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Pretty simple way to limit SPAM, whether it be long fang spam, helturkey spam, or dreadknight spam.
Limit any codex choice to 2, instead of 3 normally due to Force Org charts
Troops and things that become troops would be exempt
It would be 2 choices per detachment, so at 2000 points you could take 2 detachments and have 4 of a particular unit.

This would probably really hurt all the older codexes, where "spamming" a particular unit is one of very few viable builds.

You mean to say I can only have 2 Wave Serpents before 2000pts?

... No. I do not enjoy this.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
This would probably really hurt all the older codexes, where "spamming" a particular unit is one of very few viable builds.

You mean to say I can only have 2 Wave Serpents before 2000pts?

... No. I do not enjoy this.

Iranna.

dedicated transports wouldnt count either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iranna wrote:
This would probably really hurt all the older codexes, where "spamming" a particular unit is one of very few viable builds.

.

but only 2 squads of fire dragons

I'm not sure its very practical but as a more mild discouragement, I'm thinking a unit point tax. If you bring 2 of a non-troop unit their cost goes up 10%, if you bring 3 the cost goes up 20%.

 Iranna wrote:
This would probably really hurt all the older codexes, where "spamming" a particular unit is one of very few viable builds.

This. Any kind of restriction like this is harder on the codexes that are already weak. Strong codexes would just move to other strong choices. Weak codexes have no where to go.

Some units, like vindicators, need to be spammed to work well, so this would kill them.

Iranna wrote:
This would probably really hurt all the older codexes, where "spamming" a particular unit is one of very few viable builds.


This. Any kind of restriction like this is harder on the codexes that are already weak. Strong codexes would just move to other strong choices. Weak codexes have no where to go.

The problem is that spamming the best units is especially painful when it comes to the "shiny" recent Codexes ... aka Long Fangs, GK Dreads, Flying Pastries ...
And you don't need to spam the "best" units to be efficient with older codixes. True you need to use them with some redundancy, but taking 2 of each of the less worse choices is usually more than enough, especially if you're fielding a balanced list that can tackle more or less every kind of threats (problem against fliers of course ...)

So no more than 2 Troops for Black Templars ever?


I swear, this has to be the seventh time I've seen this suggestion, and no one EVER thinks it through.

It's pretty much a terrible idea, if you play casual games, then you can agree with your opponents to not use spammy lists, if you play tournaments, then barring comp rules both you and your opponent should be bringing the killiest list they can, in some cases that is spammy, in many cases it isn't so much.

Also, if troops and dedicated transports are excluded from your restriction, then DE venom spam, guard chimera spam(does anyone do that anymore anyway?) and SM razorspam wouldn't be stopped anyway. I don't see these lists as a problem, but if you do this solution wouldn't work for them at all.

The thing with the elite and HS options is that while they tend to be good, they also tend to be expensive and are pretty useless without the rest of the army backing them anyway. SW Long Fang spam is great, but without the support units, usually more spammed razors, they are relatively limited firepower imo. You don't see many triple DK lists in general. Hellturkeys are cool and all, quite powerful too but I have yet to see them dominate a game completely. I just think the problem is pretty moot.

At the same time it kills things like Tau, preventing them from doing a battlesuit army, which is sorta their best build.

 Panopticon wrote:


At the same time it kills things like Tau, preventing them from doing a battlesuit army, which is sorta their best build.

Tau would be a good example, yes. No spamming Broadsides or Suits? There goes their only chance of doing well. Meanwhile, the SM flavors spam razors with no restrictions.

With your idea I can still bring 6 leman Russ tanks and 6 vendettas in a standard game , congrats you hamstrung everyone but Guard

Yeah, this is kind of silly and stupid.

Not every army has the bewildering amount of variety that the Imperial Guard codex has. Sometimes units are spammed because that's about all we have that works.

Other times, units are spammed because it's thematic (Orks and Tyranids for example).

 Melissia wrote:
So you're saying I can only ever have two troops choice units using a WD Sisters army?

That is a severe disadvantage. This idea is very unbalanced.

He did say troops and DT are fine. Of course, this means SM can spam razors, DE can spam venoms, even Nids can spam Tervigons with no consequences.

Meanwhile Sisters can only have two exorcists, cutting down their ranged anti-tank by a third. Hm.

And yet, using these rules, I could still play nine leman russ tanks and nine vendettas/valkyries in the game.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
With your idea I can still bring 6 leman Russ tanks and 6 vendettas in a standard game , congrats you hamstrung everyone but Guard

That would make for a terrible army. Vendettas suck in squadrons, leman russes are not really good anyways and even worse in squadrons, so if you want to spam them, go ahead.

I think it would work out well if GW switched to a %-system like fantasy with limits on the same units within slots (probably 2 per elite/fast/heavy). It would encourage the use of a wider assortment of units. Most armies have one slot that is too crowded, which means that some options are just never used. As an example. look at IG fast attack. Lots of good options, but because the vendetta outshines the rest, you never get to take them.

 Illumini wrote:
leman russes are not really good

What kind of weird, messed up bizarro-game are you playing?

Leman Russes rock.

The frak ? Leman Russ are arguably the he's Tank in the game , and I've taken 9 vendettas and actually tabled every enemy I faced , it's not that bad It just has to be used correctly like Stormtroopers and Ogryn

Russes are slow, they are expensive (overpriced) and they have lost the ability to fire ordnance and sponsons, so they have lost quite a lot of firepower. Sure, they are nearly indestructible from afar when parked behind an aegis, but they die easily to close combat, meltas etc. Their firepower is bad pts for pts compared to the other heavy support choices. Squadrons simply add to these issues, making them more suspectible to close combat/meltas and giving you less and less firepower for your pts.

