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Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 insaniak wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
If people cannot fathom Tolkien as written it is because the English language has devolved since the 50's, and if its overly long its because attention spans have largely declined in most English speaking cultures.

My attention span is just fine, as is my English comprehension.

The problem is waffle. There's far too much of it. I don't need to know the history of every single stone that the Fellowship manages to step on during their journey. And when you get to the end of the story, and the go

od guys have won, and all the exciting stuff is finished... that's the time to stop writing. You don't write another 15 chapters waffling on about everything that happened afterwards, unless your intention actually is to ensure that people just don't bother reading all the way to the end of the book more than once.

Don't get me wrong, I love the LOTR series. And as the precursor to much of today's contemporary fantasy it's an impressive piece of work. But what Tolkein wrote was half fantasy epic and half 'history' textbook. Which is fine if you like reading textbooks of fantasy history... but keeps him a fair way away from the 'greatest ever fantasy writer' spot in my book...


+1

I read the books from the age of 9 through to about 11, which is back in the 80s.

Alice In Wonderland, the Narnia Books, anything by Dickens or several of his peers, all are of an age or older than Lot, yet don't suffer from the bloated verbal obesity of those books.

They are special and unique books, but Tolkien suffered too much from falling in love with his characters and setting, and lost the ability to critique his own work.

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 Testify wrote:
 Howard A Treesong wrote:
 Testify wrote:
75 divided by 4 is not 25, it's 18.5. That's about £11. I regard that as reasonable for a single highly-detailed model.

If you don't, don't buy it. If we all made a post every time we decided *not* to do something, dakka would be a mess.


£11 is a lot for a single piece human sized figure. There nothing particularly complex, they are fairly average figures. £11 is well above the prices are for such things from other manufacturers. Were they not LOTR GW figures they would be much less in most ranges, fantasy figures such as these wouldn't get a second look at these prices from most companies. Some of the high cost is due to the cost if the licence, but a lot is due to GW squeezing for as much as they think the market can bear. You're paying for the Hobbit and GW brands, not because the figures are particularly outstanding.

Bare in mind that these things *are* collectables. The Hobbit is a book written by the single greatest fantasy author of all time, and as a series of films are a follow up to the greatest film series ever made. In 50 or 100 years time, people may not have heard of Space Marines or the Imperium of Man, but they will have heard of the Hobbit.


ugh, how can you call it the greatest film series of all time. it's so cheesy. it's almost as bad as twilight. they even made up and added a romance to shove down our throats to attract a female audience. i remember skipping the third movie because the second was so bad.
   
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 Testify wrote:
Bare in mind that these things *are* collectables.

That's why Collector's Workshop calls it "The Hobbit Strategy Battle Collection" and released a hardcover "Hobbit Collection Manual" which includes all collection values of the collector pieces

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 mrwhoop wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Testify wrote:
The Hobbit is a book written by the single greatest fantasy author of all time, ...

No, the Hobbit was written by Tolkein. Terry Pratchett came along later.


+1, noone learns to become a writer by way of Tolkein's style with overly long and descriptive writing. He created 4 great books with its own history but as an author he's terrible.

If you're used to Stephen King, I guess so. Tolkein is generally regarded as a very good author of fiction, though not very highly regarded by some intellectuals, purely because of his popularity.

Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in us
Wraith





Yeah, the pages spent describing the lembas bread was riveting reading.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/04 04:39:55


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 Testify wrote:
 mrwhoop wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Testify wrote:
The Hobbit is a book written by the single greatest fantasy author of all time, ...

No, the Hobbit was written by Tolkein. Terry Pratchett came along later.


+1, noone learns to become a writer by way of Tolkein's style with overly long and descriptive writing. He created 4 great books with its own history but as an author he's terrible.

If you're used to Stephen King, I guess so. Tolkein is generally regarded as a very good author of fiction, though not very highly regarded by some intellectuals, purely because of his popularity.



