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Made in gb
Powerful Pegasus Knight





If you have time to give to the hobby you have time to paint. It's just a case of how you appreciate that aspect of the hobby.

Maybe it is a UK thing but the majority of groups I have been involved in have had rule on fielding painted models (i.e. if they're not painted they're not allowed on the tabletop). I saw this as a compromise rather than a radical exclusive penalty.
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 Glorioski wrote:
If you have time to give to the hobby you have time to paint. It's just a case of how you appreciate that aspect of the hobby.


Not true at all. If my friend has time to get away and play a game of 40k, he'd rather do that than paint. And that's up to him. It's not disrespectful to any opponent - telling him to bugger off and paint because he's not worthy of playing until he paints his stuff, that's disrespectful.

 Glorioski wrote:
Maybe it is a UK thing but the majority of groups I have been involved in have had rule on fielding painted models (i.e. if they're not painted they're not allowed on the tabletop). I saw this as a compromise rather than a radical exclusive penalty.


Lucky them. That doesn't mean every group is going to be the same. I'd wager not every group in the UK is like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 06:37:18


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Ork and Catachan Training Center, Australia

Get off your high horse, Peregrine. Facts:

You don't know everything.

Some people have different opinions.

Some people only have the time to assemble armies, because they may enjoy other things as well.

Some people are not good at painting, and they feel embarassed if their army is not painted good. Thats why I have only played one game at my FLGS: Because I spent so much on my space marines, even though their paintjob is mediocre, because it is embarassing to have a bad army. I would prefer fielding unpainted to fielding horribly painted.

Against. Reward the painters for hard effort invested in such a beautiful army; do not penalise people who are not good enough, embarased or actually do not have enough time to make a good army.

By bolter and honour, by blood and fire, we shall cleanse this galaxy. By Vulkan, and by the Emperor, CHARGE!

Yo Dawgs, I heard you like grimdark, so I put grimdark in yo grimdark in yo grimdark in yo universe that is obviously grimdark.

"On the Anvil of War are the strong tempered and the weak made to perish, thus are men's souls tested as metal in the forge's fire." — Primarch Vulkan  
   
Made in gb
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 -Loki- wrote:
 Glorioski wrote:
If you have time to give to the hobby you have time to paint. It's just a case of how you appreciate that aspect of the hobby.


Not true at all. If my friend has time to get away and play a game of 40k, he'd rather do that than paint.


In that case it is true isn't it. As he has time to give to the hobby and appreciates the gaming aspect more than painting.
   
Made in au
Drone without a Controller




ATT Orbital

In response to people claiming that it is lazy to not paint an army; yes, you can do a simple and easy scheme across your entire army with minimal effort, and yes, it would be lovely if everyone had nicely painted forces to game with.

However, this is not inclusive to everyone's situation. I love painting models, and I look eagerly forward to the day my army is finished and painted. I do however, like to take my time painting each model. I try to be as meticulous and detailed as I can on each model - I'm not claiming to be a fantastic painter, but I have no intentions of painting my army to anything but my best abilities. Unfortunately, between studying and my various other commitments, I am only able to spend a few hours a week painting, if that. I don't expect to have 2000pts of painted models for several years minimum, and I'd rather not be limited to smaller games (Peregrine; I believe you once stated that 40K was unplayable below 1000pts).

If my local group instigated a penalty for unpainted armies, I would likely just stop playing with them. Fortunately, I have a few close friends whom I game with separately. Many others don't have this alternative.
In summary, I feel that it would be an inconstructive and unfair rule to set in place.

"Truth was a flame against a sleeping lake of petrol."
- Sarath Diyasena, Anil's Ghost. 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 Glorioski wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 Glorioski wrote:
If you have time to give to the hobby you have time to paint. It's just a case of how you appreciate that aspect of the hobby.


Not true at all. If my friend has time to get away and play a game of 40k, he'd rather do that than paint.


In that case it is true isn't it. As he has time to give to the hobby and appreciates the gaming aspect more than painting.


Well no. That time where he is playing a game with us is his time getting out of the house. If he's painting, he's not accomplishing 'getting out of the house for a few hours'. Building a squad takes 10 minutes. Painting a squad takes a lot longer. It's easier to find the time to quickly build a squad than it is to find the time to sit down and paint it.