The demolisher is the only one I would consider good, but even that is not great in a squadron.

Vendettas suck in squadrons because:
1: They must fire at the same target (overkill)
2: More pts stuck in reserve
3: The models are huge, a squadron of three takes up a HUGE chunk of the table. Manouvering that giant blob of plastic around with flyer rules will hurt your damage potential

Vendettas = Undercosted mobile powerhouses

Vendettas = win

Vendettas + More Vendettas = fail?

Not really seeing the logic on that one.

And Leman Russ maybe a bit costly but I don't see them as bad. The main weapon is something that can't really be ignored on the table.

3x1 vendetta = win. Anything above that is getting less and less out of your investment. 3 single vendettas are much much better than a squadron of three. Once your start having to add squadrons, those pts could probably be spent better elsewhere in your list.

 Illumini wrote:
Russes are slow, they are expensive (overpriced) and they have lost the ability to fire ordnance and sponsons, so they have lost quite a lot of firepower. Sure, they are nearly indestructible from afar when parked behind an aegis, but they die easily to close combat, meltas etc. Their firepower is bad pts for pts compared to the other heavy support choices. Squadrons simply add to these issues, making them more suspectible to close combat/meltas and giving you less and less firepower for your pts.

The demolisher is the only one I would consider good, but even that is not great in a squadron.

Vendettas suck in squadrons because:
1: They must fire at the same target (overkill)
2: More pts stuck in reserve
3: The models are huge, a squadron of three takes up a HUGE chunk of the table. Manouvering that giant blob of plastic around with flyer rules will hurt your damage potential

Leman Russ's for 150 points base are possibly the BEST heavy support . I haven ever had one battle were a Leman Russ makes back its points (205 with the way i run them ) and a Strength 8 AP3 Template with the Ordiance special rule ? yeah spacemarines die in droves . And who in the F*** does not have somthing supporting their tanks ? there is something called an infantry escort which makes your Melta assualt crap pointless , a Chimera wall around them is nearly as effective . Name your Heavy support and ill tell you why the Leman Russ is better

at a 2k point level for 1,070 points i can being 9 Vendettas , Guess what i can throw infantry platoons in behind an Ageis and i have almost 100 models camping out before they arrive , When they come on , They WILL kill 3 Targets , target priority is the biggest part in that

IMO the best way to get rid of spam lists is to do away with the current FOG.

And replace them with a simple 'tree type'.

Eg HQ allows:-
2 to 6 common units,
For every 2 common units a specialised unit can be taken.
For every 2 specialised units a restricted unit can be taken

What units are classed as varies from army to army.This allows units to be classed by rarety NOT function which is more intuitive.(and allows easier and stronger theeming.)

OR simply limit unit chioces to 0-1 or 0-2 as apropriate in the codexes.

BUt GW plc will NEVER put restrictions on chioce to improve the limited game ballance.As it goes against thier core directive of ' selling toy soldiers to children'.

I don't think spam lists are the problem, the problem is OP units that end up getting spammed because they are OP.

I don't have a problem with someone wanting an air Calvary list with elite troops. But there should be a drawback to everything. What is the drawback to a flyer? There is none, really. They aren't priced badly and have way too good of firepower. Veterans aren't that OP in my opinion, but could probably cost a bit extra.

Things shouldn't be made to limit what people can bring, but the game should balance out so that everything has a decent counter. Skyfire was supposed to be the flier counter, but it hasn't become profitable to release it for different armies.

You might want to consider in playing a different game? Players that complains about armies using spammy list, or I dont want play against them are poor sport. Man what is going on with players these days?......GW should start producing Kleenex for all those players that are crying.

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
You might want to consider in playing a different game? Players that complains about armies using spammy list, or I dont want play against them are poor sport. Man what is going on with players these days?......GW should start producing Kleenex for all those players that are crying.

And bringing Vendetta and vet spam against a codex that's 5+ years and 2 editions out of date is sporting? If you have nothing constructive to say, then kindly keep quiet. This thread is discussing a way to try and balance a biased system. If you don't like modifying the game, then why even come to proposed rules?

Not every fluffy force is a varied and balanced animal. I like lists to have a look and feel.

For epuc balanced rules play warmachine or something. there are lots of good balanced war games out there. if you want to play space marines or guard face the fact that you are playing a gw game. nicer models not as epic rules or epic rules and not as epic models.
My thoughts are if you are complaining about the rules either switch games. change your gaming group or switch to an op army. as a side note maybe get better at warhammer?
The other day someone had mon marines walking up through no cover at 7 ml and 3 lsc lf and they were pissed that th marines were dead turn 2. So if you have no idea what you are doing then don't complain.

You should learn something from a loss and that's how you get better.

Lr are still really good even in squadrons.

I don't see a point in running 9 vendettas or valks unless its a tournament. Most people at that point would pack up since how can you stop 9 unless you are crons or ig or have ig allies. I wouldnt be playing against that in a friendly game.

This is bad.
Some of the best "spam" builds are built of troops and transports (see neucrons)

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
You might want to consider in playing a different game? Players that complains about armies using spammy list, or I dont want play against them are poor sport. Man what is going on with players these days?......GW should start producing Kleenex for all those players that are crying.

And bringing Vendetta and vet spam against a codex that's 5+ years and 2 editions out of date is sporting? If you have nothing constructive to say, then kindly keep quiet. This thread is discussing a way to try and balance a biased system. If you don't like modifying the game, then why even come to proposed rules?

I did posted my rules and tried to bring balance to the system.....switch to a different game or get another codex or buy some FW model to help you out