You are wrong on both counts. For one thing, Tolkein already had his time in the intellectual spotlight during the 70s, and was also very popular. Just like Stephen King was, back when he was on drugs in the 80s. Stephen King is still fairly popular in the mainstream, even among the few literary types who are willing to "endure" fantasy fiction, while Tolkein is only relevant because so many writers decided to copy his work or improve upon it, kind of like Lovecraft. For another, Stephen King's early literature had the kind of meat English majors love: themes, characters who wrestle with the human (or otherwise) condition, honesty, modern prose techniques, themes, pretentiousness (Oh man, The Dark Tower!). Tolkein's LotR has some thematic work, but the prose is as stilted for modern readers as Lovecraft's was, and he seems to have been just as clueless about techniques such as "Chekhov's Gun". And his characters never felt like real people or wrestled with the kinds of struggles Literary types care about (except for Samwise, who was awesome).

If you stripped Tolkein's work of his name and it's place in history as the first high fantasy to steal Europe's myths and make it into print in a nonserialized manner, and read it next to Wolfe, Varley, Martin, Sanderson, Lieber, Le Guin, Hobb, Cook or even King, it would come off as tedious, underdevelopped (plot, characters, interest) and "too PG", i.e., dishonest.

He was never the best. He was just (one of) the first.

EDIT: I just want to point out that both authors echo their inspirations. Tolkein loved languages and old folklore and literature, and it shows. Stephen King studied more modern literature and taught English, and it shows. They both had different aims for their work, and they were very successful (although Tolkein's big success did not come nearly as quickly).

Also, no modern author could ever get away with writing a book where nothing happened in the first 100 pages and still get published. Well, not unless he's French.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/04 05:41:48


   
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12thRonin wrote:
Yeah, the pages spent describing the lembas bread was riveting reading.


That made me lol. Thank you.

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Warsaw, Poland

 Testify wrote:
75 divided by 4 is not 25, it's 18.5. That's about £11. I regard that as reasonable for a single highly-detailed model.

If you don't, don't buy it. If we all made a post every time we decided *not* to do something, dakka would be a mess.


Wow, thanks for the basic math lesson. Do try to read and understand the context next time.

11 GBP is too much for a model like this, and you are right I would not buy it. Infinity models are prettier and cheaper.

   
Made in ie
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Frostgrave

 Testify wrote:
 Howard A Treesong wrote:
 Testify wrote:
75 divided by 4 is not 25, it's 18.5. That's about £11. I regard that as reasonable for a single highly-detailed model.

If you don't, don't buy it. If we all made a post every time we decided *not* to do something, dakka would be a mess.


£11 is a lot for a single piece human sized figure. There nothing particularly complex, they are fairly average figures. £11 is well above the prices are for such things from other manufacturers. Were they not LOTR GW figures they would be much less in most ranges, fantasy figures such as these wouldn't get a second look at these prices from most companies. Some of the high cost is due to the cost if the licence, but a lot is due to GW squeezing for as much as they think the market can bear. You're paying for the Hobbit and GW brands, not because the figures are particularly outstanding.

Bare in mind that these things *are* collectables. The Hobbit is a book written by the single greatest fantasy author of all time, and as a series of films are a follow up to the greatest film series ever made. In 50 or 100 years time, people may not have heard of Space Marines or the Imperium of Man, but they will have heard of the Hobbit.


Is this fellowship set more collectable than the previous set? Or than actual complete figures from other companies?

I guess one thing that'll improve it's collector status is its rarity, but it won't be unopened box as people will want to verify the casts. I could take a shrink-wrapped plastic/metal box from the 90's without checking, but not a finecast. I'm also not sure how many "collectors" want something that needs to be assembled/painted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
11GBP feels like a lot for a figure in a box set, even if they would cost 15GBP individually, which is pretty expensive for a poor cast of an alright figure. I can get boutique figures in real resin for less than that (such as from CMoN, Kabuki, Scribor)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/04 09:47:00


 
   
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Well, I have to disagree with you guys about the Tolkien bit. I'd like you to give me one example of a single author who had created such a developed world. And another who captivated the world with his writing in the same way Tolkien did, and spawned so many works similar to his.

