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What are your thoughts on kickstarter?
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Bad for wargaming
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Great for wargaming
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Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





I find its a great resource to find those small independent gamemakers and alternate model creators whom you can fund, play a few games with friends and enjoy what may be a one-off or a future game to play down the line. I'm a little less certain about larger companies like Mantic using it to fund their production runs. My FLGS can't afford to stock those little guys since many will be one hit wonders and I might be the only one in the area interested in them, but Mantic is something my FLGS can and does stock so it seems like I'm taking money away from them on something the producing company would make anyway.


Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in no
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






Most of my board game purchases in recent years have happened through Kickstarter. I haven't yet back any miniature games (although several of the board games I've back have had highly detailed playing pieces).
   
Made in us
Sister Oh-So Repentia



Illinois

Board games are great through Kickstarter. Terrain and game aids are great through Kickstarter. Wargames... I'm not so sure. Golem Arcana was a pretty big disaster, and without the promise of ongoing support, I think wargames are going to struggle on the platform.

2k poorly optimized Necrons.
1k poorly assembled Sisters.

DR:90S++G+MB--I+Pw40k16#+D++A+/aWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva





I haven't used it yet. Don't really have an opinion on it.

 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Orem, Utah

Kickstarter has been extremely good to 'big box' board games. I'm talking about games with higher production values that usually come in a box that costs $80+ and have minis.

Kickstarter hasn't been quite as good to miniatures wargames. There have been several that were Kickstarted, but most never really took off (Arena Rex is the big exception, and we don't yet know if Song of Fire and Ice will hold up for the long haul).

Still, these are games that likely would not have existed at all without Kickstarter, so it is overall positive.

Kickstarter has also been good to miniatures- both in board games and outside of that. The number of different styles of minis has boomed since KS hit, and I call that a big win.


The North American numbers indicated Kickstarter has not hurt LGS sales, but the LGS has to be a lot pickier about which board games they will stock- and they usually lean away from smaller Kickstarted games (since they likely already hit their audience with exclusives that the LGS cannot stock).

One thing- while board games have been booming, wargame sales have been fairly flat. It is very likely that the Kickstarter infused board game boom is taking players away from the tabletop wargames. Anecdotally, I've seen my wargaming group gradually move towards the high end miniatures board games coming out.

 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





TCS Midway

Kickstarter is hit and miss. There are some great projects, and generally I've been happy with what I've received.

However, it has 0 protection for the supporters which is terrible. It is venture capitalism for the masses, and unless you receive the pledged for item you get nothing.

That essentially runs the risk of turning it into a free money for nothing scam site. It will have to mature in some way or that will bite them at some point.

On time, on target, or the next one's free

Gesta Normannorum - A historical minis blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474587.page

 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver






MT

I voted bad for wargaming. It is just a bunch of games nobody plays (at least in my area).

orks 10000+ points
"SHHH. My common sense is tingling."--Deadpoool
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote: ...it doesn't matter how many times I make a false statement, it will still be false.

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User



Charlotte, NC

I love it. I'm kind of addicted. I think it is nothing but good, as long as people hold these businesses to account.
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





It's tricky in that I think the general hope is that after fulfilling a KS you'll have money left over to buy units for distribution to retail. It's in the stores and clubs with people playing and hopping on the bandwagon where the real money is. But people tend to expect lots in the box at 3x the price to produce it all, rather than 5x (the usual retail price), and I get the impression that it lacks the traditional retail model that allowed products like Warhammer and BattleTech to flourish back in the day. Between people wanting more 'free' stuff and without supporting the distributors and retailers that help make a game 'live' rather than dead, it's no wonder it's a better platform for a boardgame than a miniature wargame. Those you can open, play a few times, and then carefully file away in your collection. A miniature wargame needs to be the kernel of a hobby if it's going to be live.
   
Made in fi
Calculating Commissar







I like Kickstarter for miniatures specifically. Often, a campaign creator already has a "green" or a 3d render ready so you know what you're getting better than with a computer game or short film etc. I've backed a handful of campaigns like this over the years, the biggest pledge being for West Wind's "Empire of the Dead" steampunk Victorians.

