Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ailaros wrote:
So without needing to take vendettas, or without needing to take allies, with just legal guard units, how do you take down this kind of heavy stuff? I've always been a big believer in boys over toys, but the fact that I'm getting beaten up by armies that either literally or virtually min/max troops so they can get more toys is really depressing to me.

I advocate Manticores or Basilisks, depending on how much you need AP3. They won't help against flyers, but they'll do quite well against heavy vehicles. A single Manticore hit will penetrate a vehicle with AV13 sides 75% of the time. Against vehicles with lesser side armor, like Predators or Vindicators, penetration is nearly guaranteed. If these lack survivability for some reason, Demolishers are the next best thing, though I think they are not very efficient for Imperial Guard armies overall.

The other option I've seen for this role is 5-man Stormtrooper suicide squads with dual meltaguns.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Have you thought about trying the Scout ones? Hoping for a T2 outflank to hit side armor where applicable might not be a bad idea.

This is a terrible idea. For 150 points you get a squad of three with LCs, compared to 130 for an outflanking Vendetta with three TL LCs, better armor, only hit on 6s, transport capacity, and flyer mobility. It's usually a bad sign when the glass cannon unit has much less firepower than a flying tank that costs fewer points.

And of course armored Sentinels are garbage. Way too expensive, way too little firepower. If your opponents are bringing minimum-troops lists to wipe you off the table with overwhelming firepower you're not going to counter that effectively by bringing overpriced junk.

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Have you thought about trying the Scout ones? Hoping for a T2 outflank to hit side armor where applicable might not be a bad idea.

This is a terrible idea. For 150 points you get a squad of three with LCs, compared to 130 for an outflanking Vendetta with three TL LCs, better armor, only hit on 6s, transport capacity, and flyer mobility. It's usually a bad sign when the glass cannon unit has much less firepower than a flying tank that costs fewer points.

Vendettas can't outflank. I agree that they're generally far better than Scout Sentinels, though (how is this even in question?)

So since Ailaros has asked us to come up with solutions not based on Vendettas, can we brainstorm and think of solutions not based on Vendettas.

 Ailaros wrote:


So without needing to take vendettas, or without needing to take allies, with just legal guard units, how do you take down this kind of heavy stuff? I've always been a big believer in boys over toys, but the fact that I'm getting beaten up by armies that either literally or virtually min/max troops so they can get more toys is really depressing to me.

I like the idea of sentinels outflanking, but as you said they are too unreliable. I'd give armored sentinels a go and see how it turns out.

Since my posts here keep getting deleted even when they're on-topic and relevant, I'm going to leave this with my last words on the subject:

The problem is unsolveable.

OP, you are at a fundamental strategic disadvantage in this situation. You play troops-heavy lists that include lots of low-firepower units (conscripts, combined infantry squads, etc) while your opponents bring laughably minimal troops and maximum firepower. In theory you should be able to kill their pathetic scoring units and win on objectives, especially in 6th now that vehicles can't even contest objectives, but this obviously isn't true and maximum firepower is too much of an advantage for your scoring units to overcome. In addition to this, your situation is made worse by the fact that these all-firepower lists contain widely varying types of spammed units, ensuring that a focus on defeating one cripples you against the other.

So, it's very simple: your fundamental strategy denies you enough space to take sufficient firepower to handle all possible opponents simultaneously. You have three choices:

1) Focus entirely on scoring units. This will be the most boring game ever, as you do little more than pull off casualties until the game ends and hope that on the final turn your opponent has failed to kill enough of your army to get you off the objectives. You will have little or no fun, and get more and more frustrated until you give up.

2) Make fundamental changes to your army, including both strategy and your list of "acceptable" units. The only options that can solve your problem are denied by your self-imposed limits, so your only hope is to remove those limits. You will need to use units that you currently reject, and you will need to redefine your army concept to focus on firepower with troops (especially low-firepower troops) playing a much more limited role.

3) Accept that the problem can not be solved within your self-imposed limits, and inform your opponents that you will no longer be playing IG against the lists in question. And then carry out that threat, even if it means never playing IG again.


