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 Peregrine wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:
I agree in a way, but that's not even close to all that I had. I had 40 grey hunters, 20 mounted up, and 30 scouts, and 30 Fenrisian wolves. Hardly one dimensional. I didn't put that earlier though. All I know is, one of our friends is VERY unbiased, and has played for a long time, and he said it was BS before the game even began. I Think Carnage is right in that, no one is at fault, we should just do all-comers lists for a change.

If you didn't have a one-dimensional list then why weren't you able to react to his night fighting by closing in and killing him at shorter range? Why weren't you able to use the searchlights on your grey hunter transports to light up targets for your long fangs? Why weren't you able to throw the wolves at him and start wiping units off the table? Either:

1) You had a one-dimensional list and/or plan that only consisted of "sit back and shoot", and once you encountered something that interfered with that strategy you had no ability to adapt.

or

2) It wasn't really that one-sided a game, you weren't unable to shoot for 80% of it, and you're complaining about the fact that some of your units were reduced in effectiveness while the rest of them engaged the enemy.

So which is it?

I'm amused at your pigeonhole style choices, I'm going with 3) He threw everything but the kitchen sink at those aforementioned units to get them out of the picture, and then cut the lights on and off.

This had nothing with adaptability, lets say I did this, Spammed rhinos, full of grey hunters, he would just strand my men (bringing lots of vehicles against crons is suicide) and then turn the lights out,

so my reasonable number of long fangs in this mock case, two squads, for a well rounded list, would have AGAIN been unable to do anything. Last game, I would have moved my grey hunters up with their transports,

but didn't want A) them to be less mobile, if I just sent in the rhinos, or B) get shot to hell when they got blown up. Which they would have. only like 8+ rhinos would have worked, and I'm not bringing

that many just to have searchlights. I'll concede this much. It was a hard counter on his part, well played definitely, but he KNEW I was going to have to stand around all night long, for 3 or so hours,

doing nothing. That's one of my biggest gripes, he did this just to win. Now, If I had taken 25 thunderwolves, you'd be on his side right now, blasting me for being cheesey, and don't say you wouldn't.

And it wouldn't be about his inability to adapt at all. I admit, I'm pissed about the way the game turned out. But not because I lost (my favorite game was the one I lost to him, an awesome slug match)

but because of it being a monumental waste of my time. He once said, and I quote "if you ever do jaws spam, I think I'd just shake your hand and say GG dude, if you wan't to win this bad, then GG".

But then pulls this out of his ass. I can tell your getting heated here as well, relax, and stop trying to paint me as something I'm not please, I'm simply relaying the story as it happened.

bobamus87 wrote:
I'm amused at your pigeonhole style choices, I'm going with 3) He threw everything but the kitchen sink at those aforementioned units to get them out of the picture, and then cut the lights on and off.

And why, knowing you were facing a Necron player with the ability to bring night fighting at will AND playing in 6th edition where more than half the games involve night fighting, didn't you consider the possibility that you could be facing night fighting and prepare appropriately?

This had nothing with adaptability, lets say I did this, Spammed rhinos, full of grey hunters, he would just strand my men (bringing lots of vehicles against crons is suicide) and then turn the lights out,

What if, what if, what if. The simple fact is that Necron night fighting is not an unbeatable list. You just weren't prepared to face it with a static gunline list, and you won't ever be prepared to face it if you assume that moving up is suicide.

but he KNEW I was going to have to stand around all night long, for 3 or so hours, doing nothing

How exactly did he know that you would have no ability to get within 36" (pretty amusing given that deployment zones are only 24" apart)? Are you really that predictable in your exclusive list of static gunline armies?

Now, If I had taken 25 thunderwolves, you'd be on his side right now, blasting me for being cheesey, and don't say you wouldn't.

I'll say I wouldn't because it's true. There are very, very few lists that I consider "cheesy", and thunderwolf spam isn't one of them (it's not really even a good list).

 Peregrine wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:
I'm amused at your pigeonhole style choices, I'm going with 3) He threw everything but the kitchen sink at those aforementioned units to get them out of the picture, and then cut the lights on and off.

And why, knowing you were facing a Necron player with the ability to bring night fighting at will AND playing in 6th edition where more than half the games involve night fighting, didn't you consider the possibility that you could be facing night fighting and prepare appropriately?

