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Raw both sides can shoot the gun every turb. Rai it should be unmanned in order to jack it. Needs faq. Play raw until further notice

Or neither side can fire while its contested.

I voted "both sides can use", but obviously only if enemy is over 1" away while you do it.

What stops you from using it even if an enemy is within 1" of thequad gun. I haven't seen a rule in the BRB or FAQ that mentions contesting gun enplacements of prohibits a model from firing if they are within 1"?

You can't end your movement within 1" of an enemy model. So if your opponent places his models right it'd be impossible for you to get b2b with the gun.

The answer is NO. You can not "steal" your opponents guns. Here are my reasons. all of which are on page 96 of the BRB.
1. If your opponent purchases a model as part of his/her army then it becomes an "enemy model" and should be treated as such.
2. The emplaced weapon rules on page 96 of the BRB have quite clear rules on how to fire them.
3. To say a ADL and its weapon are terrain and "neutral" isnt true if purchased as part of an army. a neutral ADL would follow the rules for dilipated terrain.

 Prophet40k wrote:
The answer is NO. You can not "steal" your opponents guns. Here are my reasons. all of which are on page 96 of the BRB.
1. If your opponent purchases a model as part of his/her army then it becomes an "enemy model" and should be treated as such.
2. The emplaced weapon rules on page 96 of the BRB have quite clear rules on how to fire them.
3. To say a ADL and its weapon are terrain and "neutral" isnt true if purchased as part of an army. a neutral ADL would follow the rules for dilipated terrain.

So you are saying that if I murder all the units you place in your adl with an assault squad, that assault squad doesn't gain the same benefit when it comes to cover saves as the units that previously occupied it?

the rules for taking cover saves have nothing to do with where the cover saves come from so long as they make the requirements to recieve them. Doesnt matter if the model is blocked by my ADL.. your ADL or a dilipated ADL the cover saves would be the same.

Firing an Enemys gun emplacement are diffrent though as the rules for enemy models and how to treat them however are very clear.

 Prophet40k wrote:
The answer is NO. You can not "steal" your opponents guns. Here are my reasons. all of which are on page 96 of the BRB.
1. If your opponent purchases a model as part of his/her army then it becomes an "enemy model" and should be treated as such.
2. The emplaced weapon rules on page 96 of the BRB have quite clear rules on how to fire them.
3. To say a ADL and its weapon are terrain and "neutral" isnt true if purchased as part of an army. a neutral ADL would follow the rules for dilipated terrain.

The quad gun is not an emplaced weapon. None of the rules on page 96 apply.

Gun emplacement != Emplaced weapon

They can be confusing, however

ok. silly argument, but I see they are have diffrent difinitions pg96 and 105 respectfully.

But show me where it says that it isnt an enemy model. otherwise it would still follow the rules for a dilapadated emplacement no?

Do you mean gun emplacement is not equal to an emplaced weapon?

 wyomingfox wrote:
Do you mean gun emplacement is not equal to an emplaced weapon?

Yes they are two different things, each with is own rules.

 Prophet40k wrote:
ok. silly argument, but I see they are have diffrent difinitions pg96 and 105 respectfully.

It's a silly argument that different things are defined differently?

But show me where it says that it isnt an enemy model. otherwise it would still follow the rules for a dilapadated emplacement no?

BRB page 96 wrote:In this case, simply treat all fortifications not bought for either you or your opponent's army as being dilapidated.

So we know it's not dilapidated as it was bought for an army.

Gun Emplacement wrote:One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting.

So we know that it can be fired by any model.

Nope, not seeing that it's "owned" by anyone regardless of the fact that it was bought for one army.

MePeople wrote:
Yeah the Quad kinda sucks buts it better then a bolter. give er the rules say you gotta be in BtB with it. so you shoot it during your turn they shoot it during their turn.
Sharing is caring

LOL how can you think it sucks? Its 2 twin linked auto cannons... with skyfire. Its actually insane. Especially compared to a bolter...

How is it not "owned" by anyone? One player pays for it.

The fact that it may be un-attended does not change the fact that it is owned.

I look the part of the brb which tells me how to make my army (begining on pg 108) to support the fact that it is owned.

I fielded it as part of my army, therefore I believe that my opponent should treat it as an enemy model.

Except the rules do not support that view.

 Prophet40k wrote:
How is it not "owned" by anyone? One player pays for it.

Yes, but that doesn't stop the enemy from using it. No more than you paying for your ADL stops your opponent from getting cover save from being behind it or paying for your Bastion stops your enemy from embarking to it if you left it empty.

 Prophet40k wrote:
I fielded it as part of my army, therefore I believe that my opponent should treat it as an enemy model.

You have no real support for your belief though. Quad gun is not a unit in your army page 108: Unlike units, fortifications... . Therefore, the model is not part of your army either.

I have been through the BRB off and on all day looking for a defiitive answer as to what is an enemy model/unit. I have found no answer.
there is mention of an enemy model in the movement section where it tells me I can not end my move within 1" of one. (pg 10)

there is also mention of an enemy unit when I am asked to nominate one as a target when I elect to shoot.(pg12)

again I am told to pick an enemy unit when I wish to assault.(pg 20)
but in all these I am still not made aware of the definition of an enemy unit.

Are the models in your opponents army enemy models? Is his fortification part of his army? Both of these are yes or no answers.
So my answer to the question is still an adamant "no" you can not fire an enemy's quadgun/icarus cannon.
Why?
1. its an enemy model and you can not get within 1" unless you are assaulting it.
2. if you are in base contact with it you are in combat and un-able to fire.