Which one of these three options you choose is up to you, but the miracle solution you are hoping for does not exist.

I think rough rides might be a partial solution, at least to high toughness foot troops and high AV vehicles. With some meltabombs and shotguns along with the hunting lances, they should be able to put the hurt on units who get too close to your lines or vehicles. I would imagine they could do interesting things to dreads and monstrous creatures as well.

That leaves fliers and as a Sisters player, I'm in the same boat you are. I would like to play a pure sisters force, but those Tyranid fliers stomp me pretty hard. I'd rather not ally, so I'm left scratching my head.

I know you have a general distaste for the autocannons, but they might be the thing you need against the fliers. Enough shots to get a hit or two, which might down the beast and then you can pour on the lascannon fire.

I run a similar list to you Ailaros. In fact, you could say that some of it was inspired by your lists.

I have been trying out three demolishers for my heavy support. They can deal with most targets and push down a flank quite well. I either use them as cover for some advancing troops or put a conscript screen in front of them. They are not useful against fliers but are quite cheap with just hull flamers. Followed up by stormtrooper drops I can actually make a decent incursion into the enemies half.

The one problem I am having though is knowing when to advance the platoons. I find I always want to just gunline with the lascannons.

Well if night fighting is giving you some trouble what about putting some search lights on your scout sentinels, scouting up the board turn 1, and lighting a few things up for the rest of your army. Also I understand the fragility of HWSs, but if you just relentlessly spam them in addition to your blob heavy weapons you should in theory be able to overwhelm regardless of losses.

Here are a few experimental ideas I've been playing with.

Have you tried foot vets and demo spam ? for 100 pts you get 10 guards with bs4 10 metla bombs and a demo charge.
That will kill pretty much anything short of a flyer.
It's far from perfect, but if you use a mix of vet squads with demo and platoons, it could work.

It's foot guard, no forgeworld, no vendetta, and still pretty nasty.

And people, READ the op, and respect the subject. God emperor be saved, Pereguine STHAP derailing every thread for feth sake. /rant

I never understood why you took the Al'Raheim platoon out of your army. A large contingent of troops with heavy weapons (either melta or plasma) that comes in the opponent's backfield. It provides a (semi) durable scoring unit that gains the initiative the turn it arrives. It has its pick of dangerous targets to choose from and (on average) should destroy it. Then, once that is done, the opponent has to deal with the threat or ignore it at their own peril, probably giving up line breaker and an objective. The unit obviously has problems (Reserve rolls are still random, there's a 1/3 chance to get the wrong side) but I believe the merits of the unit bear consideration in this circumstance. Even if it only aids in the solving of two problems listed in the original post (MCs and Hard Armor).

I also remember this unit being paired with an Astropath, giving you a reroll if you managed to roll the wrong side.

As for fliers, I remember in an early Battle Report in your series that you used a Primaris Psyker with Living Lightning. It glanced a flier to death. Not the most reliable method but, given its price point, it certainly is an option.

None of the units I mentioned above have the power to cost ratio of a vendetta, but they're possibilities. And in the end I think it's a bit more fruitful to look at those less than optimized possibilities than arguing the parameters of the discussion.

For your flyer problems, have you tried Hydras ?
The big problem with hydras if mixed into your usual lists would be the fact that they will be the only vehicles, and will get pummled early on.

Maybe some Hydras in reserve ? I know vs cronair this works well. I've never seen anyone but me field them, and I've only done so a couple of times.

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Have you thought about trying the Scout ones? Hoping for a T2 outflank to hit side armor where applicable might not be a bad idea.

This is a terrible idea. For 150 points you get a squad of three with LCs, compared to 130 for an outflanking Vendetta with three TL LCs, better armor, only hit on 6s, transport capacity, and flyer mobility. It's usually a bad sign when the glass cannon unit has much less firepower than a flying tank that costs fewer points.

And of course armored Sentinels are garbage. Way too expensive, way too little firepower. If your opponents are bringing minimum-troops lists to wipe you off the table with overwhelming firepower you're not going to counter that effectively by bringing overpriced junk.

