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One of the easiest ways for an meq army to lose is to have a turn of cold armor saves. To make this happen, force saves. Hence, flashlights

Or you can just shoot a lot of pie plates

Anything that forces saves in general.

Flashlights

It's probably widely-acknowledged that C:SM assault marines are one of the worst jump pack infantry options in the game. However, I still bring 10 of those models with me wherever I go, because folks don't tend to expect a C:SM player to bring assault troops. Then I use them with a naked Chaplain for the most dickish of cockblock moves ever: mostly as a QRF unit to help out with any squad that is stuck in CC for those lovely HoW attacks and Chaplain's reroll to hit etc during the charge.

They're not the best, but when used well, nobody expects the Spanish Space Marine Inquisition!

They really are only bad because Speeders are so much better.

If Assault Marines in the vanilla codex could take Meltaguns, and got back the option for meltabombs, they would be a viable alternative to speeders.

Well other than the fact that the multimelta is a much better gun than the regular meltagun.

Arent Assault marines a good counter assault unit?

It really depends on what they are counter assaulting.

Martel732 wrote:
Well other than the fact that the multimelta is a much better gun than the regular meltagun.

I think "much" better is an exaggeration, although I see where you're coming from.
If the assault marines could get 2 melta-guns and a combi-melta then they would be quite nice indeed.

They're poor counter assault units because frankly they're too expensive to just be sitting around waiting. Also any dedicated CC unit will tear them a new one even if the assault marines actually assault.

But they can take out tanks with meltabombs and thunder hammers.

 Tomten wrote:
But they can take out tanks with meltabombs and thunder hammers.

can't other dedicated CC units do this also?

I'm not super familiar with fast assault units from other armies, which ones are better than assault marines and why? (just out of curiosity)

But why do we even talk about assault marines if they are so bad?


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There are better fast attack choices

 Lord PoPo wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
But they can take out tanks with meltabombs and thunder hammers.

can't other dedicated CC units do this also?

I'm not super familiar with fast assault units from other armies, which ones are better than assault marines and why? (just out of curiosity)

BA assault marines are better because they can buy Meltaguns and can get FnP and FC for quite cheap. But the biggest reason is they are Troops.

Aside from that, there really arn't any melee orientated jump pack units that are better then Assault Marines. There are better shooty choices that have Jump Packs.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Aside from that, there really arn't any melee orientated jump pack units that are better then Assault Marines. There are better shooty choices that have Jump Packs.

Oh? aren't there like.. hellions or something that are better? (and this is the point at which i realize i really need to stop playing against MEQ players )

Hellions are super squishy, like all DE. I don't think any competitive DE lists ever ran Hellions seriously.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well other than the fact that the multimelta is a much better gun than the regular meltagun.

I think "much" better is an exaggeration, although I see where you're coming from.
If the assault marines could get 2 melta-guns and a combi-melta then they would be quite nice indeed.

They're poor counter assault units because frankly they're too expensive to just be sitting around waiting. Also any dedicated CC unit will tear them a new one even if the assault marines actually assault.

I find that getting within 6" of a target usually gets my assault marines counter charged easily. I love the multimelta because a range of 24" opens up so many engagement possibilites. Especially on a mobile platform like a bike or land speeder.


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I think that Storm Boyz might be more cost effective than jump marines.


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I primarily use my BA jumpers as counter attack now. However, as one poster said, they can quickly go score, whereas the smurf assault troops can't do that.


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 Tomten wrote:
But they can take out tanks with meltabombs and thunder hammers.

The problem is using these weapons is often a suicide mission. Tanks are better eliminated with lascannons and multimeltas.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Lord PoPo wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
But they can take out tanks with meltabombs and thunder hammers.

can't other dedicated CC units do this also?

I'm not super familiar with fast assault units from other armies, which ones are better than assault marines and why? (just out of curiosity)

BA assault marines are better because they can buy Meltaguns and can get FnP and FC for quite cheap. But the biggest reason is they are Troops.

