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Or any other CC based army for that matter? I played a game last night against a SW army and got tore up (admittedly my rolling was bad). He came at me with a predominantly CC list and mine was geared for anti-armor/general shooting.

What to do? I don't have access to allies (so DE aren't really an option) and have models for Banshees and Scorps, but no Karandras. I had thought of swapping my jetbike farseer with an autarch, but then I can't take the council, right? Eldar just doesn't have any good CC. I'm not sure what my other options are.

Advice and ideas are always appreciated.

Like all assault units, their counter is to shoot them.

1. Doom the Thunder Wolves.

2. Guide your shooters.

3. Shoot them.

 kronk wrote:
Like all assault units, their counter is to shoot them.

1. Doom the Thunder Wolves.

2. Guide your shooters.

3. Shoot them.

This is what you have to do.

1: Eldrad's divination. If you deploy 1st, you can often make your opponent deploy how you want then move your guys that are close to his cav away. This can mean 2-3 turns of the cav just running to get to you.

2: harlequins. I6, WS5, hit and run, and enough attacks to rend consistently. Doom+rending is amazing.

3: war walkers. As always, these guys can force saves in quantity on T5-. Guide 3 scatter walkers and thats 2 dead TW cav.

4: Yriel. While he doesnt survive long, he can take a lot of them out. he can kill 2 on the charge with his weapon or drop his template if there are a lot of them. With fortune he survives pretty decently. Will almost always make his points back unless he gets hammered.

5: FD work, as always. Reserve a squad of FD, hit and run with harlequins after they charge you, and you can easily wipe a full TW cav unit.


Doom and shoot always assume they havent already charged you. Within 24" that isnt reliable at all. Therefore, doom and shoot isnt going to be a tactic to rely upon unless you are mech, which is pretty much dead in 6th.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Like all assault units, their counter is to shoot them.

1. Doom the Thunder Wolves.

2. Guide your shooters.

3. Shoot them.

This is what you have to do.

Came here to say this. Glad that it is covered.

A fortuned avatar taking advantage of the smash rule to make himself S10 can double them out and survive with a re-rollable 4+ invuln.

That's pretty much what I did - guided WWs, but I didn't doom him (I was dooming other units). I was also rolling badly (6 ones only one hit on 5 Pathfinders and 6 FD) and he had an IC with Runic Armor and a guy with a SS so he was saving a lot too. I'll try the Harlies next time, maybe. What's a good configuration for them (Troupe Master, Shadowseer, etc)?

ally in DE venoms and laugh

 mars2024 wrote:
That's pretty much what I did - guided WWs, but I didn't doom him (I was dooming other units). I was also rolling badly (6 ones only one hit on 5 Pathfinders and 6 FD) and he had an IC with Runic Armor and a guy with a SS so he was saving a lot too. I'll try the Harlies next time, maybe. What's a good configuration for them (Troupe Master, Shadowseer, etc)?

You'll want alot of harlequin kisses for the rending ability. It's definately worth it to outkit all of your harlequins with those, though you could chose a power weapon for the troupe master. Thunderworlves have a 3+ save right? So I'd probably stick with the sword or go for the mace because S5 is pretty good against TW.

Don't bother with a death jester for facing TW. You might want to consider getting a fusion pistol or two, because that single Str 8 ap1 shot before charging might be useful, but it is quite expensive and ten points per pistol, so that's personal choice.

Otherwise I would recommend getting a squad of 6 or more harlequins if you're planning on facing fully kitted out TW.

 Exergy wrote:
ally in DE venoms and laugh

Or get laughed at when a sudden sneeze blows them to shreds.

He also posted about no access to allies.

Well placed Fire Dragons so you can kill ones w/o SS's first IMO.

I was thinking that that might have been my mistake: not using the sniping shots that did hit to whittle down the other (non-2+ Runic Armor) TWs. He rolled really well and that made things harder. Doom would have gone a long way, I think.

TWC squadrons are small. A larger Seer Council on foot should tie it up ad infinitum.

I had a 6 warlock jet-seer council. I lasted 2 turns. Another big difference was that I traded powers so I didn't have my usual doom/fortune on the council. He had 5 TWs, one lord w/Runic Armor, one w/SS, one w/Thunder Hammer. He lead with the lord and "LOS" a lot. He was putting out 5A for the lord and I think the same for each wolf (TH guy was maybe only 4A/turn). Thinking back, I think I did the 4++ most of the time instead of using my 3+ when I could, but it was just too much to shrug off.

Harlies should be run with 10x kisses and a shadowseer. Troupe master is generally overcosted 16 points for a power weapon (he doesnt have to buy kiss), 1 ld and an attack. Generally he wont be needed.