Keeping On topic the OP has said no to Vendettas, so lets try some ideas as such. Stop your needless bickering, whining and complaining and bring something useful or better yet just stay out of it.

If we ignore the flyer aspect for the most part you could try.

an ADL w/ either Q-Gun or Las. Possibly 2x Manticore for lucky vehicle popping or HP stripping.

I concur with gpfunk.

From what I remember 4 pages ago in the OP it seemed like AV13-14 and fliers were the main problems.

For AV13-14 I would try:
Melta Storm troops, since enemy troops are not really the problem.
Al'Raheim + Astropath, and I would put 2 melta special weapons squads or 1 melta SWS and 1 flamer SWS.
Rough Riders, give them melta and with a 12" move could be nice if you get some cover on your empty tables.
Devil Dog with multi melta, fast tank should be able to get both shots off on your first turn (albiet not in 2d6 range).
Scout Sentinels w/ lascannons

For Flyers:
Squad of 2 Hydras with an aegis. (Dont need a quad gun) Put them in a corner like you do normally with vehicles so they will always be forced to shoot at the front arc. I'm fairly new so forgive me if i'm wrong but the fact that they can see the top of the tank is irelevant. Only barrage has rules for that. If the flier is close enough to see more than 75% of the front facing to negate the cover of your hydra than he probably can't shoot you as I think they can only shoot 45 degrees down. (I will be looking this up again when I get home to be sure)

I say you don't need the quad gun because the gun alone is not enough for fliers and hydras and a quad gun is too much point wise. Sides, Don't forget that hydras can target skimmers and flying Mcs just fine and also ignore all jink saves even on bikes and jet bikes even if you hit on 6's.

TLDR:
Hydras, Al'Rahame and melta storm troopers.

Rough Riders do not strike me as a terribly serious anti-tank solution. They are extremely vulnerable to being shot by bolters (or gauss flyers, or pulse rifles, etc.) and dying. In 5th edition Rough Riders were underrated because many did not realize their potential as a Reserves-based counterassault unit (though even still they were't great), but now that you cannot charge when entering the table from Reserves I see little merit in fielding them.

To put it another way, if your opponent can't kill ten Guardsmen prior to them charging, you were probably going to win the game anyway...

Manticores or Basilisks (depending on other factors) still strike me as the best solutions on offer here-- perhaps coupled with a fortification (I tend to prefer the Bastion to the Aegis Defense Line), perhaps not.

 portugus wrote:
If the flier is close enough to see more than 75% of the front facing to negate the cover of your hydra than he probably can't shoot you as I think they can only shoot 45 degrees down. (I will be looking this up again when I get home to be sure)

It's 22.5 degrees down, but you bring up an important point that can't be overstated: fliers have a dead zone where they can't shoot hull-mounted weapons. Al'rahem would let you get close to the enemy table edge, forcing the enemy to either overshoot you or end up in a really awkward angle with his/her fliers.

This a little off-topic, but if you can't crush your enemies strengths then you must exploit their weakness (limited troops #s)

What about ignoring the fliers and high AV and just concentrate indirect fire onto their troops/transports. With those gone the enemy looses.

Colossus are good for wiping scoring troops off the board, and you can use your melta stormies to pop their transports.

Or if that's not an option what about Lascannon Sentinels w/HK MIssle or ML w/HK Missle S.Sentinels<(costs the same as an Armoured Sentinel with MtLsr).

For that matter what about HK MIssles on all the vehicles you possess

The rough riders are not for charging, just giving melta guns a 12" move. I shall not use my rough riders for charging until they get a little better.

Yeah I like Gibblet's idea for HKs on sentinels. Put HKs on the scout sentinels so they can actually use the walker rules letting them fire more than one weapon. Plus with BS3 you would really need the extra shots when they come on and than die.

 portugus wrote:
The rough riders are not for charging, just giving melta guns a 12" move. I shall not use my rough riders for charging until they get a little better.

Yeah I like Gibblet's idea for HKs on sentinels. Put HKs on the scout sentinels so they can actually use the walker rules letting them fire more than one weapon. Plus with BS3 you would really need the extra shots when they come on and than die.