Aside from that, there really arn't any melee orientated jump pack units that are better then Assault Marines. There are better shooty choices that have Jump Packs.

So you mean that DC are not a good cc orientated unit?

DC have some serious problems, imo.

A) They must charge to be effective

B) There must be a target worthy of such a charge

C) They never score

D) They do not contribute during the shooting phase

E) They are not anymore survivable than a regular assault marine with a SP.

Martel732 wrote:
DC have some serious problems, imo.

A) They must charge to be effective

B) There must be a target worthy of such a charge

C) They never score

D) They do not contribute during the shooting phase

E) They are not anymore survivable than a regular assault marine with a SP.

So what? They kill units in combat and that what matters.
DC are super killy.

 Tomten wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DC have some serious problems, imo.

A) They must charge to be effective

B) There must be a target worthy of such a charge

C) They never score

D) They do not contribute during the shooting phase

E) They are not anymore survivable than a regular assault marine with a SP.

So what? They kill units in combat and that what matters.
DC are super killy.

Well no it's not. He's pointed out 5 reasons why they are weak. I could go on:

F) They generally over-kill leaving them exposed to shooting

G) They're expensive for a unit that doesn't score and has one role

H) You have to pay for a delivery which makes them even more expensive - KO their transport and they'll die slowly as a relatively low priority target.

 Instinctual wrote:
They can be useful in harassment and denial roles

Example: 5 man squad, Sgt w/ melta bombs (105pts)

So, cheap, and very mobile. Hug cover and use them as a threat, more than a direct attack.

I find that the enemy will generally waste a disproportionate amount of firepower trying to kill this group, but if you're smart with you're cover usage you should be fine.

Pretty much this all the way.

Not every unit was designed to utterly crush and destroy other units. Assault Marines are amazing at distracting firepower when you give them a few neglible upgrades. When you use them as an interference tool and not as a hammer of insta win death, they become a highly competitve asset in most games.

 Lord PoPo wrote:
Title really says it all. Can assault squads from the "vanilla" SM codex be taken, designed, and implemented in a way that is actually useful to a competitive army?

A deep strike element, or some way to effect a unit on the far side of the board really helps in today's meta. This is especially true right now with daemons being as powerful of a codex as they are today.

 labmouse42 wrote:
A deep strike element, or some way to effect a unit on the far side of the board really helps in today's meta. This is especially true right now with daemons being as powerful of a codex as they are today.

I'm starting to think the same thing, how and when would you run them, if you were to run them?

Smurf ASM scatter 2D6 when they come in. I find BA assault marines crappy when deep striking, I can't imagine trying it with these guys.

with the abilty to move 12" you don't need to deep strike. You can get where you need to be by turn 5.

DC can shoot though, they are relentless, and they do have boltguns. Generic, but still nice to have.

Turn 5? Most of the games I play in are decided by turn 3. Paying 35 pts for a jumper with a boltgun is not my idea of efficient. Besides, its one less swing with that power axe and one less attack that gets furious charge applied to it.

I honestly don't know how I'd use non-scoring assault marines. I have a squad that hangs out with my attack bikes and Baal predator. Maybe they could serve a similar role for the smurfs, but that's a pricey escort.

Martel-There is no way you are EVER are going to convince me not to play DC with JP

Well, I'm not specifically talking to you, but the DC as they are currently implemented are a point sink abomination. 15 pts per jump pack is outrageous. With the existence of things like assault transports and open topped vehicles, these guys aren't even guaranteed to charge.

I might try them as babysitters for an aegis sometime. Five on foot with a couple power axes are a pretty nasty counter attack unit.

So I hope you are using DC for fluff reasons, not because you think they are good. Because they are not. They are actually arguably one of the worst units in the codex, which is saying something because that codex has taken a real kick to the balls.

Yeah, BA allies seems to be the way to go. If you already have the models just model or convert appropriatly and paint em red. Dont ally with SW for jump infantry though, ours sucks too