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 whembly wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Not sure what to make of that? Are you making fun of the statement or questioning its validity?

Erm... what?

I was replying to Austin.

Oh... sorry...

I don't speak for him, but I think he was agreeing with ya.

I get it. There are some people that are still under the impression that Israels treat other people poorly inside their borders. They actually treat them pretty well, better than I would have expected honestly, and better than they get treated by their "Arab brothers". It seams such a waste. Think of what those territories would be like if the money was spent on improving the land and economy instead of blowing it all up. I mean if I were a Palestinian I would be praying for Israel to move in.

 Frazzled wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

A different solution would be for Israel to respond by bombing every the general area of a suspected site with 1000 tons worth of cluster bombs.

Well if they followed standard counter battery procedure they'd be leveling about a city block around each launch site with artillery.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

A different solution would be for Israel to respond by bombing every the general area of a suspected site with 1000 tons worth of cluster bombs.

Well if they followed standard counter battery procedure they'd be leveling about a city block around each launch site with artillery.

Um... then, what would be left?

 whembly wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

A different solution would be for Israel to respond by bombing every the general area of a suspected site with 1000 tons worth of cluster bombs.

Well if they followed standard counter battery procedure they'd be leveling about a city block around each launch site with artillery.

Um... then, what would be left?

Thats the point?

 whembly wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

A different solution would be for Israel to respond by bombing every the general area of a suspected site with 1000 tons worth of cluster bombs.

Well if they followed standard counter battery procedure they'd be leveling about a city block around each launch site with artillery.

Um... then, what would be left?

There wasn't much to start with.

Depends on the type of counter battery. I do know they have M109 Paladins. 155mm has a kill radius of 150m. A battery is eight tubes so it'll be more then a block. So we're looking at HE shell with the fuze set to point or delay.

 Frazzled wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Clearly not, but you seem to be condemning Israel for it's collateral damage, while praising Hamas for committing murder. At least Israel is trying to only kill bad guys. The PIRA, Al-Qaeda and Timothy freakin McVeigh didn't or don't have gak in the way of resources either. I suppose their murders are justified as well?

A different solution would be for Israel to respond by bombing every the general area of a suspected site with 1000 tons worth of cluster bombs.

The sad thing is I and Palestinian descendant were able to come up with a workable solution in about 15 minutes over lunch. For an encore we're going to look at the Somalia situation tomorrow.
*1967 borders. Yea its narrow. Israel has nukes now. It can deal.
*Gaza and WB are independent countries. Israel can put up 100foot wide barriers on its side, but G and WB controlled their own borders, just like any other country.
*land bridge in similar fashion to the Berlin bridge - aka train wide section. Israel could put up a 100 fout wide barrier all along if it wanted.
*Gaza gets water access-standard 12 mile limit.
*No overflights or patrols by either side into either's territory.

Attacks after that would be considered acts of war by a foreing nation.

Frazzled:bringing some semblance of peace in our time

Israel is advertising on the sides of our city buses


just saying


yep, this is for real on our city buses in Portland Oregon

It's not actually israel paying for it, it's a US based interest group

 DIDM wrote:
Israel is advertising on the sides of our city buses


just saying


yep, this is for real on our city buses in Portland Oregon

I thought that the ad was in bad taste, usual Pam Geller Islamophobia stuff, until I read one of speeches by the Hamas Prime Minister, let alone the hate filled drivel on their state TV stations 24/7.
Nice article on it: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/11/19/words_are_weapons_of_mass_destruction

Whoa... just read that Hilary Clinton is heading into the region... (to do what... I have no idea).

We should send Bill too.

whembly wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Not sure what to make of that? Are you making fun of the statement or questioning its validity?

Erm... what?

I was replying to Austin.

Oh... sorry...

I don't speak for him, but I think he was agreeing with ya.

Yeah this.

 Frazzled wrote:
There are three options:
*do nothing. Hamas and Hezzbullah will continue to kill Jews.
*continued counter attacks. This gives Hamas power. As Iran's puppet Israel becomes more tightly bound between Hezzbullah and Hamas. There is no political interest in Hamas and the other radicals to not fire rockets.
*go Biblical. I see this as a growing threat that one side or the other is going to attempt to wipe out the other side to end it.

Yet the easy peaceful solution is there, but the guys who stay in power from the killing have the power to stop it.