I feel if you are giving your RR anything BUT Hunting Lances, you're wasting them. Another BS 3 guardsman with a meltagun?
I'd rather give it to a PCS or a PIS.

I would say that scout sentinels are a little more durable than heavy weapon squadrons, if not by much. Maybe try taking three squads of three scout sentinels, so at least one squadron shows up where you need it to.

Although I can tell you, a Leman Russ has never served me wrong whenever I've fielded it. Still, the problem is that one russ won't get very far when your opponent has brought some anti-tank. If you want the firepower to last, the standard rule of bring three applies.

I'm starting to think you need one or the other: a massive horde or massive firepower. I'd try maxing lascannon HWS and putting lascannons in every infantry squad, forego conscripts entirely, take a few meltaside stormies, and maybe throw in a LRBT here or there and hope for a devastating turn 1 alpha strike. I mean, if you saturate the board with enough HWTs, they won't be able to kill them all simply because there are too many MSU everywhere.

I hear you, I'm just trying to give the OP some ideas to deal with AV13-14. The only reason I suggested it was because 12" move is a lot better than 6" and they are still fleet IIRC. This is all to get them from that sparse bit of cover to the other sparse bit on the tables OP plays on.

haha I'm not saying they are the next vendetta or anything just a new light most people probably havn't seen. Sides that PCS running at those 4 punishers in the OP is going to die before getting there....anyway I'll stick with my first post for melta storm troops and a hydra squad behind an aegis. (with no quad gun to save some points)

Also from the last few battle reports I read of OP all his PIS have melta guns and it isn't working for him.

I'd also not be so quick to discount the Hydra. I know it took a hit in 6th.
I also know in 5th, it was good not only for what it did, but because my opponent
knew what it could do as well. you might use it to set up better fire lanes or board
control to a point. Not to mention, they'll waste time and shots on it.

And I'm not sure if your still use 10 man Stormtrooper squads, but I'd keep them
short, sweet and to the point. Loose the flamers and do 2 Plasma squads, 1 melta squad
and both 5 man min-max squads.

If all your opponents are tending towards specialized armies emphasizing firepower over the ability to field sufficient scoring units, and you're fielding a generalist all-comers list, you're going to be at an inherent disadvantage.

It seems to me that if you wish to prevail in a metagame such as this, you're going to need to specialize your own list in turn. A dedicated IG gunline would probably handle the previous armies pretty well at the expense of being about as enjoyable to play as watching paint dry. Same with massive blobs of guardmen who can't be killed fast enough. If you refuse to use Vendettas or Allies or Forgeworld, I don't see many other options if winning is your objective.

Hospy wrote:
A dedicated IG gunline would probably handle the previous armies pretty well at the expense of being about as enjoyable to play as watching paint dry.

Gunlines are fun.

Just in a different way.

Kingsley wrote:I advocate Manticores or Basilisks, depending on how much you need AP3

So, I certainly have been thinking about this more for the necron part of the problem. One pen is all it takes to throw off the shielding, and with barrage they don't get the cover saves, and with open-topped, I even have a decent chance to kill them outright.

It has also made me start to more seriously consider the battlecannon, but that's both more expensive, and doesn't get to ignore these night-fighty problems in the same way. Something I've started considering, though, is a bolter boat LRBT. That way there are heavy bolters to handle fliers, monstrous creatures and terminators through volume of fire, while it can always switch into splat cannon mode on those rare times it will be useful against infantry (people at my gaming store know how to displace), and for throwing some HP off of heavier vehicles. Not ideal, but at least it's reasonably cheap.

Trickstick wrote:I have been trying out three demolishers for my heavy support.

How has the range problem been treating you? I agree that I like the demolisher for anti-vehicle work, but it seems like it's going to do most other stuff the same as a russ, but more expensive, and more slowly. I used a punisher at a local tournament recently, and when you wind up with vanguard strike, it might take awhile for the main gun to be in range.

Kingsley wrote:The other option I've seen for this role is 5-man Stormtrooper suicide squads with dual meltaguns.

