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 Kroothawk wrote:
Raise entry costs + lower support -> more profit for shareholders this year and maybe next!

there is no raised entry cost. i see it as cheap compared to how it used to be.

back in the mid-late 90s (when i was a kid starting out) if you wanted assault marines they came in a blister pack of i think it was 1 model for 9-11 bucks? (they counted the marine and the jump pack as a seperate minis)

if you wanted death company they came in a box of 10, all metal for 50 bucks. jump packs not included, they were sold in blister packs of three for 9 bucks, do the math.

you were forced to build squads from metal blister packs, 2 models per blister for 10 bucks. same for fantasy, bretonnia men at arms came 2 per blister, there was no plastics for most stuff. have fun building a huge block of infantry at those prices. 65 dollar metal dragon anyone?

i think you get my point. nowadays i could buy an awesome space marine army online for 300 bucks. the models come with OPTIONS, and the models are generally SO much better.

the hobby only gets expensive if you want like 5000+ points with tons of forgeworld.

yeah I started just after that sort of stuff was going away, things were still pricy but it was easier in some ways to make an army
infantry boxes were $32 (on average, sometimes a little less)
codexes were 20, 15 for the marine little ones (30 for the 3.5 chaos one)
i remember jump packs were sold in these weird bags, command was always separate from the metal boxes
and the starter set came with a full sized rule book, and the whole thing was 120 (i never bought it lol)
most terrain was home made, I think GW had a few things, mostly trees, every store's terrain looked vastly different, and I liked that
oh how times change...

it was kind of horrible. a single metal infantry block in fantasy could run you 100-200 dollars.

i dont understand all this price whining. these kids are spoiled nowadays lol.

yes, the hobbit is a rip off. dont buy it. move on.

Whenever i see threads like this i am thankful i only live 20 mins drive away from Warhammer World.

I have only played a couple of games in my local GW store (Derby). last i checked though they still do a games night every Thursday with 3 or 4 games tables out.

on normal days though i think they just have 2 demo tables and a painting station.



On the issue pf price, some things are better now. I had a necron army before the new 'dex came out. Back then you could only get Immortals in blisters at £6 each. So the current price for a set of 5 is actualyl pretty good when you factor in the time and effort you save with not havign to work with metal.

kb305 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Raise entry costs + lower support -> more profit for shareholders this year and maybe next!

there is no raised entry cost. i see it as cheap compared to how it used to be.
back in the mid-late 90s (when i was a kid starting out) if you wanted assault marines they came in a blister pack of i think it was 1 model for 9-11 bucks? (they counted the marine and the jump pack as a seperate minis)
if you wanted death company they came in a box of 10, all metal for 50 bucks. jump packs not included, they were sold in blister packs of three for 9 bucks, do the math.
you were forced to build squads from metal blister packs, 2 models per blister for 10 bucks. same for fantasy, bretonnia men at arms came 2 per blister, there was no plastics for most stuff. have fun building a huge block of infantry at those prices. 65 dollar metal dragon anyone?
i think you get my point. nowadays i could buy an awesome space marine army online for 300 bucks. the models come with OPTIONS, and the models are generally SO much better.
the hobby only gets expensive if you want like 5000+ points with tons of forgeworld.

I wasn't playing that long ago: when I started, most core units were plastic already. I started in 2000. But looking at the 2004 catalog on Stuff Of Legends a pack of 3 special models (High Elf Swordmasters) were about $9, a box of 10 was $35. I remember this being an increase over the previous year when you had to guy them in sets of 3 only (now $35 for 10 instead of $36 for 12). And now they are $66 for 10, in finecast. Multiply that by 3 if you want a unit that is worth putting on the table. This is for models made in 1997.

There may have been a time when all the most common units were in metal and the change to plastic made it cheaper... but in the 13 years I've been playing, everything has gooten almost uniformly more expensive.

Especially real 'entry level' products. Codex, Rulebook, Battleforce.. have all gotten more expensive. The codex in 2004 was $20, now its $33, and soon to be $50. Its better quality, sure; but its getting to be like Ferraris: no matter how much better it is than my Lancer, it doesn't matter because its out of the price range. $50 for a rulebook is beyond what other companies are asking for the same thing.

true. Luckily both of my armies and the main rulebook hasve been updated in the last few months, so hopefully i am set for rulebooks for at least 3 years.


until the next IA book comes out with Necrons......

Local GW doesn't have veterans night anymore. Good for our newish club though!

You would think that with more people in the store playing, it would make it more likely they would buy something. Newcomers get to see games in action, and speak with the gamers there.

Let's get back to topic though aka GW's current policy of alienating actual gamers

From a marketing point of view, I am pretty torn in between whether it's a good idea or not.