He may not have been the most exciting writer, and his works may have been too detailed, but if you'd worked so damn hard on creating this world you're not going to say "Legolas ate some Lembas bread" - you're going to want to expand on what Lembas bread is.
   
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I hate to agree with the guy with the Burzum avatar (Burzum, really guy? You know who and what Varg is, right?) but Tolkien isn't nearly as bad as many are making him out to be.

I imagine those that dislike Tolkien would find it impossible to read Moby Dick, Faulkner, Ivanhoe, or other such things.

Not that Tolkien doesn't have his problems, but he was setting out to do something very specific (create a modern myth) and he does it well. That his prose comes off the way it does was sort of the point.
   
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kb305 wrote:
 Testify wrote:

ugh, how can you call it the greatest film series of all time. it's so cheesy. it's almost as bad as twilight. they even made up and added a romance to shove down our throats to attract a female audience. i remember skipping the third movie because the second was so bad.


LOL you watched twilight..? Yeah, they (LotR) were good movies but not GREAT movies. Still rate them though...

Seriously, the worst thing with LotR is that it is hard to find anyone else who plays and actually get a game.

I could see people "collecting" the miniatures if they were still metal.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Testify wrote:
If you're used to Stephen King, I guess so. Tolkein is generally regarded as a very good author of fiction, though not very highly regarded by some intellectuals, purely because of his popularity.


I like how you constructed it. Tolkein is a great author, and the only way you can think otherwise is if you're a lowbrow idiot hipster. No other option, bro.

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SoCal

TheHammer wrote:
I hate to agree with the guy with the Burzum avatar (Burzum, really guy? You know who and what Varg is, right?) but Tolkien isn't nearly as bad as many are making him out to be.
.


Let me explain. No, too long. Let me sum up:

"Tolkein is the greatest fantasy writer of all time."

"No, he wasn't. (And here's why.)."

"Hey! He's not nearly that bad!"

   
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Southeastern PA, USA

 Ouze wrote:
 Testify wrote:
If you're used to Stephen King, I guess so. Tolkein is generally regarded as a very good author of fiction, though not very highly regarded by some intellectuals, purely because of his popularity.


I like how you constructed it. Tolkein is a great fantasy author, and beyond that YMMV.


Fixed your typos.

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TheHammer wrote:
I hate to agree with the guy with the Burzum avatar (Burzum, really guy? You know who and what Varg is, right?) but Tolkien isn't nearly as bad as many are making him out to be.

I imagine those that dislike Tolkien would find it impossible to read Moby Dick, Faulkner, Ivanhoe, or other such things.

Not that Tolkien doesn't have his problems, but he was setting out to do something very specific (create a modern myth) and he does it well. That his prose comes off the way it does was sort of the point.


Whilst I don't agree with his politics, Burzum is an epic band with epic music and Varg is somewhat interesting. You must admit - Filosofem and Hvis Lyset Tar Oss are phenomenal.

Basically he said it better than I did.
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






cough cough...TolkIEn...cough

And ninja'd too.

Should we start a separate thread for Tolkien dissection, and keep this one on topic?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/12/04 14:47:10


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
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Limerick

 azreal13 wrote:
They are special and unique books, but Tolkien suffered too much from falling in love with his characters and setting, and lost the ability to critique his own work.


Actually that's not true at all, the book is exactly as he intended it be. It was not meant to be a critical work and he wrote it for himself for than anyone else. He was not a professional writter and wasn't interested in writing a professional novel that everyone would be interested in, but rather creating a semi-historical piece to give a sense of mythology to an otherwise boring Great Britain. It was meant as a piece of pseudo-history and linguistics, not a piece of pop fiction. Essentially the reason there is little character development in the books is because they were, to him, the least important part of the work. They simply facilitated necessary factors in order to finish the work he was trying to produce.

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I cant believe people are slagging Tolkien off by the way... It might be valid if it was coming from a prodigy in the literary world or something... but who really worth their salt in the field actually says the guy was a fething idiot?


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 mattyrm wrote:
I cant believe people are slagging Tolkien off by the way... It might be valid if it was coming from a prodigy in the literary world or something... but who really worth their salt in the field actually says the guy was a fething idiot?