Yeah, I love my stormies and will very likely continue to take them. The problem is that their reliability leaves something to be desired.

Trickstick wrote:The one problem I am having though is knowing when to advance the platoons. I find I always want to just gunline with the lascannons.

Yeah, you and me both.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Well if night fighting is giving you some trouble what about putting some search lights on your scout sentinels, scouting up the board turn 1, and lighting a few things up for the rest of your army.

I did exactly this in my last game. The problem is that you've still got to hit to use the searchlights...

In any case, it brought the save of one unit down from 2+ cover to 4+ cover, which meant I was able to get first blood, but it still seems kind of shaky.

portugus wrote:Yeah I like Gibblet's idea for HKs on sentinels. Put HKs on the scout sentinels so they can actually use the walker rules letting them fire more than one weapon. Plus with BS3 you would really need the extra shots when they come on and than die.

That's actually kind of an interesting idea. With 2 or 3 in a squad with lascannons and HKs, they've got a pretty darn good chance of putting the hurt on SOMETHING the turn they arrive. Plus, I like the shock factor.

I wonder if it would be worth it for the armored variety.

mayfist wrote:Have you tried foot vets and demo spam ? for 100 pts you get 10 guards with bs4 10 metla bombs and a demo charge.

... because you can use meltabombs against monstrous creatures now... Hmm...

The problem I have, though, is that vehicles are going to outrange the vets. Very likely it's going to be me running out and not making it into assault and then the vets getting gunned down the turn after.

mayfist wrote:For your flyer problems, have you tried Hydras ?

Yes, but they don't handle anything but fliers very well. When we had a DE player at my store, I would bring them because I have a personal grudge against DE skimmer spam, but now that he plays grey knights, I don't see much purpose.

gpfunk wrote:I never understood why you took the Al'Raheim platoon out of your army.

My opponents figured him out.

When al'rahem shows up late, and then runs in off the side of the board with no easy, convenient targets and then just gets shot up the next turn, you really wonder why you wasted all of those points on him. Catches new players or people who haven't seen it before off-guard, but against those who know how to handle it, al'rahem tends to do little more than break up force cohesion.

gpfunk wrote:As for fliers, I remember in an early Battle Report in your series that you used a Primaris Psyker with Living Lightning. It glanced a flier to death. Not the most reliable method but, given its price point, it certainly is an option.

I suppose this would also help against monstrous creatures as well.

I guess if my opponent doesn't bring fliers or monstrous creatures, I could always fish for crush or OM on the TK tree.

thedarksaint wrote:I think rough rides might be a partial solution, at least to high toughness foot troops and high AV vehicles.

portugus wrote:The rough riders are not for charging, just giving melta guns a 12" move. I shall not use my rough riders for charging until they get a little better.

... this is actually an interesting solution. 75 points for 2x melta riders compared to 65 points for 3x melta SWS. You get more melta for cheaper with the SWS, but I feel like I scarcely ever got to shoot the SWSs, much less in melta range. With a 24" reach, I just might be able to pull it off. Plus, free krak grenades for 2+/5++MCs and vehicles.

If I had some rough rider models handy, I'd give this a try soon, but as I don't, I'll have to think about it some more before I go to the bother of making models.

Gibblets wrote:This a little off-topic, but if you can't crush your enemies strengths then you must exploit their weakness (limited troops #s)

What about ignoring the fliers and high AV and just concentrate indirect fire onto their troops/transports. With those gone the enemy looses.

So, this has been my thesis for awhile now, but I'm getting concerned because I'm starting to see it fail.

Firstly, only half of the missions are multiple objectives based. Emperor's Will, Relic, and Purge missions give you few benefits for having extra scoring units. If the core of my strategy is only properly going to work on half the games, I just might be in trouble.

Secondly, my opponents have been winning with toys. They're taking high-firepower tough-to-kill units that are capable of shutting down the units that really excel at killing scoring units before they can properly kill off all the scoring units. Plus, consider that we're sometimes talking about scoring units in night scythes, arks, and vendettas, and it can be pretty challenging to be able to even attack the scoring units in the first place. Often I have to wait until after they're de-meched before I can engage them, but by that time, my opponent's stuff may well have killed off my anti-scoring-unit units.

