friend in this vital region.

Anyway, I also have this to offer:

Its a miracle!! Land of the holy and all