If he is including a wolf lord (the guy with runic) then he is spending 550+ points on this unit. Value it accordingly. For that cost you can get 20 harleqins, 2 shadowseers, troupe masters, and a fusion pistol in each squad.

As someone mentioned, the Avatar is another great bet. He can charge in, challenge the wolf lord, then beat him at his own game. At the same time that keeps the TWcav unit also tied in combat. Simply fortune the avatar and he will survive for quite a while. Once the avatar is done with the wolf lord, WS10, S10 2A that rerolls wounds should be able to squash a TW cav or two per round and the avatar's T6 really absorbs a lot of damage.


A linked fire prism might also be useful here since its a S10 small blast, meaning you could hit 2-3 models at a time. If you sit the prisms in opposite corners you can chose where the blast is coming from, meaning he cant use his SS to absorb the damage.

 mars2024 wrote:
I had a 6 warlock jet-seer council. I lasted 2 turns. Another big difference was that I traded powers so I didn't have my usual doom/fortune on the council. He had 5 TWs, one lord w/Runic Armor, one w/SS, one w/Thunder Hammer. He lead with the lord and "LOS" a lot. He was putting out 5A for the lord and I think the same for each wolf (TH guy was maybe only 4A/turn). Thinking back, I think I did the 4++ most of the time instead of using my 3+ when I could, but it was just too much to shrug off.

Well, a small jetlock council is not enough to deal with a larger unit of TWC. I usually run a 10 men unit (in the 5th mounted in a Serpent and in the 6th on foot led by a tougher character like Fuegan).

Do you have any reliable way to just tie that garbage up or block it? I guess eldar are all sorta overcosted so it's not easy to do. Sounds like he's got one super expensive unit there though.

I will almost always play with two fire prisms and like zephoid said they are sat in opposite corners (terrain permitting) and that can really hurt a lot of guys. I don't know space wolves at all as its one of the few armys that i don't have a friend who plays them. But then i also run with a 10 man harley squad all with kisses and a shadowseer and they can chew up most units in close combat. Then if you have some points left throw in some fusion pistols but otherwise don't worry about them. Eldrad is a must if you fancy swapping the powers out divination will help the harlequins and if you are lucky misfortune can really help.

Perhaps you should build an Eldar Fortress of redemption, hide most of your army inside and try to sniper out the powerfists/thunder hammers with guided pathfinders. Man the large fortress guns with firedragon exarchs.

Fortune is the key. Yuriel is another great key.

Stick Yuriel and the farseer with 10 scorpions. Fortune the squad.
When the TW calvary charge, take every rending wound onto Yuriel/Farseer. He has a 75% of having them bounce off.
Every non-rending hit throw on a scorpion. They have a 8/9 chance of saving.
If he has a TH, then you might want to just throw those on scorpions, as they insta-kill your ICs.

Now, use Yuriel and a scorpion exarch with claw to do the wounds back to the thunderwolves.

 mars2024 wrote:
I was thinking that that might have been my mistake: not using the sniping shots that did hit to whittle down the other (non-2+ Runic Armor) TWs. He rolled really well and that made things harder. Doom would have gone a long way, I think.

I've handled all but the 2+ Lord with Dire Avengers/Bladestorm + Doom. Than some pot shots from low ap weapons on the lord. Not exactly subtle, but those things gotta go.

labmouse42 wrote:Fortune is the key.
If he has a TH, then you might want to just throw those on scorpions, as they insta-kill your ICs.

Absolutely agree on Fortune. The council couldn't be insta-killed, but I think I was rolling their 4++ for every save rather than just the ones that I needed to. It's not much, but 3+ vs 4++ does make a difference. I suppose that Harlies are similar, but with a 5++ at least.

Fayric wrote:Perhaps you should build an Eldar Fortress of redemption, hide most of your army inside and try to sniper out the powerfists/thunder hammers with guided pathfinders. Man the large fortress guns with firedragon exarchs.

I'm actually working on an Eldar Bastion and was thinking that during the battle. I played with one once, but it seemed to really go against the Mech-dar style that I was used to. Against a CC army, though, it might not be so bad. I'll have to refresh my memory on the assault rules RE: ADLs and Bastions.

Da dakka boy wrote:I will almost always play with two fire prisms and like zephoid said they are sat in opposite corners (terrain permitting) and that can really hurt a lot of guys. I don't know space wolves at all as its one of the few armys that i don't have a friend who plays them. But then i also run with a 10 man harley squad all with kisses and a shadowseer and they can chew up most units in close combat. Then if you have some points left throw in some fusion pistols but otherwise don't worry about them. Eldrad is a must if you fancy swapping the powers out divination will help the harlequins and if you are lucky misfortune can really help.