Put another way, I've been doubling down on scoring units, and as of late I've been getting beaten by people who min/max theirs. I find this fact unfortunate.

Really? Autocannons.

Spam those suckers.

Spam them like rice on bread.

Grasping for 6's to glance 4/5HP necron vehicles and predators hardly seems the way to go, and there's not enough volume of fire for things like monstrous creatures (especially when you consider likely concentration issues), and they'll never hurt russes.

Basically the only thing that autocannon spam will handle well here is anti-flier, and even then, not fliers that are AV12.

Yeah, I love my stormies and will very likely continue to take them. The problem is that their reliability leaves something to be desired.

Yup. Last game I brought them against Space Wolves and although they ended up landing where they were needed (thanks to the reroll) I still ended up flubbing on the penetration table and instead of killing Bjorn and a landraider, I ripped off two weapons from two vehicles. Next turn the stormies were horribly butchered.

I am slowly starting to realize that I need to bring 2-3 times more killing power than I ever anticipate as I usually end up scattering too far, missing with both melta guns or not doing enough damage on the damage chart. With guard you don't get too many chances to screw up and win.

 Ailaros wrote:

Trickstick wrote:I have been trying out three demolishers for my heavy support.

How has the range problem been treating you? I agree that I like the demolisher for anti-vehicle work, but it seems like it's going to do most other stuff the same as a russ, but more expensive, and more slowly. I used a punisher at a local tournament recently, and when you wind up with vanguard strike, it might take awhile for the main gun to be in range.

I don't find the range too much of an issue, although it does have to be taken into consideration. 24" doesn't make it useless, it just means it cannot react as well to the situation.

I have a couple of methods of applying them, depending on opponent and mission/setup. The first is as a linebreaker, as they are in the fluff. Aim three of them at the right point of the enemy line and let them off the leash. You just have to set a reasonable goal for them. On the rare occasion they are out of range first turn they can pop smoke, which is something I rarely do with other vehicles.

The other method that I use is reserving all three. This helps greatly against drop pods and fast assault armies, as they can come on exactly where they are needed. I just wish I could buy a comms relay without an aegis, as rerolling both passes and fails can be very nice. Sometimes you just want to delay your reserves a turn.

Perhaps you need to try out more sentinels? From the batreps I've seen it looks like you've only got that one squad of three. What if you min-max your stormtrooper units, did some other point drops, and added another unit or 2?

Also, yeah BS3 to hit with search lights isn't the greatest, but we are only talking one unit here. With more you increase those chances for sure. If it works, I could see this becoming a fun new theme to your list: having up to 9 scout sentinels with LCs. The nice thing too is if there isn't night fighting you can decided to have most of them outflank (if I'm not mistaken you roll night fighting before deployment?).

Yeah, scout sentinels are flexible that way. I like sentinels too, but the idea of buying that many kind of makes me wince. If I buy a russ, I can always swap out the turret, and if I buy chimeras, they can be chimeras, hellhounds, basilisks, hydras, or deathstrikes, etc, depending on my mood. Sentinels are sentinels, though. If I'm not feeling in the mood for them in the future, then they're just going to gather dust.

It's really my problem with vehicles in general. I know I'm always going to need a huge pile of guardsmen with lasguns, and I've been running meltaguns as the special weapon for two editions now (and it doesn't seem likely to change). I have a hard time committing to vehicles, though - just one of the reasons I don't own many.

As for the demolisher, I guess I'm still a touch leery. I mean, I'm going to be going up against warscythe barges which are going to be able to hit the demolishers before the demolishers get to hit the barges. The same is going to be true for shunting/flying dreadknights, and against vehicles with multimelta. And I'm going to have to expose myself to death rays and vendettas and sternguard.

I don't traditionally see the short range of the demolisher as a problem, but now that they're only moving 6", with no flat-out, and given the kinds of things I've been up against, demolishers seem awfully... counterable.