People have their own time commitments. Making a rule that disadvantages them because they don't conform to your idea of hobby time is extremely disrespectful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 06:54:15


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Legion of Flame wrote:
Some people only have the time to assemble armies, because they may enjoy other things as well.


Then give up an hour or two of assembling units and do a basic paint job on your entire army. Or skip buying a unit and get someone to do it for you.

Some people are not good at painting, and they feel embarassed if their army is not painted good. Thats why I have only played one game at my FLGS: Because I spent so much on my space marines, even though their paintjob is mediocre, because it is embarassing to have a bad army. I would prefer fielding unpainted to fielding horribly painted.


You honestly think that badly painted armies are better than bare plastic ones?

Against. Reward the painters for hard effort invested in such a beautiful army; do not penalise people who are not good enough, embarased or actually do not have enough time to make a good army.


In a zero-sum game a reward to one player is a penalty for the other. You can't magically reward painting without simultaneously penalizing anyone who doesn't qualify for that reward.

 Aun Tier wrote:
However, this is not inclusive to everyone's situation. I love painting models, and I look eagerly forward to the day my army is finished and painted. I do however, like to take my time painting each model. I try to be as meticulous and detailed as I can on each model - I'm not claiming to be a fantastic painter, but I have no intentions of painting my army to anything but my best abilities. Unfortunately, between studying and my various other commitments, I am only able to spend a few hours a week painting, if that. I don't expect to have 2000pts of painted models for several years minimum, and I'd rather not be limited to smaller games (Peregrine; I believe you once stated that 40K was unplayable below 1000pts).


As I said before in this thread, in my experience you are in the minority on this. Most, if not all, of the unpainted armies I encounter also have sloppy assembly, broken parts that were never fixed, puddles of glue everywhere, etc. And if they have a painted model somewhere, the painting sucks. These aren't expert painters who are reluctant to ruin a model by painting it too quickly, these are people who just don't give a about how their army looks as long as it wins games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 -Loki- wrote:
Building a squad takes 10 minutes. Painting a squad takes a lot longer.


Actually painting a squad takes 10 minutes. Spray with colored primer, spend a few minutes painting simple single-color details like faces/guns/etc, then wash/dip the entire model.

Also, you're only assembling an entire squad in 10 minutes if you don't give a about how it looks and ignore all the mold lines, leave glue puddles everywhere, never fill the gaps between parts, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 06:56:19


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 -Loki- wrote:
 Glorioski wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 Glorioski wrote:
If you have time to give to the hobby you have time to paint. It's just a case of how you appreciate that aspect of the hobby.


Not true at all. If my friend has time to get away and play a game of 40k, he'd rather do that than paint.


In that case it is true isn't it. As he has time to give to the hobby and appreciates the gaming aspect more than painting.


Well no. That time where he is playing a game with us is his time getting out of the house. If he's painting, he's not accomplishing 'getting out of the house for a few hours'. Building a squad takes 10 minutes. Painting a squad takes a lot longer. It's easier to find the time to quickly build a squad than it is to find the time to sit down and paint it.

People have their own time commitments. Making a rule that disadvantages them because they don't conform to your idea of hobby time is extremely disrespectful.


It takes me like 10-15min per guy.

Snip, trim flashing, re-trim flashing,Pin(yes even simple plastic models)(practice), Glue.

I just did this with about 90 or so Ork boyz I had gotten second hand. Was changing them from Choppa/slugga to shootaz, oh my what a frickin mess that was.

I personally hate painting. It's hard to find the time to do it, but once it's done the army looks 100% better, even with a mediocre paint job.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 06:58:06


   
Made in gb
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 -Loki- wrote:
 Glorioski wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 Glorioski wrote:
If you have time to give to the hobby you have time to paint. It's just a case of how you appreciate that aspect of the hobby.


Not true at all. If my friend has time to get away and play a game of 40k, he'd rather do that than paint.


In that case it is true isn't it. As he has time to give to the hobby and appreciates the gaming aspect more than painting.


Well no. That time where he is playing a game with us is his time getting out of the house. If he's painting, he's not accomplishing 'getting out of the house for a few hours'. Building a squad takes 10 minutes. Painting a squad takes a lot longer. It's easier to find the time to quickly build a squad than it is to find the time to sit down and paint it.