This had nothing with adaptability, lets say I did this, Spammed rhinos, full of grey hunters, he would just strand my men (bringing lots of vehicles against crons is suicide) and then turn the lights out,

What if, what if, what if. The simple fact is that Necron night fighting is not an unbeatable list. You just weren't prepared to face it with a static gunline list, and you won't ever be prepared to face it if you assume that moving up is suicide.

but he KNEW I was going to have to stand around all night long, for 3 or so hours, doing nothing

How exactly did he know that you would have no ability to get within 36" (pretty amusing given that deployment zones are only 24" apart)? Are you really that predictable in your exclusive list of static gunline armies?

Now, If I had taken 25 thunderwolves, you'd be on his side right now, blasting me for being cheesey, and don't say you wouldn't.

I'll say I wouldn't because it's true. There are very, very few lists that I consider "cheesy", and thunderwolf spam isn't one of them (it's not really even a good list).

There's a great many that would disagree, but as far as predictability, in a way, yes, My lists for him sometimes are, I hate proxying, and he has on numerous occasions

asked that I not bring proxy pods in decent number, or I would in this situation, and I'm not paying a boatload for pods I'd really only use against him, so in a way, he knew

that I wasn't going to walk/drive down his 24" woodchipper necron maw, and elect to do the only real feasible option available, and make abundant use of long fangs, to

make a frontal assault possible. At any rate, if he and I play again, I'm saying either open proxying so I can do pods, or we do all comer lists. I would have loved to do a

ton of bikes, but again, then we get into the 40k arms race, and as I said before. I would rather not proxy, so against Crons, answering your question, with the models

I have, I am somewhat limited in what sneaky stuff I can do, and hence predictable. Also, preparing appropriately for night fighting hasn't been a problem, until that game.

Deployment favored his plan and I paid for it. If I get stationed here, I'm getting DE, so I can ignore Night fighting all together, and have the ball more in my court in ranged

exchanges. Your points are valid nonetheless on some of this. Perhaps I just placed too much blame on him, out of spite, and frustration for an evening of getting stomped,

and maybe should have just anticipated the hard counter like any good tactician should, instead of assuming I could do the same thing twice. Maybe I've been looking at it all wrong after all. Thanks for your insight.

While I appreciate your support Peregrine. I think the point of this thread has been over looked. The game was certainly not the best I've ever played, but thats not why I posted here. I wanted to know if what people thought what I did was cheesy?

I'm pleased to see the majority thinks not. When I think cheese, I think an army list that wipes opponents clear off the board. The "cheese" thing that I did allowed me to kill 9 Longfangs and a single Wolf Guard Battle Leader with 20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns. I just don't see how that could ever be called "cheese".

Your list was not cheesy... Your opponent decided before the game that he was going to play a static gunline and rather than switching his tactics and adapting to the scenario turn 1, he remained stubborn and got beat down hard.

Rather than whining about your list and putting you down by saying he could have stomped you if he wanted to, he should have thought about his own gameplay and why his list and tactics were not good enough to beat you.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
While I appreciate your support Peregrine. I think the point of this thread has been over looked. The game was certainly not the best I've ever played, but thats not why I posted here. I wanted to know if what people thought what I did was cheesy?

I'm pleased to see the majority thinks not. When I think cheese, I think an army list that wipes opponents clear off the board. The "cheese" thing that I did allowed me to kill 9 Longfangs and a single Wolf Guard Battle Leader with 20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns. I just don't see how that could ever be called "cheese".

thats the thing though. had he not have been inside a building there is a good chance that this list would have carved chunks out of his force. I would say that this list is cheesy. the words "20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns" kinda gives this away all the while not being able to shoot you back. like I said I have no problem with cheese but....damn I want to fight this list now :'3

Wouldn't call it cheesy. You both should probably play all-comers lists though and not try to rock-paper-scissor each other so much.

 DPBellathrom wrote:
thats the thing though. had he not have been inside a building there is a good chance that this list would have carved chunks out of his force. I would say that this list is cheesy. the words "20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns" kinda gives this away all the while not being able to shoot you back. like I said I have no problem with cheese but....damn I want to fight this list now :'3

20 blast templates over four turns isn't really that much. That's only five per turn, and any IG player can easily get that many (and better shots too).

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
While I appreciate your support Peregrine. I think the point of this thread has been over looked. The game was certainly not the best I've ever played, but thats not why I posted here. I wanted to know if what people thought what I did was cheesy?

I'm pleased to see the majority thinks not. When I think cheese, I think an army list that wipes opponents clear off the board. The "cheese" thing that I did allowed me to kill 9 Longfangs and a single Wolf Guard Battle Leader with 20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns. I just don't see how that could ever be called "cheese".