That's all just nonsense, and doesn't describe the situation at all.

The plain and simple fact is that Israel isn't 'doing nothing'. It continues to settle land past the borders it agreed to. If sporadic missile fire was really such an unacceptable risk then the first thing it'd stop doing is taking land. And after that it'd ease up on quarantine restrictions, allowing livestock and building materials in to give the people some chance of building an economy that isn't dependant on offering cheap labour to Israel.

It doesn't do that, of course, because there are powerful vested interests in Israeli society that want to continue to expand Israel's borders, and who make a lot of money out of controlling the flow of aid into Gaza and the West Bank, and who make a lot of money out of the cheap labour provided.


And meanwhile people jump on the internet to talk about how Hamas are motivated out of some comic book type evil to just want Israel dead. It's absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zathras wrote:
Israel rying to make peace with Hamas is impossible.....you can't have peace when the other side has it in their charter a declaration for your destruction as a nation and a people.

For the last five years Hamas has policed the region, not firing rockets and preventing other armed groups from firing rockets as best it could. They did this in exchange for funds to continue to maintain hospitals and public utilities. This idea of Hamas as an organisation utterly dedicated to the destruction of Israel just makes no fething sense when you look at their actions.

I fething wish people would just fething read about what's actually going on before jumping on the internet and announcing their oh so savvy political opinions to the world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'd buy that if their primary target was the Israeli military and government as opposed to purely civilian targets.

All of which would be completely relevant if the situation consisted of;

1) Everything is peaceful and good.
2) Holy gak, rockets, how did that happen.

But those rockets didn't just happen out of nowhere, for no other reason than Hamas and the other armed groups are pure evil.

Israel is happy to maintain crippling quarantines on the occupied territories and continue to expand their border with new settlements. Then they cry bloody murder when people respond to the hardship inflicted on them.

I don't believe for one second that firing rockets is acceptable, but the plain and simple truth is that rockets and other forms of desperate retaliation (bombs and suicide bombers) will continue until Israel lets the occupied territories become nations in their own right, with the capabilty to build an economy capable of supporting itself.

I mean, faced with the conditions forced on the people of Palestine, who wouldn't retaliate however they could?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
See... I don't understand this argument...

So... the Hamas fires Rockets at Israel... what do you think Israel should do?

Well, as I've pointed out several times in this thread... Hamas actually policed the region, fired no rockets of its own, and prevented other armed groups from firing rockets (mostly, a few were still launched). This relationship worked up until the point where Israel decided Hamas wasn't stopping enough rockets, and killed the Hamas leader responsible for this arrangement. gak has since hit the fan. The elections in Israel and Gaza, and the vote before the UN to recognise Gaza as a non-member state were likely influencing factors.


And yeah, when rockets are fired, I'd expect and understand Israel doing exactly what they're doing. But when you live in an (unofficially) occupied zone, under incredibly strict permanent quarantine, and with Israel advancing over the borders they agreed to to settle more of your land, and where living conditions are only barely survivable because people work as incredibly cheap labour in Israel and through foreign aid... what do you think the Palestinians are going to do but launch rockets?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
You're thinking the Israel blockade's and expand into territories in a vacuum.

Yes, that is in a vacuum. They can stop those actions at any time they want.

Note the quarantine isn't only on goods that can be used in weapons. They're on livestock, building supplies, and basic items that are quarantined for the express purpose of preventing the Palestinians from building a functioning economy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:
Also, it fething pisses me off that just because I don't wholeheartedly support Israel, I must be a Hamas supporting antisemite. for feth's sake, there's more shades of grey in the world than that. My first serious girlfriend was Israeli, I'm well acquainted with the Israeli point of view and the concerns they have.

Edit: yeah, I am Irish, and I DO NOT support the IRA or Sinn Féin, FYI. But I think maybe being from a small, powerless country gives one some insight into the mindset that can lead to these sorts of actions.

I love that someone can call Palestinians treacherous snakes, and no-one bats an eye lid. But you can point out that Hamas and the Palestinians are acting in response to genuine issues and you must be, as you say, a Hamas supporting anti-semite.