Sadly I don't have fire prisms. I usually run as many WWs with my heavy slots as I can (right now 5 WWs but I'm hoping to pick up one more so I can field 2 full squads), but that sounds cool.
Also, I really don't like the randomness of the brb powers. I swapped last time with Eldrad and was really unhappy with what I got. If you could pick half or even just one it would be better. I just don't like showing up to a game and having a glaring variable in my own army.

Right now (based on this thread and my available models) this is my revised 2000pt list:
Eldrad
Farseer
6xFD+1Ex w/WS (tl SCan, tl SCat)
6xHarlies+2xHarlies w/FP+SS
9xDA+1Ex w/WS (tl SL, tl SCat)
3xGJB
3xGJB
5xPathfinders
5xWSs+1Ex
5xWSs+1Ex
2xWWs
3xWWs

I was thinking that I'd run Eldrad w/ the DAs (keeping near the WWs for guide) and run the other FS w/ the Harlies (for Doom and Fortune on them - or if I was feeling lucky trying for invisibility).

 mars2024 wrote:
Eldar just doesn't have any good CC. I'm not sure what my other options are.

Eldar have plenty of decent to good CC (Storm Guardians are cheap and get a lot of attacks, Striking Scorpions are fairly good at showing up where they're not wanted and shredding unsuspecting heavy weapon troops/artillery, Howling Banshees have been nerfed but they're still an effective counter to most MEQ, Harlequins can be fairly powerful, Wraithsword Wraithlords can tie up and beat down elite units). The problem is that Eldar are a fairly jack-of-all-trades list, which means your shooting choices aren't as impressive as more dedicated shooting armies and your close-combat choices aren't as effective as more dedicated assaulty armies. Thunderwolf Cavalry are fairly fast and good in close combat, true, but they're horribly expensive (80pts each if you give them storm shields) and come in small groups; your best options are to avoid them for as long as you can or tarpit them with cheap Wraithlords. S5 wounds T8 on 6+, so they can't fall back because they're fighting something they can't hurt, and if they didn't think to invest in a power fist it'll take a long, long time for them to make it past the Wraithguard, who is hitting with two S10 attacks that reroll to hit and ignore armor saves every turn...Bonus: a Wraithguard with a Wraithsword is a hundred points.

If you have a pressing need to kill them as fast as possible, Fire Prism templates are probably your best bet; combine at least two for a S10 blast to Instant Death them. But, and I cannot stress this enough, unless you're going to tarpit them with a Wraithguard avoid close combat at all costs.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 mars2024 wrote:
Eldar just doesn't have any good CC. I'm not sure what my other options are.

Eldar have plenty of decent to good CC (Storm Guardians are cheap and get a lot of attacks, Striking Scorpions are fairly good at showing up where they're not wanted and shredding unsuspecting heavy weapon troops/artillery, Howling Banshees have been nerfed but they're still an effective counter to most MEQ, Harlequins can be fairly powerful, Wraithsword Wraithlords can tie up and beat down elite units). The problem is that Eldar are a fairly jack-of-all-trades list, which means your shooting choices aren't as impressive as more dedicated shooting armies and your close-combat choices aren't as effective as more dedicated assaulty armies. Thunderwolf Cavalry are fairly fast and good in close combat, true, but they're horribly expensive (80pts each if you give them storm shields) and come in small groups; your best options are to avoid them for as long as you can or tarpit them with cheap Wraithlords. S5 wounds T8 on 6+, so they can't fall back because they're fighting something they can't hurt, and if they didn't think to invest in a power fist it'll take a long, long time for them to make it past the Wraithguard, who is hitting with two S10 attacks that reroll to hit and ignore armor saves every turn...Bonus: a Wraithguard with a Wraithsword is a hundred points.

If you have a pressing need to kill them as fast as possible, Fire Prism templates are probably your best bet; combine at least two for a S10 blast to Instant Death them. But, and I cannot stress this enough, unless you're going to tarpit them with a Wraithguard avoid close combat at all costs.

That's funny, because I think of Eldar as extremely not-Jack of all trades. The units that shoot do it ok, but not great (some do it great, but there are many in the codex who are only ok); and the units that CC are ok, but not great. However, the units that shoot need to avoid CC at all costs and the units that are ok in CC (1) suck at shooting and (2) take forever getting anywhere or are so squishy that they never make it into assault anyway. Almost any given MEQ unit does both - and does it better.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 mars2024 wrote:
Eldar just doesn't have any good CC. I'm not sure what my other options are.

