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Title really says it all. Can assault squads from the "vanilla" SM codex be taken, designed, and implemented in a way that is actually useful to a competitive army?

Some possibilities that I've been toying with using are Vulkan marines, running them with two flamers? maybe Th? Or running them in a Kantor mech marine list where they can possibly benefit from the +1 attack bubble?


I know they aren't likely to ever be a linebreaker unit like terms are, but can they be useful? I'd love to hear dakka's thoughts

If they had one more attack base and a slight point drop, they'd be swell.

As they are now... >.>

I guess you could use them running behind your Rhinos to be an assault unit. The problem is they don't have the attacks/options to be worth it.

/shrug.

They can be useful in harassment and denial roles

Example: 5 man squad, Sgt w/ melta bombs (105pts)

So, cheap, and very mobile. Hug cover and use them as a threat, more than a direct attack.

I find that the enemy will generally waste a disproportionate amount of firepower trying to kill this group, but if you're smart with you're cover usage you should be fine.

On top of that, they will move away from this unit, and you can use it to herd them into the line of fire of your other units.

Also, if they get the chance they can be pretty devestating to a tank on the charge, especially if they can get off their hammer of wrath attacks.

you can also throw that melta bomb, or use it as insurance if you have to take out a monstrous creature in conjunction with the Hammer attacks

The main thing to remember is to use them as harrasment / denial, don't try to storm a gunline or out cc another unit.

You can't throw Melta Bombs.

Crazyterran wrote:
You can't throw Melta Bombs.

Doh, you are correct sir :(

Oh well, still useful in a pinch, but if you leave it at home it makes the unit even cheaper at 100pts, which is definitely "throw away distraction" territory

Yea... I (as a BA) can justify them for the objective grabbing and deepstriking melta.

I guess my answer is take a BA librarian with a JP + RAS and its possible.

 hazal wrote:
Yea... I (as a BA) can justify them for the objective grabbing and deepstriking melta.

I guess my answer is take a BA librarian with a JP + RAS and its possible.

He as asking for Vanilla marines, but sure ally them in ^^

That's prolly the best way.

Thinking on it, it seems like the logical way.

125 points extra for scoring, 1d6 scatter, rerolls to entry, and a divination librarian.

Assault marines are passable....for Blood Angels,

It takes Furious charge, FnP, better deepstrike or cheaper fast transports, the ability to score and melta-guns to get them to a passable level. Even with all those boons, they still aren't exactly the best troops around. It is my opinion, and experience with vanilla marines that ASM are nearly worthless.

If you want a combat unit, go with assault terminators.
If you want a fast unit, try land speeder, bikes, drop podding sternguard...etc.
If you want a fast melee unit....i dunno, Land Raider up the terminators? This isn't really the codex for fast melee units.

I know they look cool and all, but there is no number of buffs available in the codex to make them a viable threat, they just don't have the attacks/hitting power and survivability for their points. I've run them with a chaplain, I've run them close to Pedro for his +1 attack aura, I've run them near Captain Sumatris (IA volume 9) for his +1WS aura. Hell, I've even run them with a chaplain AND Pedro, nothing makes these guys worth the points compared to terminators.

No, not the vanilla assault marines.

For 600pts though, you can ally in a Blood Angels Libby, 2x10 man <Troops> assault squads, and a Sanguinary Priest. Then you just run them around in their bubble of FNP and FC.

But vanilla guys, you'll have to use Vanguard vets with a homer and heroic charge to get any use out of assault marines.

They are a good unit when they are scoring, IE: BAs.

Otherwise they are fairly meh, especially since they compete with Bikes and Speeders are a FoC slot.

As they are, assault marines are fairly weak as assault units go. they will suffer horribly if you use them to spearhead attacks. That said, they can make a useful counter assault unit if the enemy is locked in combat. their range, and HoW attacks can go a long way.
They also have the speed to get into the enemies back field reliably if they start on the board, and while they might not be the greatest close combat troops, they are certainly more than a match for units that are generally left to hold back field objectives, and since they come with krak grenades, can threaten most tanks.

They suffer mostly because there are better FA choices, and they dont really have the volume of attacks, or wargear options to go toe to toe with tough units, those units are the ones you use terminators, or massed fire to take down.

Vanguard veterans, on the other hand, are really quite nasty

Maybe take an allied detachment of BA?
They make for reasonably cheap harassment and can come out of nowhere. I'd be more inclined to be using them to tie up or threaten vulnerable small or shooting units. Keeping them safe till they can bother the long fangs without your opponent catching on is the trick. Cheap seems like the way to go for that. I'd always be happier with scoring jumpers though.

The basic assault marines have always been good. when you start upgrading them to be a strong CC unit you will most likely fail as that's not their job.

Its better to give little to no upgrades and use them as a counter assault or a simple annoyance. I have won plenty of games with them.

They will always have good stats as they are marines. They have good mobility. they ARE NOT EXPENSIVE. what is there not to like?

They are good, but not overpowered. Balanced, even. I like a 5 man squad, with a flamer and a power sword; possibly meltabombs. Often lead by a chaplain with only a jump pack. Start on the board, never deep strike.

You are not as good as anyone's assault units. But you are better then their troops or HS picks (for the most part). And you have the mobility to get to them. Keep out of LOS and behind cover, find something weaker then you, and kill it. Having the chaplain boosts the squad from harassment unit to something with real teeth, and opens up your range of targets. But you are still just a small squad of guys with a 3+, so it's not that hard to kill you. Be careful.