It reminds of one the other times this was debated, and Fraz freaked the feth out because he thought someone was suggesting that the only solution was to force the Israelis to leave. I pointed out that the person had actually said the only solution was the forced removal of the Palestinians... at which point there was silence. Somehow that wasn't even worthy of a mention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Chill man (I really miss my avatar ). I understand.

But, at some point, the past grievances/reasons doesn't matter. What matters is the present and right now it's ugly.

The settling of land and the extreme quarantine are present grievances. How do you not get that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
In honesty if I was a Palestinian I'd just let Israel take over. Palestinians inside Israel lead much better lives than the ones living outside the walls. The people of Palestine have to wake up and realize that they are just Pawns in a game. Palestinians living in Israel get treated better than Palestinians living in most of the "Palestinian friendly" countries.

Israel doesn't want to occupy the region while there's Palestinians living in it. They would end up a minority in their own country, a new movement to give Palestinian people the vote would be inevitable, and the whole thing would become near identical to the situation in Israel's old friend and ally South Africa.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
The sad thing is I and Palestinian descendant were able to come up with a workable solution in about 15 minutes over lunch. For an encore we're going to look at the Somalia situation tomorrow.
*1967 borders. Yea its narrow. Israel has nukes now. It can deal.
*Gaza and WB are independent countries. Israel can put up 100foot wide barriers on its side, but G and WB controlled their own borders, just like any other country.
*land bridge in similar fashion to the Berlin bridge - aka train wide section. Israel could put up a 100 fout wide barrier all along if it wanted.
*Gaza gets water access-standard 12 mile limit.
*No overflights or patrols by either side into either's territory.

Attacks after that would be considered acts of war by a foreing nation.

What's most telling about that is that it is way less than Palestine is asking for now. Wikileaks showed diplomatic cables in which Hamas was willing to accept the present day borders, with existing settlements. Israel rejected it out of hand.


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 youbedead wrote:
It's not actually israel paying for it, it's a US based interest group

Pro-Israel groups in the US are so much worse than the most extreme of groups in Israel itself.

Okay seb... I'll bite.

Explain to me why Israel is settling the lands and maintaining the extreme quarantine?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
You're thinking the Israel blockade's and expand into territories in a vacuum.

Yes, that is in a vacuum. They can stop those actions at any time they want.

Note the quarantine isn't only on goods that can be used in weapons. They're on livestock, building supplies, and basic items that are quarantined for the express purpose of preventing the Palestinians from building a functioning economy.

And if they stop those actions, would the rockets/terrorist activites stop?

 whembly wrote:
Explain to me why Israel is settling the lands and maintaining the extreme quarantine?

The reasons are complex, and most certainly not representative of Israel as a whole. One major reason is that, simply put, there is a lot of money in it for the right people. Cheap labour for certain industries in Israel. Lots of cash to be made with the provision of humanitarian supplies, from approved providers. It's interesting to note the close connections that exist between many of these businesses and politically powerful generals in the IDF.

The settlements, on the other hand, are basically the result of religious and cultural convictions.

And if they stop those actions, would the rockets/terrorist activites stop?

And there's the complicating factor. Because there was a genuine effort at some measure of reconciliation, when Israel left the security zone in Lebanon in 2000. Which Hezbollah then launched rockets from, leading to an eventual ground invasion from Israel... which more or less killed the political debate for reconciliation elsewhere within Israel. An understandable reaction, but unfortunately one taken advantage of by the more aggressive parties within Israel.

But, despite the poor response that time, a proper two state solution, with a viable Palestine as an independant state remains the only plausible solution. It won't stop all the violence straight away, but it is the only solution long term that can stop the violence. And it is a solution that, at this point, only Israel can move towards.

Okay seb... I agree with everything you said there... and it's a very astute academic observation.

I believe... and this is whembly shoot gak out of his ass... that a very basic human reaction/emotion is driving here...

Injustice via short-term memory.

I don't think the Palestinian/Israelis are reacting to the injustices with that same perspective you've just expoused. There are immediate injustices going on on both sides:

a) Gaza is under heave embargos on basic stuff... land is view being stolen from Israel

b) Terrorist in Gaza are waging Terrorist acts and lobbing rockets at Israel

I'm sure there are numerous accounts on both sides.

So, either both sides tries to resolve this diplomatically and humanely...
-or-
All out war needs to happen where there is only the victors and conquered/annihilated people.

Otherwise... what we're seeing now will continue to happen till kingdom come.