People have their own time commitments. Making a rule that disadvantages them because they don't conform to your idea of hobby time is extremely disrespectful.


So once again he has time to give to the hobby and plays instead of paints.

Getting out of the house has little to do with it. Painting can be a social activity, taking paints and a few models along on gaming night to paint while others play is pretty standard.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Ork and Catachan Training Center, Australia



 Peregrine wrote:
[
Some people are not good at painting, and they feel embarassed if their army is not painted good. Thats why I have only played one game at my FLGS: Because I spent so much on my space marines, even though their paintjob is mediocre, because it is embarassing to have a bad army. I would prefer fielding unpainted to fielding horribly painted.


You honestly think that badly painted armies are better than bare plastic ones?.


You got it wrong. I think unpainted are better than badly painted ones. It depends though.

If they literally suck at painting, I will congratulate them for giving it a go. But, if they were good painters, but didn't have enough time, it would be embarrassing for them to field badly painted models. Why feel uncomfortable playing a game you're supposed to enjoy?


By bolter and honour, by blood and fire, we shall cleanse this galaxy. By Vulkan, and by the Emperor, CHARGE!

Yo Dawgs, I heard you like grimdark, so I put grimdark in yo grimdark in yo grimdark in yo universe that is obviously grimdark.

"On the Anvil of War are the strong tempered and the weak made to perish, thus are men's souls tested as metal in the forge's fire." — Primarch Vulkan  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Legion of Flame wrote:
But, if they were good painters, but didn't have enough time, it would be embarrassing for them to field badly painted models.


Except, as I've said several times already, "good painters which don't have time right now to paint to their acceptable level" do not seem to be anywhere near a majority of the unpainted army owners. In my experience most people who don't paint their armies don't paint because they don't care how it looks, and are happy to play with carelessly assembled (and often broken) models and then just toss them in a box when they're done like cheap toys.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver



Oklahoma

Even though I would prefer to see painted armies on the field, I think rewarded those that do is more preferable to those that don't. This hobby is expensive and time consuming enough as is to put someone in a tough spot just because they have stock gray marines.

And I do see this as a punishment because if players were going to get preferred enemy on me just because I didnt manage to get those new meganobz painted in time for tourney (but have all 300 boyz done beautifully) It wouldn't be worth going to tourney. And TBH, I probably would find another tourney or FLGS to go to for my games. (got a lot of options locally.)

When you think of the new player just getting in, or a player that really sucks at painting and wants to save up for a commission but still wants to play, or those on this thread that are just slow at playing, your asking them to not play even though they have a pretty good reason not to paint.

When you say its disrespectful to you that they do not paint their stuff, yet I see it as pretty darn disrespectful to them to tell them they cant have fun today unless they at least to some crappy spray can job on their models.
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader




San Diego, CA

For tournament its definatly understandable that unpainted or partially models be given penalties. For casual games definatly not. That's being far too strict. Especialy with new players and people who just got new figures to play with. Painting is extremely time consuming

 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 Glorioski wrote:
If you have time to give to the hobby you have time to paint. It's just a case of how you appreciate that aspect of the hobby.

Maybe it is a UK thing but the majority of groups I have been involved in have had rule on fielding painted models (i.e. if they're not painted they're not allowed on the tabletop). I saw this as a compromise rather than a radical exclusive penalty.


BS.

I work full time, go to school full time, am married, and have three kids all aged 4 years or younger. I have to find time for all of that, my other hobbies, and get the occasional game in. My armies are painted because I pay people to get them done.

The idea of the original OP is just more elitist crap that would just make me get up and walk away from the game, even with my painted armies.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

 Glorioski wrote:

So once again he has time to give to the hobby and plays instead of paints.


Again and again, you keep saying this. "Time to give to the hobby," like it's some sort of charity or job or something venerable. It's just a hobby that people enjoy in different ways.

You come off as some 15 year old who has all the free time in the world and a single-minded reverence for all things GW.

If such is the case, I can only encourage you to enjoy the time you have to spend on your hobbies. It won't be long before it begins fleeting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/03 07:13:54


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






djones520 wrote:
I work full time, go to school full time, am married, and have three kids all aged 4 years or younger. I have to find time for all of that, my other hobbies, and get the occasional game in. My armies are painted because I pay people to get them done.


