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Corollax wrote:
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." ~ Christopher Hitchens

That goes for your argument too.

That said, if FW units enter widespread use as you forecast, Vultures will become obsolete as people bring out the cheap and effective Interceptor and Skyfire weapons. So in a competent meta, they either aren't allowed or they aren't effective-- damned if you do, damned if you don't! The only time when Vultures are really good is when Forge World is legal but people either don't know what options are available or can't afford to buy the counters, and relying on your opponents not knowing things or not being able to buy the correct models to negate your army is a poor tactic indeed!

 Kingsley wrote:

Corollax wrote:
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." ~ Christopher Hitchens

That goes for your argument too.

I'm not the one making the assertion. I just stated a personal observation, with an implicit invitation for anyone else to do likewise.

 Kingsley wrote:

Corollax wrote:
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." ~ Christopher Hitchens

That goes for your argument too.

That said, if FW units enter widespread use as you forecast, Vultures will become obsolete as people bring out the cheap and effective Interceptor and Skyfire weapons. So in a competent meta, they either aren't allowed or they aren't effective-- damned if you do, damned if you don't! The only time when Vultures are really good is when Forge World is legal but people either don't know what options are available or can't afford to buy the counters, and relying on your opponents not knowing things or not being able to buy the correct models to negate your army is a poor tactic indeed!

Hah.

No.

Read Imperial Armor: Aeronautica.

Their AA units are hardly gamebreaking. You have no idea what you're talking about in this area.

FW balances the game. Doesn't break certain aspects of it; like non-FW users always seem to assume.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I think the Punisher may also have a place in the 6th edition environment, though it certainly didn't in 5th edition.

IMO not with Vultures around to carry the punisher cannons. The LR Punisher's BS 3 is just too much of a drawback, half of those 20 shots will miss, some will fail to wound, and then more will fail to get through armor saves. That's just a lot of points for a unit that is really only effective against a very narrow range of targets, and not even all that impressive when it does work.

Vultures aren't allowed in most tournaments and in many pickup games.

Peregrine has a habit of taking threads wildly off-topic by assuming that everyone in them plays Forgeworld. Best to just ignore it.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Corollax wrote:
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." ~ Christopher Hitchens

That goes for your argument too.

That said, if FW units enter widespread use as you forecast, Vultures will become obsolete as people bring out the cheap and effective Interceptor and Skyfire weapons. So in a competent meta, they either aren't allowed or they aren't effective-- damned if you do, damned if you don't! The only time when Vultures are really good is when Forge World is legal but people either don't know what options are available or can't afford to buy the counters, and relying on your opponents not knowing things or not being able to buy the correct models to negate your army is a poor tactic indeed!

Hah.

No.

Read Imperial Armor: Aeronautica.

Their AA units are hardly gamebreaking. You have no idea what you're talking about in this area.

FW balances the game. Doesn't break certain aspects of it; like non-FW users always seem to assume.

Hey if that's your opinion that's fine, you're entitled to it as much as the next person.
I personally feel that it imbalances the game.
Some Codexes get alot of love, some get diddly.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Corollax wrote:
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." ~ Christopher Hitchens

That goes for your argument too.

That said, if FW units enter widespread use as you forecast, Vultures will become obsolete as people bring out the cheap and effective Interceptor and Skyfire weapons. So in a competent meta, they either aren't allowed or they aren't effective-- damned if you do, damned if you don't! The only time when Vultures are really good is when Forge World is legal but people either don't know what options are available or can't afford to buy the counters, and relying on your opponents not knowing things or not being able to buy the correct models to negate your army is a poor tactic indeed!

Hah.

No.

Read Imperial Armor: Aeronautica.

Their AA units are hardly gamebreaking. You have no idea what you're talking about in this area.

FW balances the game. Doesn't break certain aspects of it; like non-FW users always seem to assume.

Reading Imperial Armor: Aeronautica is what made this obvious to me. Once you see people who make heavy investments in Sabre Defense Platforms, Hyperios Air Defense Launchers, and the like-- units that are great regardless of whether or not Flyers are in the game-- taking Flyers will be a risky move. This doesn't even include the obviously ridiculous errors, such as Mortis-pattern Dreadnoughts-- already a strong unit-- getting Skyfire/Interceptor for free.

I own and love multiple FW models and upgrade kits, but I think their rules are laughably balanced and not ready for prime time. It's clear from GW's Codexes that Skyfire/Interceptor are not intended to be proliferated to the extent that FW does, and unfortunately FW is hence a "no-go" on basic elements of game balance for 6th edition.

Yeah, reading up on some of the IA stuff, I feel the static long ranged skyfire interceptor stuff is under costed. Hydra defense platforms are strictly better and cheaper for their task than hydra vehicles and can fire on ground targets thanks to interceptor. Same with hyperios platforms, though not to the extent of the ig stuff.

What is worse, heaven help you if you don't play ig. Ia1 second Ed really boosts only one army. Eldar get, what, a 6 shot s6 aa gun for 180+? If you allow fw you give only a few armies an actual bonus.