@seb Yeah especially since many of the most ardent Pro-Israel groups are just fundamentalists that want Israel to prevail and exist just so that it can be wiped out later, it's beyond stupid. It also kind of sucks that if you're a Jew the it's expected that throw your full hearted support behind Israel

It's a nice theory Sebster, but to be honest I don't ever see the attacks on Israel stopping. There are too many people that want them gone. There is always going to be someone launching rockets at them or attacking them in some way, there are too many people interested in keeping this fight going for it to stop that easily. There are many reasons this conflict has gone on for so long and it has little to do with settlements. Its just and excuse and when that excuse is gone they will just find another one.

That being said, Yes Israel should stop the settlements, just to prove the point.

And yeah, when rockets are fired, I'd expect and understand Israel doing exactly what they're doing. But when you live in an (unofficially) occupied zone, under incredibly strict permanent quarantine, and with Israel advancing over the borders they agreed to to settle more of your land, and where living conditions are only barely survivable because people work as incredibly cheap labour in Israel and through foreign aid... what do you think the Palestinians are going to do but launch rockets?

And the cycle starts again.
Why are we quarantined?
Because you shoot rockets at us!
That makes me angry I'm gonna shoot rockets at you!

I love that someone can call Palestinians treacherous snakes, and no-one bats an eye lid. But you can point out that Hamas and the Palestinians are acting in response to genuine issues and you must be, as you say, a Hamas supporting anti-semite.

But that is also the issue. Both sides seam to be acting in response to genuine issues. Nobody bats an eye about that because we have all seen in the past where leaders of these groups call Israelis much worse things than treacherous snakes. We have all seen leaders of these islamic/middle east/ arab (take your pick as to which name you prefer) countries call for the outright destruction of Israel. Which is where this comes into play.

And meanwhile people jump on the internet to talk about how Hamas are motivated out of some comic book type evil to just want Israel dead. It's absurd.

Because to most people it seams very likely. Look around at what references exist out there as far as anti Israel leaders go. You don't get much more comic book than Ahmadinejad. Yes he's not Hamas but in many ways he represents the anti Israel hatemongers.

Your obviously well informed on the situation, but I think you downplay how much people really do hate Israel, for no other reason than that it exists. I think Israel could do everything right and it wouldn't change much. That's how hate works, its not really all that rational after awhile. I think that is what it boils down to. If they don't hate your religion it's your skin tone, if not skin tone, hair color, if not hair color, politics, none of it matters because they hate you because you are not them... and they do hate.

So for the sake of argument, lets say Israel pulls back the settlements, and ends the blockade. What then? You know it won't stop the violence completely or instantly. So now that Israel has made the concessions how long is a reasonable amount of time to sit back, not retaliate and expect things to change? 6 months a year, 2 years? Does Israel wait until the territories become actual nations? Where is the upside in that? It just means Israel will have a harder time dealing with them when the gak eventually hits the fan...and it will.

I think your asking for a lot of good faith and risk on Israels part, which is something that few of their neighbors seam to be willing to extend to them.

 Jihadin wrote:
Depends on the type of counter battery. I do know they have M109 Paladins. 155mm has a kill radius of 150m. A battery is eight tubes so it'll be more then a block. So we're looking at HE shell with the fuze set to point or delay.

No no that won't do at all. I want bigger booms. Anybody have a zeppelin we can use?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Whoa... just read that Hilary Clinton is heading into the region... (to do what... I have no idea).

We should send Bill too.

I'm sure everyone feels safer now. Hillary's on the way!

Lets just declare the whole area of the west bank a shooting gallery. Everyone wins.

(*end sarcasm*

With Iran to the north, and allegedly smuggling rockets. Syria has shelled part of Israel, no wonder the prime minister feels backed into a corner. There's one of the most unstable countries in the world at his doorstep, one of the most unpredictable nuclear powers next door, and israels getting bombed the ***** out every few hours or so.

It's not just every couple of days a rocket gets fired, you are talking every few minutes. And most aren't reported now because its either intercepted, or falls on *dead ground*.

Hamas needs to either tighten the **** up on it's security, or israel to invade and finish the job it started 3 years ago.

Here's something...

Could it be that there's "more than meets the eye" with this situation?