So how is it that you have time to assemble your models (if you do it yourself) and play the game, but can't find a couple hours to paint your entire army and never have to do it again?

 Fafnir wrote:
You come off as some 15 year old who has all the free time in the world and a single-minded reverence for all things GW.


You don't need "all the free time in the world" to have a fully painted army. If you don't care much about painting (IOW, you're not a dedicated painter who is just in the middle of a busy month at work) you can paint an entire army with a small one-time investment of hobby time. Give up a single game and the rest of your games will be played with a fully painted army.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 Fafnir wrote:
 Glorioski wrote:

So once again he has time to give to the hobby and plays instead of paints.


Again and again, you keep saying this. "Time to give to the hobby," like it's some sort of charity or job or something venerable. It's just a hobby that people enjoy in different ways.

You come off as some 15 year old who has all the free time in the world and a single-minded reverence for all things GW.

If such is the case, I can only encourage you to enjoy the time you have to spend on your hobbies. It won't be long before it begins fleeting.


The point is if you have time to play you have time to paint.

I work 60 hours a week ftr.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Peoria IL

How about something simpler... like can't seize the initiative on a painted army unless you are a painted army... painted armies always win initiative against unpainted ones?

Gives a little bump to the painted guy without being a constant pain and rubbing it in all game. IF a club was looking for an ingame bonus for finished forces, this is how I'd go at it.

DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
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One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 Peregrine wrote:
djones520 wrote:
I work full time, go to school full time, am married, and have three kids all aged 4 years or younger. I have to find time for all of that, my other hobbies, and get the occasional game in. My armies are painted because I pay people to get them done.


So how is it that you have time to assemble your models (if you do it yourself) and play the game, but can't find a couple hours to paint your entire army and never have to do it again?



A couple hours? Hardly. A couple hours might see a squad done, if you want it to look like crap. I have 4 differant armies for the three games that I play. I'm slowly working on my 5th.

I find time to play about twice a month, if that. I usually go months at a time without playing.

The time that I do get to play, I don't want ruined by jerks who can't appreciate that other people have other things in life. Thankfully, in my experience you people seem to only exist on the internet.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






djones520 wrote:
A couple hours? Hardly. A couple hours might see a squad done, if you want it to look like crap.


Colored primer spray, few minutes of simple detailing, wash/dip. Yes it looks terrible, but we're talking about people who never paint at all, assemble their models as fast as they can and do a shameful job of it, and then throw them around like a $1 dog toy.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in nz
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




New Zealand

I'd rather fight an army of silver surfers than some 12yr old who maxed his parents CC over xmas and massacred the models in the process of assembling/smothering with paint.

Most of my stuff is unpainted because I lack the time, sometimes the motivation, and the expertise to churn out models to a standard I'm happy with. If that makes you not want to play me, well, lets just say I won't lose any sleep over it.

5000
 
   
Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Australia

 -Loki- wrote:
People have their own time commitments. Making a rule that disadvantages them because they don't conform to your idea of hobby time is extremely disrespectful.


I have to say, I don't think painting falls under some elitist idea of 'hobby time'. I think painting models falls under the most basic and generic definition of the wargaming hobby. I just don't understand why someone would choose a hobby that involves painting, if they don't like painting.

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

 Peregrine wrote:
djones520 wrote:
A couple hours? Hardly. A couple hours might see a squad done, if you want it to look like crap.


Colored primer spray, few minutes of simple detailing, wash/dip. Yes it looks terrible, but we're talking about people who never paint at all, assemble their models as fast as they can and do a shameful job of it, and then throw them around like a $1 dog toy.


Should resist getting dragged into this...

So just to clarify, you would rather play against armies which look like a dog's breakfast than armies which are unpainted, or half (well) painted.

Also, against

 Kaldor wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
People have their own time commitments. Making a rule that disadvantages them because they don't conform to your idea of hobby time is extremely disrespectful.


I have to say, I don't think painting falls under some elitist idea of 'hobby time'. I think painting models falls under the most basic and generic definition of the wargaming hobby. I just don't understand why someone would choose a hobby that involves painting, if they don't like painting.