On the one hand

Uhm. Wait, it actually, is as pretty dumb idea. The only advantage I can see or have seen in this thread is the relatively close proximity to GW's customers. If you're right next to a store and just want to get one box or something similar, you are more likely to quickly jump in and buy it.

a) The thing is that people will be a lot more likely to actually buy stuff at GW if they also play there. It's how our mind works. Reciprocal thinking. If one person does you a favor, you feel obligated to return that favor. Works in marketing too, all those guys trying to give you "gifts" use this exact mechanism...you got something, you feel like giving something back. Wham. You go to a GW store and play, you feel like giving something back. Buy a new box of miniatures, a new character model...anything.

b) You are just strolling through the city and pass a GW store. The current 1-man stores now offer the awesome sight of 2 people sitting on a table, painting stuff. Exciting, I know.

Imagine 2x2 people actually playing - moving their miniatures across the battlefield, raising fists, wild gestures...imagine seeing people actually having fun.

What would suck you more in?

c) What is the point of GW stores now, proximity argument left aside?

Want to know what you army might be missing? Ask on dakkadakka, warseer.com etc. and get 100x better advice than any GW employee might give you. Ye know, the same employee that counceled me to buy a few boxes of FO because "they'd smash terminator squads". Really.

Not sure on what army to start? Ask the internet.

Want to make a sizeable order? Online stores offer savings up to 30%.

While GW is well-known for knowing nothing about marketing, the development still makes me wonder what they're up to. GW pretty much shows what an effective monopoly can do.

On the other hand, I don't blame them. They seem to make a good profit and thus most customers appear to agree with their decisions - regarding the votes with their wallets because those matter, opinions just bounce off GW's thick skin.

The sad thing is that I'd be fine with even starting another army. I really like GW's work. Most models look really well and the rules are good too despite some short fallings, but in a WAAC-free environment, they work just fine. The huge and disproportional price increases along with the terrible customer policy, however, keep me from doing so. Maybe, in a few years, if I am still interested in tabletops, GW might have changed and I'll gladly go for another army. But as of now, I got my 1850 tournament Necron army. Not more, not less. And until then, GW gets 0$ from me...not because I boycot them. Just because I don't need to get more.

For alot of people a GW is the only way to get games in, personally I like that I can go down spend some money and work on a couple things while I wait to get a game in. The best part is that I can do this anytime I have free time and nearly get a game in nearly 100% of the time. I own a table but getting the boyz together isnt always possible.

GW dont seem to understand themselves, the mall stores were for recruiting and training noobs and the vets were directed towards bunkers. When they switched to desination 1 man stores they didnt lower their recruitment expectations and got pissy how they became "club houses".
All evidence Ive experienced from both working in a comic shop and for GW is that a good group of regulars is what keeps you afloat, because as long as they are happy they spend money, tell them they cant play or paint anymore and subject them to constant harassment is only going to embitter them and make them want to find other places to go. As it turns out some people dont have that option and just turn to simpler and less taxing games like MTG and Videogames.

They dont know who they are selling to anymore, the recruiter stores were obviously pointed at kids but now with no foot traffic and no reason to go in what the hell is the point of going?

Y'know, I have to say something. The club vibe can be very scary for many people. I was scared of going to 40k night for the longest time because everyone there knew everyone. Same when i started RPGs. They are right to tone down the vibe to let other people in.

There is a difference between "tone down" and nuke. If you dont have a place to play, you dont play. People shouldnt struggle to get a game in, basically this is GW unknowingly cutting into the amount a person can actually game, any day of the week I could go to a GW store and probably get a game in with a huge variety of people, now they are telling me that I schedule meetings and arrange game nights with the same couple people and do that much more work in order to enjoy the game. If I have to wait so goddamn long between games I have no reason to support or buy minis from a GW store.

 Ravenous D wrote:
There is a difference between "tone down" and nuke. If you dont have a place to play, you dont play. People shouldnt struggle to get a game in, basically this is GW unknowly cutting into the amount a person can actually game, any day of the week I could go to a GW store and probably get a game in with a huge variety of people, now they are telling me that I schedule meetings and arrange game nights with the same couple people and do that much more work in order to enjoy the game. If I have to wait so goddamn long between games I have no reason to support or buy minis from a GW store.

Good point. It all boils down to "Buy where you play" and if GW wants us to play at home...well...do the math!

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
There is a difference between "tone down" and nuke. If you dont have a place to play, you dont play. People shouldnt struggle to get a game in, basically this is GW unknowly cutting into the amount a person can actually game, any day of the week I could go to a GW store and probably get a game in with a huge variety of people, now they are telling me that I schedule meetings and arrange game nights with the same couple people and do that much more work in order to enjoy the game. If I have to wait so goddamn long between games I have no reason to support or buy minis from a GW store.