Several aspects of the crowdfunding ecosystem, such as pumping out stretch goals and scope creep bloating successful campaigns, do have an overall negative effect on the industry as a whole, and the success of an individual campaign, so I'm not entirely thrilled about how prevalent this purchase model has become.

The supply does not get to make the demands. 
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut






I voted neutral mostly because although it can be good for small companies to start with a concept of a line of miniatures, for example, it can quickly become a way to make lots of money early and then sit back and prioritize actual retail rather than the investors.

It is not a problem specific to kickstarters and you can see lots of companies using things like patreon or other crowdfunding/subscription websites to make money, despite their business being already well established.

If you have a project, show some investment from your side, deliver your project and then carry on without using crowdfunding all the time, then it is great. If you expect all your projects to be funded by customers directly then you don't have any real control on what you send into the stores afterwards, as pleasing crowds of investors doesn't necessarily allow your unique ideas to flow, nor does it allow them to reach a retail stage.

I have been thinking of doing something like a kickstarter in the future for my own project, as a long term thing, but obviously I won't go there with only renders of extremely beautiful models (lets assume for a moment I am really an amazing modeller ) and expect people to bring my personal project from 0 to 100%
Being sensible enough to know you have to invest on your own, ensure that the supply chain can actually deliver in quantity (to avoid taking years to deliver a project) and no expect people to throw money at you for nothing, actually ensures I won't start such a project until I know I can do it. I have seen many companies which haven't delivered their campaigns and yet have started 2 or 3 more campaigns, hoarding money that is spent way before people get their rewards (if they get it).
In my case I would still produce the same line of miniatures without a successful crowdfunding, it would likely just take more time and be a part-time job, rather than a full company

(DISCLAIMER: no publicity intended, especially because there is nothing to publicize at the moment, just trying to make a point)

   
Made in gb
Malicious Mandrake




Not so much neutral as... irrelevant.

I've not seen anything that says "WOW! MUST have..."

Seen too many stories of - paid up, got nothing....
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block







I'm neutral towards them. It's great when a project pans out by bad when a project fails. It puts the role of investor into the hands of the consumer, which is its greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time. I don't have the disposable income necessary to fund kickstarters as a hobby, but if I see a project that piques my interest, I wish them the best of luck.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





As a 3D printer I love kickstarter and patreon because it allows me to get cool content/files that I would normally have to make. Love em!

Come get some WAAAAG Today, for only 3 payments of $39.95, Call now! (800-273-8255) 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




United Kingdom

I'm sort of Neutral about them. Sometimes I sit on the fence wondering which way a kickstarter could go.

Do I trust my hard earned cash in a project that has not as yet got established?. The other problem I have with them is a nagging question of "Will they deliver".

Once they get established as a proper company with deliverable stock then I will happily BUY BUY BUY. But only what I want and need.


Remember not to wash my brush out in coffee cup today. 
   
Made in gb
Malicious Mandrake




Mixed.

Pros:
some great ideas.
Some tempting prices

Cons:
Every project seems to be significantly delayed (random dip "due autumn 2017" update Jan 2021 "we have covid...." (but at least they were still communicating
Poor business planning/ money runs out / product never appears

On balance, seems like a long shot gamble. If I think, wow, NEED that, and can afford to never see the money or the product, then maybe, but so far, no.....

   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Well I find they are a catch 22. Sure they are great for up and coming small companies too get their products developed. And that’s cool. But it really hurts the FLGS, they don’t carry the bulk of these games. And if people get into them and bring them too the game store they ain’t buying from the game shop. Witch closes game shops, there by hurting the local gaming community. Kinda like printing models sure it’s great for the person, bad for community
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Orem, Utah

dogboy311 wrote:
Well I find they are a catch 22. Sure they are great for up and coming small companies too get their products developed. And that’s cool. But it really hurts the FLGS, they don’t carry the bulk of these games. And if people get into them and bring them too the game store they ain’t buying from the game shop. Witch closes game shops, there by hurting the local gaming community. Kinda like printing models sure it’s great for the person, bad for community


Game shops often complain about direct sales via Kickstarter, but the numbers tell a different story. Hobby store board game sales have grown substantially since Kickstarter began.