Well, this is a rather tricky question, however, I think this may help. If you look at the Skyshield landing pad, you will note that even if it is purchased by one army, if the opponent reaches it first, they can dictate what position it is in, by the fact that they are "In control" of the equipment. Now, if two different armies are in base to base contact with it, No change in position is given, as they are contesting it. This seems to set a principle that regardless of who buys it, it can still be used by the opposition, since they have in effect claimed it from you. Now, in regards to the aegis defense line, anyone touching or inside it can claim the 4+ cover save, because they are in the area and have the ability to quickly take cover behind it. Now, in regards of being in base to base, if the enemy has taken your aegis defense line and quad gun, and do not destroy it, then they have every right to fire it, until you can take back the position. Now, if you have 2 units in assualt around the quad gun, as there is no other way to have units from two armies touching the quad gun, then consider the quad gun to be contested and unable to be fired, as the guards manning it would have far more important issues on their hand at the present time. Sound fair?

@ Luide while it may not be a unit in my codex. it is still indeed part of my army.

Let's not dismiss the Emplaced Weapons rule in BRB pg 96. I believe it is still relevant to this discussion.

Under Manual Fire:
If a building is occupied (ed. doesn't specify who) a model within can choose to fire one of the emplaced weapons instead of his own.

Under Automated Fire:
If a building is occupied (ed. again, doesn't specify) each emplaced weapon that is not being fired manually automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit (ed. enemy to who? the occupying unit) within range and line of sight.

Now let's look at Gun Emplacement in BRB pg 105:
One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon.

I would submit that the only difference between an Emplaced Weapon and a Gun Emplacement are the rules for adjacency/use, by friendly or enemy.
Plus, the rules for bought fortifications specify no difference from "neutral" fortifications other than a) placement and b) deployment/infiltrate/scout of units within/behind.

 Prophet40k wrote:
@ Luide while it may not be a unit in my codex. it is still indeed part of my army.

Nope, anyone can use it. Killing the quad gun will not give up a VP

@olcottr- what is a "neutral" fortification?

@Jd- where is your information from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On page 96, if you read the whole paragraph ( which I am famous for NOT doing lol)
It states buildings canbe added to you or your opponents army ( implying ownership), it then goes on to mention "neutral" buildings and tells you to treat neutral buildings as dilapidations,

The only problem is that an Aegis Defense Line is not a building. It is a fortification.

@ JD How is a fortification not part of my army? I am confused as to how this is so. On Page 108 of the BRB, the top of the page has large bold letters reading "Choosing Your Army" 3rd paragraph midway through it says "By adding together all the points value of the models you have selected, you can find out the points value of your army".

It doesnt say anything about neutral units, or mention items that can be purchased and then do not belong to you.

There is a detailed explanation of the various elements of an army HQ, EL, TR ect.. it then explains that you can even take allies from a diffrent codex, it tells you that you can take fortifications. All as part of the same army.

Since there is no where in the book where it tells us what an enemy model or unit is, we have to assume they are refering to models and units that are part of your opponents army. A very reasonable and logical assumption. If I have missed where the book explains this please point it out for me. Untill then I will be treating anything purchased as part of my army as mine.. and anything purchased as part of an opponents army as an enemy model.

It is terrain though.. and who owns the terrain that is on the board?

The defense line and the quad-gun are not one of your 'units', they are terrain and enemy models are allowed to move into/next to terrain.

 Prophet40k wrote:
@ JD How is a fortification not part of my army? I am confused as to how this is so. On Page 108 of the BRB, the top of the page has large bold letters reading "Choosing Your Army" 3rd paragraph midway through it says "By adding together all the points value of the models you have selected, you can find out the points value of your army".

Doesn't say anything about owning Battlefield Debris?

Also, the gun emplacement. One model in BtB can fire it (yada yada)

We have permission to use a quad gun on the table. It's not an enemy model as it's Terrain.

@JD but it does! it repeatedly as I have covered uses these terms. Its YOUR model its part of YOUR army, and is a part of YOUR force organizarion chart.
Yet YOU still cant own terrain then? well lets look at the specific rule. lets look up the rules for fortifications on page 114.

"Terrain Type. this tells you what part of the terrain rules you'll need to refer to when using YOUR fortification. this can be anything from a line of barricades to a large building".

It doesnt get any more cut and dry than that, clearly the fortification is owned and clearly it is terrain. In this case Battlefield debris.

yes it says any model may.. (yada yada) but lets see what happens when you come into btb with an Enemy Gun Emplacement.

Can you come into btb with enemy models?
Yes, though you must be in assault to do so.
Can you fire weapons while in assault?
No.
Can I assault fortifications?
Yes
Is the Gun emplacement a vehicle?
No.
What happens when you assault a non vehicle and do not kill it?

 Prophet40k wrote:
@JD but it does! it repeatedly as I have covered uses these terms. Its YOUR model its part of YOUR army, and is a part of YOUR force organizarion chart.
Yet YOU still cant own terrain then? well lets look at the specific rule. lets look up the rules for fortifications on page 114.

"Terrain Type. this tells you what part of the terrain rules you'll need to refer to when using YOUR fortification. this can be anything from a line of barricades to a large building".

It doesnt get any more cut and dry than that, clearly the fortification is owned and clearly it is terrain. In this case Battlefield debris.

yes it says any model may.. (yada yada) but lets see what happens when you come into btb with an Enemy Gun Emplacement.

Can you come into btb with enemy models?
Yes, though you must be in assault to do so.
Can you fire weapons while in assault?
No.
Can I assault fortifications?
Yes
Is the Gun emplacement a vehicle?
No.
What happens when you assault a non vehicle and do not kill it?

Actually is it an enemy model?
No
Can you assault it
No

It's neutral Terrain. You're trying to use rules for models ...