Eldar have plenty of decent to good CC (Storm Guardians are cheap and get a lot of attacks, Striking Scorpions are fairly good at showing up where they're not wanted and shredding unsuspecting heavy weapon troops/artillery, Howling Banshees have been nerfed but they're still an effective counter to most MEQ, Harlequins can be fairly powerful, Wraithsword Wraithlords can tie up and beat down elite units). The problem is that Eldar are a fairly jack-of-all-trades list, which means your shooting choices aren't as impressive as more dedicated shooting armies and your close-combat choices aren't as effective as more dedicated assaulty armies. Thunderwolf Cavalry are fairly fast and good in close combat, true, but they're horribly expensive (80pts each if you give them storm shields) and come in small groups; your best options are to avoid them for as long as you can or tarpit them with cheap Wraithlords. S5 wounds T8 on 6+, so they can't fall back because they're fighting something they can't hurt, and if they didn't think to invest in a power fist it'll take a long, long time for them to make it past the Wraithguard, who is hitting with two S10 attacks that reroll to hit and ignore armor saves every turn...Bonus: a Wraithguard with a Wraithsword is a hundred points.

If you have a pressing need to kill them as fast as possible, Fire Prism templates are probably your best bet; combine at least two for a S10 blast to Instant Death them. But, and I cannot stress this enough, unless you're going to tarpit them with a Wraithguard avoid close combat at all costs.

Wraithguard would be no more than a speed bumb for thunderwolf cav. the lord will have ~6 S10 attacks on the first round of combat and ignores armor. The regular wolves have 4 attacks base with S5 rending. A unit of wraithguard will last at most 2 turns against that. A wraithlord even with it's T8 will still die in 1 round of combat (6 attacks, 4 hit, ~4 wounds from the wolf lord alone).

 labmouse42 wrote:
Fortune is the key. Yuriel is another great key.

Stick Yuriel and the farseer with 10 scorpions. Fortune the squad.
When the TW calvary charge, take every rending wound onto Yuriel/Farseer. He has a 75% of having them bounce off.
Every non-rending hit throw on a scorpion. They have a 8/9 chance of saving.
If he has a TH, then you might want to just throw those on scorpions, as they insta-kill your ICs.

Now, use Yuriel and a scorpion exarch with claw to do the wounds back to the thunderwolves.

Well, then I'd take a large Seer Councli led by Eldrad and Yriel. Both special characters are beat sticks as they wound on 2+ without an armor save.

 Thaylen wrote:
Wraithguard would be no more than a speed bumb for thunderwolf cav. the lord will have ~6 S10 attacks on the first round of combat and ignores armor. The regular wolves have 4 attacks base with S5 rending. A unit of wraithguard will last at most 2 turns against that. A wraithlord even with it's T8 will still die in 1 round of combat (6 attacks, 4 hit, ~4 wounds from the wolf lord alone).

Exactly. So what can I do?


Nevermind - I just looked at my reference sheet and reminded myself of how seldom I get in CC - there are all kinds of ICs that get multi-attacks and have multi-wounds. Not many, but a few.

How about adding Yriel (making room by removing the FS and one Harlie)?

I dislike blade storm dire avengers, and prefer defend shimmer shield da. They are often a decent cc stalling unit with fortune and an axe or maul on the exarch, with 4+/5++ and defend making the enemy lose a bunch of attacks. Plus they still shoot well every turn.

If you want to meet him in cc, do as what some have suggested with 2x harley squad deployed in an interlinking mesh (where x is one unit and y is another): X Y X Y X Y X Y, etc. This way if they wanted to assault you, they'd have to multicharge you (can't be within 1" of a unit they're not charging). I personally wouldn't do this, as it's kind of dickish, but if he's just playing a cheese list that you have a hard time combating, make him have fun deciding how to get past that unit.....especially with their shrouding + stealth.... Oh, use your fortuned seer bike council to be a mobile screen to give your harlies 2++ cover, while they have 3+/4++ rerollable. Have fun, SW's!

abbazabba1920 wrote:
If you want to meet him in cc, do as what some have suggested with 2x harley squad deployed in an interlinking mesh (where x is one unit and y is another): X Y X Y X Y X Y, etc. This way if they wanted to assault you, they'd have to multicharge you (can't be within 1" of a unit they're not charging). I personally wouldn't do this, as it's kind of dickish, but if he's just playing a cheese list that you have a hard time combating, make him have fun deciding how to get past that unit.....especially with their shrouding + stealth.... Oh, use your fortuned seer bike council to be a mobile screen to give your harlies 2++ cover, while they have 3+/4++ rerollable. Have fun, SW's!

I guess that's what I'm wondering: is there something that I'm missing other than beefing up my CC capabilities. I'd like to try the Fire Prism suggestion, but don't have the models. I've tried pouring a ton of fire on him, but I wasn't very effective. I ran the CC unit I usually run (jetseer council) but it wasn't very effective. The harlies seem a good counter without changing too much of my list. I don't want to build a list around countering his one unit, but I'd like to have a slightly more balanced list and I've really neglected CC (mostly since it seemed that Eldar didn't have any really good options). I feel a lot better about my options now (thanks everyone). If only I felt better about my relationship with the dice gods.