Oh look what a red herring we have here. The old adage of we're not allowed to criticize something unless we're an expert in the field.

Erm, no.

Criticism does not work that way, and for the record; I do in fact have a degree in English Lit. So stick that in your tailpipe.



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 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Well, I have to disagree with you guys about the Tolkien bit. I'd like you to give me one example of a single author who had created such a developed world. And another who captivated the world with his writing in the same way Tolkien did, and spawned so many works similar to his.

CS Lewis, Frank Herbert, Terry Pratchett, George Lucas, Gene Roddenberry, Larry Niven, George R.R. Martin, Issac Asimov, Arther C. Clarke, Robert Jordan just for a few off the top of my head. Hell even throw L. Ron Hubbard in the mix (he started a religion based off his fiction).

He may not have been the most exciting writer, and his works may have been too detailed, but if you'd worked so damn hard on creating this world you're not going to say "Legolas ate some Lembas bread" - you're going to want to expand on what Lembas bread is.


"Legolas ate some Lembas bread (which is similar to hardtack and other trail breads of men)." Done.
   
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 Grimtuff wrote:
 mattyrm wrote:
I cant believe people are slagging Tolkien off by the way... It might be valid if it was coming from a prodigy in the literary world or something... but who really worth their salt in the field actually says the guy was a fething idiot?


Oh look what a red herring we have here. The old adage of we're not allowed to criticize something unless we're an expert in the field.
Erm, no.
Criticism does not work that way, and for the record; I do in fact have a degree in English Lit. So stick that in your tailpipe.


Ok several things, firstly, you are obviously allowed to criticize anything you like, and I didn't say any differently, I just said it lacks credibility, and it obviously does, hoist that clearly logical point on board.

Not having any knowledge in something and criticizing it really does make you look silly. If you met fething Diego Maradona and you started telling him the best way to control a football, do you think he would be well impressed by your yarn and be desperate to hear more of your knowledge, or would he just think "who the feth is this guy?"

I've done 6 combat tours with the Royal Marines, do you think I would be hugely impressed by a 15 year old lad started telling me the correct way to fast-rope out of a helicopter because he has seen it on TV?

And furthermore, I'm not often one to criticize peoples educational pursuits, all learning is good learning in my eyes, but a degree in English literature is hardly "stick it in your tailpipe" material... you should practice a little humility. I mean, I'd stick it in my tailpipe and be as impressed as feth if you had a degree in theoretical physics or something regardless of the subject matter, but English literature is right up there next to "Golf course management" degrees with regards to things I will happily work up my dirt-box.

I got an A* at GCSE in English Literature and I had about as much interest in Lord of the Flies and Romeo and Juliet as I have in catching my missus in bed with my Grandad.

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You must be joking. There's more to Middle-Earth than the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. There's the stories of the First Age that are amazingly developed. Let's take George Lucas - he didn't develop the Star Wars world by himself, he got the help of a team of writers, producers and things like that. Meanwhile, Tolkien developed his world by himself in the trenches of France during the First World War. Hell, he even created many different languages for use in his works. These languages can even be spoken! Half of those writers that you mentioned can trace the origin of their works to Tolkien as well.

And that won't really cut it in a novel of LOTR. Sorry.
   
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Lincoln, UK

 mattyrm wrote:
I cant believe people are slagging Tolkien off by the way... It might be valid if it was coming from a prodigy in the literary world or something... but who really worth their salt in the field actually says the guy was a fething idiot?



You don't have to say that he's an idiot to not like his writing style. Personally, I find it really turgid. Plus, it really hacks me off when people talk like he invented fantasy. Really dismissive of a whole bunch of bloody excellent writers that were producing fantasy before him.

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 mattyrm wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 mattyrm wrote:
I cant believe people are slagging Tolkien off by the way... It might be valid if it was coming from a prodigy in the literary world or something... but who really worth their salt in the field actually says the guy was a fething idiot?


Oh look what a red herring we have here. The old adage of we're not allowed to criticize something unless we're an expert in the field.
Erm, no.
Criticism does not work that way, and for the record; I do in fact have a degree in English Lit. So stick that in your tailpipe.


