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The Israelis are not screwing around this time. I'd suggest it's because they've been feeling very externally pressured, especially with the specter of nuclear Iran outside their borders, it's really time to clean house at "home" so to speak so that if the external bad guys decide it's time to play hard ball again, they don't have to deal with Hamas screwing around and murdering civilians in the background. Two front wars, especially when one front is a mass conventional and potentially nuclear battle front and the other is a full on Urban/COIN hell hole is not a good time.

Edit: here's a helpful infographic from the IDF PA office that I found floating around on Facebook on what the IDF is doing to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible.



Roof knockers sound like a rather trouser soiling experience.

Roof Knockers actually sounds a lot like a roof top burlesque.

 AustonT wrote:
Roof Knockers actually sounds a lot like a roof top burlesque.

Sounds like a rooftop/open air "gentlemen's club". And a good time to be sure.

 AustonT wrote:
Roof Knockers actually sounds a lot like a roof top burlesque.

They play big band music?

That's fething amazing.

Edit: Oh. Oh. I see where I made my mistake.

Looks like a cease-fire is imminent

 Huffy wrote:
Looks like a cease-fire is imminent

Not likely... it's escalating still...

Spoiler'ed 'cuz of disturbing image... this is what they're dealing with:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Israelis are not screwing around this time. I'd suggest it's because they've been feeling very externally pressured, especially with the specter of nuclear Iran outside their borders, it's really time to clean house at "home" so to speak so that if the external bad guys decide it's time to play hard ball again, they don't have to deal with Hamas screwing around and murdering civilians in the background. Two front wars, especially when one front is a mass conventional and potentially nuclear battle front and the other is a full on Urban/COIN hell hole is not a good time.

Edit: here's a helpful infographic from the IDF PA office that I found floating around on Facebook on what the IDF is doing to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible.



Roof knockers sound like a rather trouser soiling experience.

That would be a fair comparison if Hamas had the same resources as Israel in this war. They don't so they engage in asymmetrical warfare.

I'd buy that if their primary target was the Israeli military and government as opposed to purely civilian targets.

So, you think Hamas have the same resources as Israel?

Right, they can only afford to aim their rockets in the general direction of Isralis.

Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

'asymmetrical warfare' /=/ 'indiscriminate attacks'

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

Please point out where I have praised Hamas.

Find it, and point it out.

I said cheerleading one side over the other is wrong.

Hamas are not in the right. Neither is Israel. The whole damn situation is a big barrel of wrong.

The other comparison is a fallacious argument. Hamas are not comparable to Al Qaeda (not an international terror group motivated purely by ideology), the PIRA (More directly comparable to the old IRA who were fighting to force recognition of the civil rights issues for catholics and what they saw as British "occupation" of the North. Broadly. In simple terms.) or Timothy McVeigh (one lunatic). They are a violent extremist group, but they have recognisable motivations. Similarly, the Israelis motivations are understandable.

Da Boss wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

Please point out where I have praised Hamas.

Find it, and point it out.

I said cheerleading one side over the other is wrong.

Hamas are not in the right. Neither is Israel. The whole damn situation is a big barrel of wrong.

The other comparison is a fallacious argument.

See... I don't understand this argument...

So... the Hamas fires Rockets at Israel... what do you think Israel should do?

Israel continues to blockade, continues to expand into Palestinian territory illegally, bulldozing settlements.

What do you expect Hamas to do?


Edit: As to what Israel should do, well, I hesitate to suggest solutions because I know the limits of my own knowledge and competence. But at the moment, the way out seems to be either a real peace process, with concessions for both sides, or genocide. Personally, I think anyone who thinks genocide is an option is as close to evil as I'll admit exists, so I'd favour more efforts from both sides towards peace negotiations. Hamas have a responsibility to track down and disavow and incarcerate the extremists who break ranks and fire rockets. Israel has a responsibility to halt expansion, stop the blockade, and possibly give back some of the land it has stolen.

Da Boss wrote:
Israel continues to blockade, continues to expand into Palestinian territory illegally, bulldozing settlements.

What do you expect Hamas to do?

You're thinking the Israel blockade's and expand into territories in a vacuum.

Israel is the bully... amirite?

No I am not, jesus. What gives you that idea?
I am thinking Israel does what it does for defence. I am also thinking that it is not working, because guess what, bomb people as much as you like, take as much of their land as you like, but as long as there are any angry young men left in their culture, they're gonna fight back.