It seems to me that Kickstarter has invigorated a lot of interest in board games which has translated into a lot of hobby channel sales- not necessarily of the games that were available on Kickstarter, but does that matter when the numbers are still going up?

The issue now is that distributors have turned to a "churn and burn" model. They expect most board game sales in the first week and distribution will stop stocking games very quickly afterward (due to limited space and the sheer magnitude of new games showing up). Obviously that does not apply to the biggest hits, and it does not seem to apply to games Asmodee produces. But companies without Asmodee or Hasbro backing them (or their own distribution like GW has) have a much harder time getting onto the retail shelves than they used to.

This means that many of these companies have no viable distribution option other than direct sales and crowdfunding. Hence the increase in games that are only available via Kickstarter (which often includes some direct sales via webstores). Even Privateer Press and Steve Jackson games have taken to Kickstarter because the distribution situation demands it.



- Also, the numbers do not back up the game store owner complaints. While they complain about not being able to sell some specific games or KS exclusive stuff, the reported numbers show that their board game sales have actually been on the rise since Kickstarter fired up. Possibly this is because Kickstarter excitement has driven people to try out non-KS board games and maybe even got more people into the market. But whatever the case, Kickstarter's rise to prominence has been accompanied by hobby store growth in sales- despite all of those dire predictions.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Here's some thoughts on KS:

https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/board-game/opinion/board-game-startup-dream-job-nightmare?fbclid=IwAR0ocTPQ9epuGS93B7gdMObuQMkmEDMTc9Ef-8Iuk6doXurlX6HfMm00IXA
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 odinsgrandson wrote:
dogboy311 wrote:
Well I find they are a catch 22. Sure they are great for up and coming small companies too get their products developed. And that’s cool. But it really hurts the FLGS, they don’t carry the bulk of these games. And if people get into them and bring them too the game store they ain’t buying from the game shop. Witch closes game shops, there by hurting the local gaming community. Kinda like printing models sure it’s great for the person, bad for community


Game shops often complain about direct sales via Kickstarter, but the numbers tell a different story. Hobby store board game sales have grown substantially since Kickstarter began.

It seems to me that Kickstarter has invigorated a lot of interest in board games which has translated into a lot of hobby channel sales- not necessarily of the games that were available on Kickstarter, but does that matter when the numbers are still going up?

The issue now is that distributors have turned to a "churn and burn" model. They expect most board game sales in the first week and distribution will stop stocking games very quickly afterward (due to limited space and the sheer magnitude of new games showing up). Obviously that does not apply to the biggest hits, and it does not seem to apply to games Asmodee produces. But companies without Asmodee or Hasbro backing them (or their own distribution like GW has) have a much harder time getting onto the retail shelves than they used to.

This means that many of these companies have no viable distribution option other than direct sales and crowdfunding. Hence the increase in games that are only available via Kickstarter (which often includes some direct sales via webstores). Even Privateer Press and Steve Jackson games have taken to Kickstarter because the distribution situation demands it.



- Also, the numbers do not back up the game store owner complaints. While they complain about not being able to sell some specific games or KS exclusive stuff, the reported numbers show that their board game sales have actually been on the rise since Kickstarter fired up. Possibly this is because Kickstarter excitement has driven people to try out non-KS board games and maybe even got more people into the market. But whatever the case, Kickstarter's rise to prominence has been accompanied by hobby store growth in sales- despite all of those dire predictions.



That’s fine and dandy for board games. But don’t tell me this has no effect on game shops, that’s just not true. Most local game shops around me anyway do not carry any of the Kickstarter games. And I’m not sure the owners of the local games shop would like the idea of people using their space for stuff they don’t sell. Kinda like don’t bring your printed models too the game shop. I understand most people on this forum are stuck online, but if we don’t support our local games stores we are up #$& creek.
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Late reply, but Game Kastle, a chain of stores mostly in the SF Bay Area (nice owner and employees too) regularly stocks up KS paint supplies (eg. the dropper you put on Citadel paints) and boardgames (eg. Zombicide, Cthulhu Wars).