Ok several things, firstly, you are obviously allowed to criticize anything you like, and I didn't say any differently, I just said it lacks credibility, and it obviously does, hoist that clearly logical point on board.

Not having any knowledge in something and criticizing it really does make you look silly. If you met fething Diego Maradona and you started telling him the best way to control a football, do you think he would be well impressed by your yarn and be desperate to hear more of your knowledge, or would he just think "who the feth is this guy?"

I've done 6 combat tours with the Royal Marines, do you think I would be hugely impressed by a 15 year old lad started telling me the correct way to fast-rope out of a helicopter because he has seen it on TV?

And furthermore, I'm not often one to criticize peoples educational pursuits, all learning is good learning in my eyes, but a degree in English literature is hardly "stick it in your tailpipe" material... you should practice a little humility. I mean, I'd stick it in my tailpipe and be as impressed as feth if you had a degree in theoretical physics or something regardless of the subject matter, but English literature is right up there next to "Golf course management" degrees with regards to things I will happily work up my dirt-box.

I got an A* at GCSE in English Literature and I had about as much interest in Lord of the Flies and Romeo and Juliet as I have in catching my missus in bed with my Grandad.


Back to the ignore list you go. TTFN. I really cannot be bothered with you at all now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/04 16:02:41



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Mattyrm - you're not helping us Tolkien-crusaders.
   
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 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Mattyrm - you're not helping us Tolkien-crusaders.


He threw some insults at me, I tossed a few back and I'm the bad man because he put me on his ignore list?

Come on man.. read what the bloke wrote, If people want to tell people to shove things up their asses they should at least expect a tiny bit of gak back.

On the topic, this is perfectly acceptable criticism for example...


 htj wrote:
 mattyrm wrote:
I cant believe people are slagging Tolkien off by the way... It might be valid if it was coming from a prodigy in the literary world or something... but who really worth their salt in the field actually says the guy was a fething idiot?



You don't have to say that he's an idiot to not like his writing style. Personally, I find it really turgid. Plus, it really hacks me off when people talk like he invented fantasy. Really dismissive of a whole bunch of bloody excellent writers that were producing fantasy before him.


And I can agree with much of it, I read absolutely loads of fantasy, and some of Tolkien's needlessly lengthy prose annoys me as well. There is a big difference though, in saying you don't like his writing style, and get annoyed by just how much smoke gets blown up his ass, and making out like you personally can do better/he was a fething moron/couldn't write for toffee. I don't care for J K Rowling, but I would never say she cant write or is totally clueless. People on the internet seem to make really wide ranging statements with regards to their personal choices of movie/music and such, and its that which I was making a point about.

Although, now I think about it.. I suppose none of this is on the topic eh?

On the topic, GW aren't losing their minds, they are just a wee bit too expensive.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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Texas

Well, this topic suddenly had a strange turn of events...

Perhaps the discussions of Tolkien would be better suited for another board/forum? Maybe thats just me

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/04 16:38:35


 
   
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Scotland

People always talk about literature and art etc out of context; do I find tolkien's writing style turgid? Yes. Would I have found it turgid at the time that he wrote it? Probably not, because in the cultural context in which it was written, it was something new and exciting.

It wasn't the first fantasy ever written, but it was one of the first true epic fantasies.

If he wrote them today, they would be massacred by a modern editor, with at least 3-400 pages shaved off them, because our current cultural context is obsessed with 'quick-fix' satisfaction delivery. Look at one of the most successful modern fantasy franchises - the Harry potter books. The initial couple are almost pamphlet sized. Sadly, Rowling's editor became frightened to tell her to cut things, and as a result, she developed some similar over-detailing of irrelevant stuff to Tolkien's as the series continued.

In case anyone wants to question my right to hold an opinion, I have a degree in creative writing, have had sci-fi, fantasy and horror shorts published on both sides of the atlantic, and have written dissertations on subjects such as 'the development of the horror genre from stoker to king', so yeah, I think I'm as qualified as anyone else on here to have an opinion. :p

   
 
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