Scrabb wrote:'asymmetrical warfare' /=/ 'indiscriminate attacks'

In his defense I'm pretty sure he's Irish.

Also, it fething pisses me off that just because I don't wholeheartedly support Israel, I must be a Hamas supporting antisemite. for feth's sake, there's more shades of grey in the world than that. My first serious girlfriend was Israeli, I'm well acquainted with the Israeli point of view and the concerns they have.

Edit: yeah, I am Irish, and I DO NOT support the IRA or Sinn Féin, FYI. But I think maybe being from a small, powerless country gives one some insight into the mindset that can lead to these sorts of actions.

Da Boss wrote:


I am Irish, and I DO NOT support the IRA or Sinn Féin, FYI. But I think maybe being from a small, powerless country gives one some insight into the mindset that can lead to these sorts of actions.

Its mostly a joke, but all after FYI makes plenty of sense.
For future reference "asymmetric warfare" cannot even generously be applied to randomly lobbing rockets at civilians.

Da Boss wrote:
Also, it fething pisses me off that just because I don't wholeheartedly support Israel, I must be a Hamas supporting antisemite. for feth's sake, there's more shades of grey in the world than that. My first serious girlfriend was Israeli, I'm well acquainted with the Israeli point of view and the concerns they have.

Edit: yeah, I am Irish, and I DO NOT support the IRA or Sinn Féin, FYI. But I think maybe being from a small, powerless country gives one some insight into the mindset that can lead to these sorts of actions.

Chill man (I really miss my avatar ). I understand.

But, at some point, the past grievances/reasons doesn't matter. What matters is the present and right now it's ugly.

Da Boss wrote:
Israel continues to blockade, continues to expand into Palestinian territory illegally, bulldozing settlements.

What do you expect Hamas to do?

I could care less about Hamas.

In honesty if I was a Palestinian I'd just let Israel take over. Palestinians inside Israel lead much better lives than the ones living outside the walls. The people of Palestine have to wake up and realize that they are just Pawns in a game. Palestinians living in Israel get treated better than Palestinians living in most of the "Palestinian friendly" countries.

Unfortunately, you can say "past grievances don't matter" til you're blue in the face, but people never listen.

I'm sorry for getting so angry. I dunno why, but this argument makes my blood boil faster than nearly any other.

 Andrew1975 wrote:


In honesty if I was a Palestinian I'd just let Israel take over. Palestinians inside Israel lead much better lives than the ones living outside the walls.

No gak.

Da Boss wrote:
Unfortunately, you can say "past grievances don't matter" til you're blue in the face, but people never listen.

You are so right about that... which is why one side needs to put it aside and "deal with it". Meaning... forget the past, either diplomatically resolve it, or go to war and finish it.

I'm sorry for getting so angry. I dunno why, but this argument makes my blood boil faster than nearly any other.

No problem dude... your point does stand in that there are no angels in this situation. I think that if diplomacy don't work... all that's left is Darwinism.

Not sure what to make of that? Are you making fun of the statement or questioning its validity?

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Not sure what to make of that? Are you making fun of the statement or questioning its validity?

Erm... what?

 whembly wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Not sure what to make of that? Are you making fun of the statement or questioning its validity?

Erm... what?

I was replying to Austin.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Not sure what to make of that? Are you making fun of the statement or questioning its validity?

Erm... what?

I was replying to Austin.

Oh... sorry...

I don't speak for him, but I think he was agreeing with ya.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

A different solution would be for Israel to respond by bombing every the general area of a suspected site with 1000 tons worth of cluster bombs.

The sad thing is I and Palestinian descendant were able to come up with a workable solution in about 15 minutes over lunch. For an encore we're going to look at the Somalia situation tomorrow.
*1967 borders. Yea its narrow. Israel has nukes now. It can deal.
*Gaza and WB are independent countries. Israel can put up 100foot wide barriers on its side, but G and WB controlled their own borders, just like any other country.
*land bridge in similar fashion to the Berlin bridge - aka train wide section. Israel could put up a 100 fout wide barrier all along if it wanted.
*Gaza gets water access-standard 12 mile limit.
*No overflights or patrols by either side into either's territory.

Attacks after that would be considered acts of war by a foreing nation.