Good point. It all boils down to "Buy where you play" and if GW wants us to play at home...well...do the math!

Yep, I used to buy a bunch at my local GW despite the stupid prices because I was there and it was there and I am weak like that. Since the local GW became a closet where you can only get a <1500 game on a 4x4 table I barely get down there and instead buy from the FLGS which I get down to much more often (because full sized tables are nice) or from ebay.

kb305 wrote:
if you wanted death company they came in a box of 10, all metal for 50 bucks.

As opposed to the Death Company who are now available at the bargain price of $55 per five man box?

GW was the only way to get games in for me as they pretty much killed off most independant stores here. Now that the store has been reduced down to one man and there is a booking system in place for tables at vets night, I don't see much point going down there anymore... the store looks empty most of the time.

 d-usa wrote:
The new GW in our city only has 2 tables and is pretty crammed. It is a small store in a strip mall with just enough wall space to place all their merch.

GW's are really not "game stores", they are stores that sell a game.

Pretty much it. The very first time my friends got me to buy some 40K and get me into the hobby we went to a GW store. Good lord...How to say this:

You should have seen the look on the guy face when he realised all 4 of us where total news in the hobby, in to buy our very first stuff.
We ended up buying our stuff. What we had in mind before entering the store. If we had listened to the seller, instead of 500 pts forces, we would have ended with 1500 pts + a white dwarf each, our codexs, primer, green stuff. As soon as we paid, nothing. As if we didnt existed. He vanished in his backstore with a cold goodbye.

We never entered a GW store since that day. Avoiding them like the plague. And now your telling me these ''gaming stores'' are getting into mini stores? There's no hope... Seriously, who's going to buy in a GW store when almost any store will get you at least 5% off GW prices + a place to play + getting in touch with people who actually like the hobby and dont try to sell you any crap they can? And I dont even speak of ebay and online stores....

Mini new stores? I say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE! Please stop this folly.

I personally don't find the downsizing a problem as the closest gw store to me is at least 200miles away and that is a 3 and a half hour car trip.

The argument of playing at your house or at your opponents house IMHO is kinda BS as Everyone I know that plays is at least 50miles away from me. Plus the game gets stale and unfun very fast if you play the same army vs army each week.

I support the FLGS when I am there and can but it is also 50-60 miles away. So basically I don't usually buy anything from GW unless I really feel like supporting my store otherwise I will get it cheaper on the internet. I mean it's kinda sad when I can buy 60 models for the price of 20 on the internet. So what if I have to wait a week for my models to get here, I don't think it will kill me to not be able to get the model right there on the spot for the huge difference.

 Ravenous D wrote:
it turns out some people dont have that option and just turn to simpler and less taxing games like MTG and Videogames.

I wouldn't describe Mtg as 'simpler and less taxing' than Warhammer at all. It's very different and games are a lot shorter, but a night of gaming is fairly intensive. It actually requires quite a lot of thought both on deck building and playing the game. It's not top trumps and its not like a computer game. It also helps a lot to have a venue to play with a large pool of gamers, because it quickly gets repetitive if you're playing with the same tiny group if people. Wargames are often played successfully within a small pool of players.

Though I do find it odd to see someone describing people leaving Warhammer to go to less taxing games, when I first started on rogue trader and 2nd edition. I already see current Warhammer as being a lot less of a challenge aside from the practicality of having much larger numbers of figures people have to field. How would these gamers have managed 20 years ago?

 Kaldor wrote:

kb305 wrote:
if you wanted death company they came in a box of 10, all metal for 50 bucks.

As opposed to the Death Company who are now available at the bargain price of $55 per five man box?

And I thought it was only americans that thought there was only one curency...

In the UK gaming in store is not the norm at all, which is odd given that we have some of the smallest house sizes in the world. Much smaller than the US and anywhere in the EU.

baxta182 wrote:
Games workshop newcastle has closed its upstairs gaming area saying they cant supervise it and the shop at the same time

I also remember hearing that you can only play for an hour on the tables downstairs as well...

Someone made a FB page as well about the topic that was cool to see...

Glad I play at my FLGS at seaham now...

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
I personally don't find the downsizing a problem as the closest gw store to me is at least 200miles away and that is a 3 and a half hour car trip.

The argument of playing at your house or at your opponents house IMHO is kinda BS as Everyone I know that plays is at least 50miles away from me. Plus the game gets stale and unfun very fast if you play the same army vs army each week.

I support the FLGS when I am there and can but it is also 50-60 miles away. So basically I don't usually buy anything from GW unless I really feel like supporting my store otherwise I will get it cheaper on the internet. I mean it's kinda sad when I can buy 60 models for the price of 20 on the internet. So what if I have to wait a week for my models to get here, I don't think it will kill me to not be able to get the model right there on the spot for the huge difference.