What you did was list tailoring. In this situation, it's not cheesy, it's just the result of two people playing each other for a long time and knowing each others lists. As someone said earlier, this situation mostly ends the same. You end up list tailoring against each other to the point where the game is rock/paper/scissors. Eventually, one or both of you will get annoyed enough to leave, and he looks like he's heading there.

If you want advice on how to proceed without pissing each other off and quitting the hobby entirely - take a step back from the competitiveness, and start again. Maybe play an escalation league together, gradually increasing points costs. Anything to break away from the uber competitiveness, because it's obviously doing your hobby harm. I'd even go as far as to suggest playing a different game for a while.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:
thats the thing though. had he not have been inside a building there is a good chance that this list would have carved chunks out of his force. I would say that this list is cheesy. the words "20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns" kinda gives this away all the while not being able to shoot you back. like I said I have no problem with cheese but....damn I want to fight this list now :'3

20 blast templates over four turns isn't really that much. That's only five per turn, and any IG player can easily get that many (and better shots too).

however guard dont have controlled night fighting for that amount of time

There is no such thing as cheese. You can play competitively, fluffy or somewhere in between. Bringing one extreme vs the other can often be considered bad form unless of course both players discuss beforehand and agree.

What happened in this situation was simple tailoring. It's a common happenstance when players get accustomed to facing only each other and know exactly what the other person is going to bring. In this (and many other) cases it can lead to resentment.

A suggestion I would make is not to tailor to a particular player, but to your local meta. It's a much more challenging prospect and forces you to build a decent allcomers provided your local group doesn't all run exactly the same thing. It makes you a better general, you learn exactly how your army runs, what it is capable of and what you will struggle with. In these situations a thorough understanding of your list will help minimize any weaknesses but what is also great is that a true allcomers will also not have a hard counter...It should be able to take on pretty much anything out there and stand a chance of winning.

Best of luck to both of you.

Bobamus87, I'd worry less about 40k and more about your choice to go into the miltary. You should really consider a different avenue of life than jumping into an oppressive meatgrinder that doesn't care for you at all, just to make some rich people richer. From someone who "served" and found out what a sham it is. You'll either end up murdering poor 3rd world people or making it possible.

 60mm wrote:
Bobamus87, I'd worry less about 40k and more about your choice to go into the miltary. You should really consider a different avenue of life than jumping into an oppressive meatgrinder that doesn't care for you at all, just to make some rich people richer. From someone who "served" and found out what a sham it is. You'll either end up murdering poor 3rd world people or making it possible.

I mean....wow. from going to talking about an army list to peoples life choices......damn

While I appreciate forum users looking out for others regarding life choices--based on their experience--this is not the thread to depart such wisdom. Any further replies in that manner will be deleted. Thanks,

Ryan

 DPBellathrom wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
While I appreciate your support Peregrine. I think the point of this thread has been over looked. The game was certainly not the best I've ever played, but thats not why I posted here. I wanted to know if what people thought what I did was cheesy?

I'm pleased to see the majority thinks not. When I think cheese, I think an army list that wipes opponents clear off the board. The "cheese" thing that I did allowed me to kill 9 Longfangs and a single Wolf Guard Battle Leader with 20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns. I just don't see how that could ever be called "cheese".

thats the thing though. had he not have been inside a building there is a good chance that this list would have carved chunks out of his force. I would say that this list is cheesy. the words "20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns" kinda gives this away all the while not being able to shoot you back. like I said I have no problem with cheese but....damn I want to fight this list now :'3

Lets see 5th edition, Kan wall, 9 grotzookas = 18 small blasts a turn which were S:6 AP:5.... nah sounds fine to me.

 DPBellathrom wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
While I appreciate your support Peregrine. I think the point of this thread has been over looked. The game was certainly not the best I've ever played, but thats not why I posted here. I wanted to know if what people thought what I did was cheesy?

I'm pleased to see the majority thinks not. When I think cheese, I think an army list that wipes opponents clear off the board. The "cheese" thing that I did allowed me to kill 9 Longfangs and a single Wolf Guard Battle Leader with 20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns. I just don't see how that could ever be called "cheese".

thats the thing though. had he not have been inside a building there is a good chance that this list would have carved chunks out of his force. I would say that this list is cheesy. the words "20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns" kinda gives this away all the while not being able to shoot you back. like I said I have no problem with cheese but....damn I want to fight this list now :'3

I think he just hard countered, and I got pissed, and called it cheese out of frustration with standing there getting shot all night,(quite literally) and being able to do little to nothing in return. I think Crons are a tough nut to crack right now, especially against someone who knows what I have, and what I can do. I'm confident the next game will be better, Cryptek and I usually have pretty good/close games, and in retrospect, I kind of acted childish by getting pissed over a hard counter, even if my friends said it was cheese. Ultimately, he did what he had to do to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 60mm wrote:
Bobamus87, I'd worry less about 40k and more about your choice to go into the miltary. You should really consider a different avenue of life than jumping into an oppressive meatgrinder that doesn't care for you at all, just to make some rich people richer. From someone who "served" and found out what a sham it is. You'll either end up murdering poor 3rd world people or making it possible.