I think Iran is flexing it's muscle by saying... hey, we can get you from even your own back yard (the gaza).

 whembly wrote:
Here's something...

Could it be that there's "more than meets the eye" with this situation?

I think Iran is flexing it's muscle by saying... hey, we can get you from even your own back yard (the gaza).

Yep.

So much for that attempted cease fire

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/blast-hits-tel-aviv-bus-at-least-21-hurt-police-chasing-two-terror-suspects-1.479535

An explosion hit a bus in central Tel Aviv on Wednesday, wounding at least 21 people. One of the casualties was in serious condition, one sustained light-to-moderate injuries, and the rest were lightly wounded.

Police opened an immediate manhunt for two suspected terrorists.

The explosion occurred at the corner of Shaul Hamelech and Henrietta Szold Streets just after noon. A suspect was arrested about half an hour after the explosion, but was quickly released from custody.

Passersby were ordered to keep their distance from the scene. Security alert was raised to level 4 in the area surrounding the Kirya, Israel's national defense compound. The municipality ordered schools to keep pupils indoors for nearly two hours after the attack.

To be fair Hamas did not claim responsibility tor the attack, but they will be catching the flak for it clearly.

 Doctadeth wrote:
israel to invade and finish the job it started 3 years ago.

Not quite a simple task, for one it may turn into another 2006 Lebanon...they don't know how beefed up Hamas has gotten, they may have ATGMs and MANPADs from Libya/Syria/Iran etc. and there's no certainty of destroying all the weapon caches without an occupation that would be rejected by everyone.
It's also political suicide considering the Israeli elections are coming up, not to mention the adverse effects it would have on international relations.

Whembs, Hilary is over in Cairo trying to help the Egyptians broker a cease-fire/prevent a ground invasion

 Huffy wrote:

 Doctadeth wrote:
israel to invade and finish the job it started 3 years ago.

Not quite a simple task, for one it may turn into another 2006 Lebanon...they don't know how beefed up Hamas has gotten, they may have ATGMs and MANPADs from Libya/Syria/Iran etc. and there's no certainty of destroying all the weapon caches without an occupation that would be rejected by everyone.
It's also political suicide considering the Israeli elections are coming up, not to mention the adverse effects it would have on international relations.

Whembs, Hilary is over in Cairo trying to help the Egyptians broker a cease-fire/prevent a ground invasion

Ah... makes sense since I think the US can't directly negotiate with the Hamas...

 Huffy wrote:

 Doctadeth wrote:
israel to invade and finish the job it started 3 years ago.

Not quite a simple task, for one it may turn into another 2006 Lebanon...they don't know how beefed up Hamas has gotten, they may have ATGMs and MANPADs from Libya/Syria/Iran etc. and there's no certainty of destroying all the weapon caches without an occupation that would be rejected by everyone.
It's also political suicide considering the Israeli elections are coming up, not to mention the adverse effects it would have on international relations.

Whembs, Hilary is over in Cairo trying to help the Egyptians broker a cease-fire/prevent a ground invasion

Carpet bombing?

Hamas is down with blowing up the bus:

"Hamas blesses the attack in Tel Aviv and sees it as a natural response to the Israeli massacres...in Gaza," he told Reuters. "Palestinian factions will resort to all means in order to protect our Palestinian civilians in the absence of a world effort to stop the Israeli aggression."

 whembly wrote:

And if they stop those actions, would the rockets/terrorist activites stop?

Sebs can dance around it and call it complicated as much as he wants. As long as Hamas is in power the answer is an emphatic "No"

Hamas Charter wrote:[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.(abbr HAMAS)

Lets also not forget that Hamas has publically opposed Palestinan statehood. You know because it would force them to recognize Israel's existence.
In other words it's not complicated at all.

Dude, you really need to stop assuming that just because you got shocked when you pressed the button the last 39 times, you'll get shocked when you press the button this time. That's absurd. There's no evidence of that, despite the overwhelming evidence.

It's complicated, man.

Cease-Fire has been announced
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20436699

 Huffy wrote:
Cease-Fire has been announced
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20436699

Mr Netanyahu accepted Mr Obama's "suggestion to give a chance to Egypt's proposal for a ceasefire and so give an opportunity to stabilise the situation and calm it before there will be need to apply greater force".

Think Egypt can craft a solution that both sides would agree with...

This won't last long...