So how many games do you get in a month?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
it turns out some people dont have that option and just turn to simpler and less taxing games like MTG and Videogames.

I wouldn't describe Mtg as 'simpler and less taxing' than Warhammer at all. It's very different and games are a lot shorter, but a night of gaming is fairly intensive. It actually requires quite a lot of thought both on deck building and playing the game. It's not top trumps and its not like a computer game. It also helps a lot to have a venue to play with a large pool of gamers, because it quickly gets repetitive if you're playing with the same tiny group if people. Wargames are often played successfully within a small pool of players.

Though I do find it odd to see someone describing people leaving Warhammer to go to less taxing games, when I first started on rogue trader and 2nd edition. I already see current Warhammer as being a lot less of a challenge aside from the practicality of having much larger numbers of figures people have to field. How would these gamers have managed 20 years ago?

Less taxing in the sense that I dont need to put in 100 hours of labour in to build a deck, not to mention that MTG cards are actually worth something.

To be honest, I don't know why GW has its own stores anyway. Indies offer much greater service at the same price. I host painting classes at the local store just because I love the game. We've made several new players just by playing and letting them look at the game as it is being played. Made several MTG players swap games The only bad local shops are the ones that have closed because the owners were just not very nice. Most of the help at the local store are volunteers, and they work great. They genuinely love the games at the store and are always more than happy to show new players the ropes, as well as the local players being more than happy to help people get started playing.

Seeing this topic again is odd - I was just grabbing something from my local GW (not my usual place to buy anything, but I was given a gift certificate for Christmas exactly covering a box of Black Knights), and they mentioned a new store I already saw opening in the same area. They're moving out of the expensive mall, and onto the main street.

Going from a closet to a battle bunker. So I'll assume this isn't a worldwide, all bunkers going to closets trend, since my local is doing the exact opposite.

However, I have to say it's utterly hilarious. They're moving into walking distance of my FLGS. Which has about 5x the gaming space (in fact, a dedicated gaming hall) than the bunker will have. They stock a great range of GW products at a discount, as well as PP, Corvus Belli, Battlefront, Spartan Games, Mantic as well as 'boutique' ranges like Maxmini, Iron Halo, MAS, AoW, Raging Heroes etc. It has a dedicated group of while not anti-GW, pro err... 'choice'? gamers who play aa huge array of games. The owner is really good at encouraging and supporting tournaments, leagues and huge group games.

It's going to be interesting seeing what happens. Since it's walking distance, I'm going to bet my FLGS picks up GW customers rather than GW picking up my FLGS's customers, if only because they will get it cheaper than GW.

 -Loki- wrote:
Seeing this topic again is odd - I was just grabbing something from my local GW (not my usual place to buy anything, but I was given a gift certificate for Christmas exactly covering a box of Black Knights), and they mentioned a new store I already saw opening in the same area. They're moving out of the expensive mall, and onto the main street.

Going from a closet to a battle bunker. So I'll assume this isn't a worldwide, all bunkers going to closets trend, since my local is doing the exact opposite.

However, I have to say it's utterly hilarious. They're moving into walking distance of my FLGS. .

One of the GW stores in my home town is right on the opposite of the street. I mean, really. You can look at the other guys playing if you look out of the window.

 Sigvatr wrote:

One of the GW stores in my home town is right on the opposite of the street. I mean, really. You can look at the other guys playing if you look out of the window.

And I know of a Home Depot that shares a parking lot with a Lowes, just a Pet Smart between them... They both seem to do decent business somehow.

 -Loki- wrote:


It's going to be interesting seeing what happens. Since it's walking distance, I'm going to bet my FLGS picks up GW customers rather than GW picking up my FLGS's customers, if only because they will get it cheaper than GW.

Or the GW recruits new players into the hobby, sells them starter sets and teaches them how to paint and play- then in 6-12 months they move to the LGS to buy and play.
Which is pretty much the way GW want it to work...

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
I personally don't find the downsizing a problem as the closest gw store to me is at least 200miles away and that is a 3 and a half hour car trip.

The argument of playing at your house or at your opponents house IMHO is kinda BS as Everyone I know that plays is at least 50miles away from me. Plus the game gets stale and unfun very fast if you play the same army vs army each week.

I support the FLGS when I am there and can but it is also 50-60 miles away. So basically I don't usually buy anything from GW unless I really feel like supporting my store otherwise I will get it cheaper on the internet. I mean it's kinda sad when I can buy 60 models for the price of 20 on the internet. So what if I have to wait a week for my models to get here, I don't think it will kill me to not be able to get the model right there on the spot for the huge difference.

So how many games do you get in a month?

I used to be able to get at least a game a week on game night but the group has declined in members due to the growing dislike for GW
In the last 6 months I have gotten in about 7 games and 6 of those being 2 tournaments.