Keeping them back as a countercharge unit also works well.

I find that building balanced lists, with a little something from every slot of the FOC, is not only fluffily and fun, but works. I will admit that assault marines are not my first pick from the FA slot, but I do enjoy having them on the field periodically. The only times they have failed spectacularly I can put the blame on myself, not them. But I learn, and don't deep strike them into kill zones any more. IMHO, every vanilla marine player should have a stick of 5 on their shelf, and take them out from time to time. Even if they are a little lack-luster on the tabletop compared to their peers, they are an important part of the fluff and the army.

Yes (to the original question),
Not played SMarines for a few years. But when I did I employed one or two units of 5. One kitted out with a flamer and power fist (because I had an old metal model) and unit just with powersword and storm shield.

The opponent I played at the time tended to go for more balanced forces of IG, Tau, Nids and rarely played marines so they didn't have that many AP2/3 weapons. Since the flamer was not standard in the assault model pack the first time they saw it they got the surprise of their lives.

I went with the two units of 5 to allow me to deep strike and not lose too much if it went wrong.

Now playing CSM and raptors are a go to unit; 8 - 10 strong and starting on the board; sorely tempted to take another 5 marine unit after reading the points above . As mentioned above, they are not over powerful, but with the fear rule, two meltaguns, plasmapistol and a power weapon on the leader + mark of Nurgle; they can take on most - even large - units. Okay you stay away from teminators and nobz but that what lascannons are for.

My friend plays BA and his assaulty troops routinely Deep Strike in and pop a juicy tank with melta pistols.

very annoying and supremely effective. He only firleds them in sqauds fo 5 but will use 2 or 3 in any given army list.

i've not yet found an effective counter other than waiting with crossfires setup, but even then i can only get revenge for the tank he's just killed.

I'm building a Hestan-based army. I'm shoving him and a squad of 5 ASM in a Razorback. I get the Thunder Hammer from it, so it's a slight improvement over a Tac squad choice. Wish it was troops, but work with what ya got.

They are good for tarpitting. I must admit to using them with Captain Korvydae from IA who makes them scoring. Adding Shrike to this makes them pretty worthwhile but they do seem to underperform a lot.

Can they ever be good?

As already said, at what?

At assault? No. Anything that's soft enough to be beaten up by assault marines could be beaten up by anything else, including bike squads (which could be troops).

At shooting? They get flamers which aren't cheap, or plasma pistols, which are even more expensive. Bikes can carry plasma guns, and are relentless.

Land Speeders or Stormtalon beat them on speed, and of course speed is only of value if it allows you to deliver something worthwhile. I'll take krak missiles or a lascannon platform over a couple of flamers any day.

I tend to use them more in a counter attack/support role. I keep them in my deployment behind cover and jump to whereever they are needed when my opponent gets close to my lines. I normally equip the sgt with a powerfist and stormshield, to deal with challenges, and go basic equipment with the rest. Since my opponents like to go after my sternguard, I often charge the assault marines into the melee, and the two squads are normally more than enough to overwhelm most assault units.

If you take tyberus and korvydae then they become interesting. Scoring and furious charge plus rage after winning one assault gets pretty tempting. The only problem is that between those 2 characters and the scout squad korvydae makes you take you're looking at almost 500 points before you even start to build your list.

I've seen it posted numerous times in here, but I'm gonna repeat it anyways: Take some allied Blood Angel assault marines with a librarian. In a unit of 10 you can take 2 special weapons. Give the Librarian unleash rage from the codex and they get furious charge. Also, since they're troops, they're a scoring unit.

Good thread OP.

In 5th i took a list that played no elites, ie deliberately avoided terminators. The logical alternative was AMs.

I took 10 w TH and 2 PP, teamed up with Relic Artificer PP Captain. The AMs were 250 pts.

They were very good. Three PPs were good and their CC was solid. Unit would prob need to be adapted slightly for 6th, ie avoid 2+ opponents where possible and take LC SGT, but i would argue these guys can deliver a good capability if you have fair expectations for them.

Want really nasty, and dont want terminators, you could really tool these guys up. Ie JP libby w buffs, forcedome, might, quickening alongside nullzone. Im less a chappy fan however he would buff the charge, which HoW encourages. Bulk of combat power will come from SGT and ICs, and close range shooting.

Will i tke them again? Without doubt.

BA assault squads have the big advantage of being scoring units and melta capability.

However, I can see how it would be useful for the vanilla marines to have some counter assault punch, just as how I use my BA assault teams now. I don't actually "assault" many lines anymore without a few turns of shooting.

BA ASM also deep strike more accurately, so that if you want to drop 10 guys with 2 flamers, led by a Sergeant with 2 hand flamers, you are way more likely to land them where you want them.

Or you can rip off their jump packs, stuff them in a drop pod, drop them right on the 1" line, and combat squad out of the pod, and hit a unit with 2 flamers, 2 hand flamers, 2 thrown frag grenades, and 5 bolt pistols, knowing that he has to Disordered Charge to assault both units.

I always forget about the frag grenades

you run a 10 man squad with shirke and infiltrate them and then another 1 or 2 smaller squads just to be causing awesome havok, for me they only work if you have a super mobile army and bigger threats then them.

Unfortunately, shrike's claws took a kick in the nuts.

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, shrike's claws took a kick in the nuts.

They are still Rending, which actually matters now.