Pm'ed on the subject.

bobamus87 wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
While I appreciate your support Peregrine. I think the point of this thread has been over looked. The game was certainly not the best I've ever played, but thats not why I posted here. I wanted to know if what people thought what I did was cheesy?

I'm pleased to see the majority thinks not. When I think cheese, I think an army list that wipes opponents clear off the board. The "cheese" thing that I did allowed me to kill 9 Longfangs and a single Wolf Guard Battle Leader with 20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns. I just don't see how that could ever be called "cheese".

thats the thing though. had he not have been inside a building there is a good chance that this list would have carved chunks out of his force. I would say that this list is cheesy. the words "20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns" kinda gives this away all the while not being able to shoot you back. like I said I have no problem with cheese but....damn I want to fight this list now :'3

I think he just hard countered, and I got pissed, and called it cheese out of frustration with standing there getting shot all night,(quite literally) and being able to do little to nothing in return. I think Crons are a tough nut to crack right now, especially against someone who knows what I have, and what I can do. I'm confident the next game will be better, Cryptek and I usually have pretty good/close games, and in retrospect, I kind of acted childish by getting pissed over a hard counter, even if my friends said it was cheese. Ultimately, he did what he had to do to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 60mm wrote:
Bobamus87, I'd worry less about 40k and more about your choice to go into the miltary. You should really consider a different avenue of life than jumping into an oppressive meatgrinder that doesn't care for you at all, just to make some rich people richer. From someone who "served" and found out what a sham it is. You'll either end up murdering poor 3rd world people or making it possible.

Pm'ed on the subject.

Crons are top tier for sure right now no question about that and they are well armed to obliterate 3+ saves.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
While I appreciate your support Peregrine. I think the point of this thread has been over looked. The game was certainly not the best I've ever played, but thats not why I posted here. I wanted to know if what people thought what I did was cheesy?

I'm pleased to see the majority thinks not. When I think cheese, I think an army list that wipes opponents clear off the board. The "cheese" thing that I did allowed me to kill 9 Longfangs and a single Wolf Guard Battle Leader with 20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns. I just don't see how that could ever be called "cheese".

thats the thing though. had he not have been inside a building there is a good chance that this list would have carved chunks out of his force. I would say that this list is cheesy. the words "20 large blast templates over the course of 4 turns" kinda gives this away all the while not being able to shoot you back. like I said I have no problem with cheese but....damn I want to fight this list now :'3

Lets see 5th edition, Kan wall, 9 grotzookas = 18 small blasts a turn which were S:6 AP:5.... nah sounds fine to me.

pft, no problems here either. 18" away and not during night fighting, not to mention small templates with a low AP....I can deal with that just fine. hey, they might even get all those blasts through if my 3 rows of ML devs are having a bad day

and yeah, hah, bobamus87 if even you're saying it's not cheese well fine seeing as you were his opponent, though I still stand by what I said about the whole needing to win business but hey ho

Guys, you both sound like decent boys. We could really discuss the definition of cheese for ever and ever. I think that you both decide that it wasn't a particularly fun game and that in future, in your next game whenever that may be (boba, don't sell up, leave them with your friend for safe keeping. You'll want that army again one day), take on some of the advice here regarding 1 FoC, new different armies, etc, and start having fun with it again.

Best of luck to you both.

I'm curious to know how it took 3 hours if the gun line wasn't able to fire for the majority of the game...

But it does sound like sour grapes bobamus87, you spammed a heavy gun line and was outplayed, but say he 'did what he had to win'.

 snooggums wrote:
I'm curious to know how it took 3 hours if the gun line wasn't able to fire for the majority of the game...

But it does sound like sour grapes bobamus87, you spammed a heavy gun line and was outplayed, but say he 'did what he had to win'.

I know, I even admitted as much. I Think I'll do what Alan mentioned earlier, and maybe do counts as, for like BA, or normal SM. change it up a bit.