As for supporting game stores... Magic is pretty much it, with six events over three nights per week. Boardgames, which would include *all* boardgames, both retail and KS, is two nights a week.

https://www.gamekastle.com/stores/redwoodcity/?m=events

Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in ca
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds






Kickstarters are mostly a scam. Some dude raised nearly 20k to provide backers with, wait for it, 3d printer files. You don't even get any models for your backing, just access to files. Talk about pulling the wool over peoples eyes! Then you have actual companies with registered IPs pulling funding from the fanbase and not delivering because "covid". If an idea is going to sell and make money, then you can convince investors to fund you, if not then obviously your idea wasn't so great. Kickstarter sidesteps that process and says if I can part a fool and his money, then it's a good idea. How many kickstarters get funding and then languish for years because the creator took your money and paid his gas bill? Plenty.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




It has become untenable for gaming groups other than consumerism hype.

Games take quite a while to deliver and the most often thing I've heard as people hit the 30+ age-wise is "too many games"

If you manage to get a well designed/supported game, have a small group that will play it with any reliable consistently it is good (and that's super rare) otherwise it becomes a dust collector on the shelf.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

I have back just over 100 projects - almost all of which have delivered - many however a long time after fulfilment date

I have not been (thus far) disapointed with any backed that have delivered and quite enjoyed backing smaller companies.

My main advice for anyone backing projects is to not to expect delivery ontime and be pleasently supriosed when/if they do!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/24 13:44:02


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Hairesy wrote:
Kickstarters are mostly a scam. Some dude raised nearly 20k to provide backers with, wait for it, 3d printer files. You don't even get any models for your backing, just access to files.



And?

I mean what do you expect? Or do you think everyone working in video games, music, film, writing and almost any other market that uses digital distribution and digital products to just make things for free? A lot of comics and books are now sold only online and might only have a physical release once in a blue moon (sometimes as a result of a kickstarter being used to fund an initial print run). Are you going to argue that unless its a physical comic/book, that the comic should be free?

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

"For Wargaming" is a tough one. There's several different entities at play here:

Good For Wargamers?
Heck Yeah, KS's almost always offer better value than MSRP and despite feeling dominated by big companies, it does often expose buyers to products they otherwise might miss. There have been some failures and delays are par for the course, but these days it's not too hard to google and see which producers/creators have a good track record and gauge risk accordingly.

Good For Wargame Companies?
Heck yeah, KS's allow companies to bring new products to market relatively risk-free, knowing in advance how much a given product is going to bring in at initial launch. Not having to guess whether a product will cover it's production costs and make a profit is HUGE. KS's popularity also acts as a venue for getting products in front of willing buyers.

Good for wargame shops?
Mixed bag . Lot's of KS's are trying to reach shops with retailer pledges and such. It's still a big chunk of cash going direct to the manufacturer and bypassing the FLGS, but for indie products especially it's debatable how much of that $ would go to a local shop.

Good for "Wargaming" as a whole?
Mixed bag. More products and a growing industry is good for "the hobby" and for hobbyists, but as mentioned above, the KS model is not generally good for Shops

Panic wrote:yeah,

They enable fledgling and small companies to put something out that is beyond their finacnial capabilities.
Like
Sedation wars by studio mcVey
..


Interesting to see Sedition Wars on the list of positives. I think it's more of a cautionary tale. IIRC, there was serios dissatisfaction with the produced game in terms of the rules which, IIRC, ended up needing significant revision and the miniatures which had major mold lines didn't assemble easily.

This ended up being a boon to me when I picked up several copies of the base game for under $30 and endured the grim assembly to make a nice looking Sci-fi army. However, how many folks who forked over $80 for the KS were pleased with what they got for their money and then to see almost the same product being blown out at $25 not long after...?

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My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
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