Oddly enough, in IA1:2e (I have decided upon an acronym at last!) the hydra platforms do not have interceptor. This could be a simple mistake though. Technically, it is more up to date than IA:A. I'm sure some arguments will be caused over this.

 Trickstick wrote:
Oddly enough, in IA1:2e (I have decided upon an acronym at last!) the hydra platforms do not have interceptor. This could be a simple mistake though. Technically, it is more up to date than IA:A. I'm sure some arguments will be caused over this.

Same price?

Bah, I really need to get second edition... So many little changes from aeronautica and ia1. Point still stands that fw books currently heavily favor ig, unless they added other races in the second edition?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Corollax wrote:
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." ~ Christopher Hitchens

That goes for your argument too.

That said, if FW units enter widespread use as you forecast, Vultures will become obsolete as people bring out the cheap and effective Interceptor and Skyfire weapons. So in a competent meta, they either aren't allowed or they aren't effective-- damned if you do, damned if you don't! The only time when Vultures are really good is when Forge World is legal but people either don't know what options are available or can't afford to buy the counters, and relying on your opponents not knowing things or not being able to buy the correct models to negate your army is a poor tactic indeed!

Hah.

No.

Read Imperial Armor: Aeronautica.

Their AA units are hardly gamebreaking. You have no idea what you're talking about in this area.

FW balances the game. Doesn't break certain aspects of it; like non-FW users always seem to assume.

Hey if that's your opinion that's fine, you're entitled to it as much as the next person.
I personally feel that it imbalances the game.
Some Codexes get alot of love, some get diddly.

You're entitled to opinions on forgeworld where it pertains. Derailing threads every chance you get to pimp the glory of forgeworld is kind of against the forum rules. I'd love to debate forgeworld some, so I'll make a thread for it.

-Matt

TheCaptain wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Oddly enough, in IA1:2e (I have decided upon an acronym at last!) the hydra platforms do not have interceptor. This could be a simple mistake though. Technically, it is more up to date than IA:A. I'm sure some arguments will be caused over this.

Same price?

Yup.

DevianID wrote:Bah, I really need to get second edition... So many little changes from aeronautica and ia1. Point still stands that fw books currently heavily favor ig, unless they added other races in the second edition?

Well it is called Forge World, not Earth Caste Workshop or Mek Boy Gubbinz.

DevianID wrote:
Bah, I really need to get second edition... So many little changes from aeronautica and ia1. Point still stands that fw books currently heavily favor ig, unless they added other races in the second edition?

Depends on the book, honestly; Guard has more stuff than everyone else, yes, but Eldar have some really useful things from IA11: Corsair infantry (145pts for two Jet Pack missile launchers at BS4), Wasps (+25pts over a normal War Walker for Jet Pack moves and BS4), Warp Hunters (BS4 Falcon D-cannon at 125pts base), and the Lynx (absurdly cheap for 2 S D 5" templates).

Don't Marines get a drop pod that allows a dreadnaught to assault after deep strike? And that Land Raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons, ceramic armour plate and 25 transport capacity?

 Testify wrote:
Don't Marines get a drop pod that allows a dreadnaught to assault after deep strike? And that Land Raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons, ceramic armour plate and 25 transport capacity?

When are you even going to fill a Spartan to its full capacity?

And yes, you can assault out of DS with a Lucius Pod. You have to take a dangerous terrain test though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Don't Marines get a drop pod that allows a dreadnaught to assault after deep strike? And that Land Raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons, ceramic armour plate and 25 transport capacity?

When are you even going to fill a Spartan to its full capacity?

And yes, you can assault out of DS with a Lucius Pod. You have to take a dangerous terrain test though.

When you have terminators.

25 transport capacity? My god, it's the only thing that works! Where else am I going to find a pimpmobile to to squeeze my ten paladins and primarch into?

Corollax wrote:
25 transport capacity? My god, it's the only thing that works! Where else am I going to find a pimpmobile to to squeeze my ten paladins and primarch into?

In a thunderhawk

I want to thank everyone for the good advice. After giving my local meta some thought I've decided to pick the LC/HB Ecterminator that Vaktathi suggested, because AV 14 and even 13 arn't that common here,but there are dark and craftworld elder around, with 3 Necron players using at least 2 10man squads of warriors as well as tau with decent numbers of FW, while the MEQs usually ride in tin cans, which I need to pop before the palsama can get to work. And after playing the LRBT for a few months, everyone spreads out or huggs cover, so i rarely get more than 3 models on a hit. So I've taken the Extermintor to help with transports (ACs and LC) and 4+ infantry (HBs/ACs).
As luck would have it I faced one of the necron players today, and he brought a Monolith and some ghost arks, scarabs and 40+ warriors with rez orb lords. Was a really close game all the way to turn 7, had it ended on turn 5 or 6 it would have been a win for me, but by the end of turn 7 the remaining 10 warriors and lord managed to push me off the objective. The Exterminator was great this game, even tough I was rolling quite bad with it (missed all but one out of 5 LC shots, and even with TL the ACs scored just a hit on turn 2). It did exaxtly what I took it for consistently despite some subpar rolling, helped me to take care of an ark and wipe 2 squads of warriors, a welcome change to the LRBT which tended to scatter way off.