Because it is what their mates play and they want in on the gaming side, but don't care so much about the painting?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/03 07:40:58


I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 motyak wrote:
So just to clarify, you would rather play against armies which look like a dog's breakfast than armies which are unpainted, or half (well) painted.


Well, the basic spray/detail/wash approach isn't very good, but it's far from "dog's breakfast" like the horror stories of models with 10 layers of caked-on house paint. And yes, I'd rather see an army painted with a minimal level of painting than an army with nothing but bare plastic that will never be painted.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Righto. And you'd slap everyone who hadn't got to painting their stuff yet on the wrists with a penalty (well you aren't doing it, but you support it)

My army (which is about 50/50 painted as of the last month of holidays from uni) deserves to be penalised because I go to uni and work and when I have days off from work/going to uni I'm hammering away at assignments? Doesn't really seem fair or logical.

Normally I like the points you raise, even if you raise them in a slightly brow-beating fashion, but on this I have to strongly disagree with you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 07:52:50


I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 motyak wrote:
My army (which is about 50/50 painted as of the last month of holidays from uni) deserves to be penalised because I go to uni and work and when I have days off from work/going to uni I'm hammering away at assignments? Doesn't really seem fair or logical.


Like I said before, in my experience this just isn't the case with unpainted armies. It isn't people who make a legitimate effort to paint but just can't do it fast enough without sacrificing quality, it's people who don't give a about how their army looks refusing to put even a minimal amount of effort into painting. I have sympathy for the former (and I'd consider a rule with a grace period for newly purchased units), but IMO the latter group should be glad they're allowed to play with unpainted models at all.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Well in my experience it is much more likely the case that they are too busy/when they find spare time they'd rather punch out a game than paint a squad rather than they don't give a f*** about it.

That is why 'in my experience' isn't a valid argument. Or maybe in the sense of implementing a rule like this at a local club, it is the most valid argument. My club would see this as ridiculous because we honestly want our models to be well painted, and they are getting there slowly, we just don't have the time. Your club would see it as a positive for all your reasons.

This is the kind of thing we are never going to reach agreement on, because we come from very different groups of gamers.

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in jp
Furious Raptor





Osaka, Japan

djones520 wrote:
 Glorioski wrote:
If you have time to give to the hobby you have time to paint. It's just a case of how you appreciate that aspect of the hobby.

Maybe it is a UK thing but the majority of groups I have been involved in have had rule on fielding painted models (i.e. if they're not painted they're not allowed on the tabletop). I saw this as a compromise rather than a radical exclusive penalty.


BS.

I work full time, go to school full time, am married, and have three kids all aged 4 years or younger. I have to find time for all of that, my other hobbies, and get the occasional game in. My armies are painted because I pay people to get them done.

The idea of the original OP is just more elitist crap that would just make me get up and walk away from the game, even with my painted armies.


This is the truth, though some of you refuse to accept it.
I have a few painted figures, some halfdone ones simply because I don't have the time anymore.
Once every few months I can squish some time out for a game now and then, a few weeks pass and them maybe I can find an hour to assemble a new model or two.
I would love to sit down and paint but it's impossible for me.
It's easy to the elitists to cry foul if you aren't in the same situation and devote every spare minute of your spare time to GW.

If you don't see unpainted figures only go to places where they aren't allowed, then you'll be happy.

 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

See I don't see it as an 'elitist' kind of thing, they just look for different opportunities in the hobby.

Maybe where some would buy up a whole army and paint it gradually while playing, they buy one squad, and in those moments some would snatch for a quick game, they assemble and paint, and then game with after. It is a perfectly acceptable way to go about it.

And if their entire club is like this, and they get onto new players early with this mentality, rule like this could have a place (probably modified, but yes, a place) without damaging the uptake of new players (new players they want mind you, just like in a laid back club [not saying these guys aren't laid back] may not want a TFG in their midst, they may not want grey hordes)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/03 08:10:45


I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 motyak wrote:
Or maybe in the sense of implementing a rule like this at a local club, it is the most valid argument. My club would see this as ridiculous because we honestly want our models to be well painted, and they are getting there slowly, we just don't have the time. Your club would see it as a positive for all your reasons.


Exactly. I wouldn't try to impose it as a universal rule for every 40k player everywhere in the world, but where I play I would support it 100%.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
 
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